Star Wars Star Wars Discussion Thread - LET THE PAST D-! Oh, wait, nevermind

[Skallagrim]

That was one of the most dumbest, utterly moronic things the Old Jedi did. And, thousands on thousands of years later, it backfired on them massively.

Of course, this only happened in Disney canon, where everybody is a complete moron.

In the original continuity, the Jedi temple was built on the site of a natural Force nexus, and there was no Dark Side influence involved at all.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

The main obstacle in the long term(!) that I see is -- as I said -- the same one that ultimately under-mined the Roman Empire as well. It derives from the basic set-up of the (and indeed any) empire: it is a wealth pump.

Eh, sort of.

An empire can certainly be a wealth pump, but I'd primarily say it is one polity that rules over multiple other polities and peoples, usually via conquest. Any system can be imperial in that respect, it's just that empires are more aggressive and not in total denial about it.

Rome was ultimately destroyed by its Civil Wars, by ambitious general after ambitious general declaring themselves Emperor and ripping the empire apart. And that was largely a result of the succession system being a mess which, conveniently enough, the European monarchies which came after them avoided via monarchy and primogeniture.

The Dominate was an attempt at fixing the issue but honestly it just made it worse. Rome didn't swallow the monarchy pill and paid a heavy price for it.

Of course, this only happened in Disney canon, where everybody is a complete moron.

In the original continuity, the Jedi temple was built on the site of a natural Force nexus, and there was no Dark Side influence involved at all.

Wasn't it that Palpatine, due to being a gifted Sith Lord, was able to mask his presence? Even then, the Jedi were well aware of Dark Side shenanigans in their general vicinity. They just couldn't pin down the source until it was too late.

 

[Batrix2070]

Wasn't it that Palpatine, due to being a gifted Sith Lord, was able to mask his presence? Even then, the Jedi were well aware of Dark Side shenanigans in their general vicinity. They just couldn't pin down the source until it was too late.

This is how it was originally before Disney and its great ideas came along.

 

[Bacle]

Of course, this only happened in Disney canon, where everybody is a complete moron.

In the original continuity, the Jedi temple was built on the site of a natural Force nexus, and there was no Dark Side influence involved at all.

No, this is old canon; it was there even when the NJO came out.

Not sure when exactly the Sith temple being underneath the Jedi Temple became canon, but it was long before Disney got the IP.

 

[Skallagrim]

No, this is old canon; it was there even when the NJO came out.

Not sure when exactly the Sith temple being underneath the Jedi Temple became canon, but it was long before Disney got the IP.

That's not accurate as far as I know. The whole idea was first entered into canon in 2014, in a Disney Canon novel. There was an idea to explore this in the original continuity, specifically in an arc of the The Clone Wars, but those episodes were never made (nor released in an alternate form, nor even scripted).

If you can tell me where this idea was actually used in the original continuity, I'll happily stand corrected. But as far as I'm aware, this idea of a Sith temple on Coruscant was not canonical pre-Disney.

 

[Bacle]

That's not accurate as far as I know. The whole idea was first entered into canon in 2014, in a Disney Canon novel. There was an idea to explore this in the original continuity, specifically in an arc of the The Clone Wars, but those episodes were never made (nor released in an alternate form, nor even scripted).

If you can tell me where this idea was actually used in the original continuity, I'll happily stand corrected. But as far as I'm aware, this idea was never canonical pre-Disney.

Well, as you said, it was an aborted arc for the Clone Wars, and during the NJO they did touch on the 'Force-well spring' under the temple when Luke infil'd Vong-occupied Courscant.

I had thought the idea of their being an old Sith Temple under the Jedi Temple was from one of the old cross-sections/encyclopedias/source books back in the day, but going through Wookiepedia I'm drawing blanks on where the idea actually came from.

 

[Skallagrim]

Well, as you said, it was an aborted arc for the Clone Wars, and during the NJO they did touch on the 'Force-well spring' under the temple when Luke infil'd Vong-occupied Courscant.

I had thought the idea of their being an old Sith Temple under the Jedi Temple was from one of the old cross-sections/encyclopedias/source books back in the day, but going through Wookiepedia I'm drawing blanks on where the idea actually came from.

The Force well-spring thing was definitely in Traitor, but was that specifically a Dark Side thing? I remember it more as Stover making a point about the Force being older than the Jedi, and not 'belonging' to any tradition. (This idea was referenced in one of the comics -- Dawn of the Jedi? -- with there being a 'holy place' or something long before the Temple was built.)

As far as I know, the Sith were never part of this, and looking it up, the idea for Clone Wars was alsno not yet refined, mentioning only "maybe even a Sith temple" as a possibility. This same idea also has kaiju fossils under the temple, so... make of that what you will. Sounds wild to me!

One thing I'm sure of, though: the specific stupodity of using the Jedi temple as a 'stopper' for a Sith power-source underneath came from Luceno, in Tarkin. It was explicitly his idea, so that can't have been here before. (It's a pretty cool idea when considered in a vacuüm, but in context, it makes the Jedi so fucking dumb.)

 

[ShadowArxxy]

But all the anti-Palpatine people (both Prequels and later) talk about liberty and democracy. The Republic was never democratic and liberty was fairly questionable most of the time as well.

I think it's fair to point out that the "anti-Palpatine people" were a motley Alliance with a wide variety of different motives. Leia Organa was certainly a sincere political idealist (and less tempered by pragmatism than her late father), whereas Mon Mothma was much more questionable (even though that explicit sub-plot ended up being essentially abandoned unresolved in canon). Then you had many outright criminals, with the likes of Solo and Calrissian being *exceptions* in terms of being pretty good men underneath the scoundrel, and those just out for some combination of justice and revenge for injustices done to their families and friends, etc, etc.

 

[ShadowsOfParadox]

but going through Wookiepedia I'm drawing blanks on where the idea actually came from.

Fanfics.

The idea was pretty popular is various fanfics well before 2014.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

so this is off-topic, but within the topic Star Wars so hopefully, it's not a derail. my mind remembered one of if not my first OC and fanfiction. Now I know for a fact that the story was BAD. It was essentially putting my character into the OT kingdom hearts style except even worse and more haphazardly. I'm not going to try and redux that particular fanfic, but I am trying to essentially reboot my character.

So essentially my character: He was eight years old and his sister was about 15 when Order 66 occurred. His mother was a Jedi knight who fell in love with a young bounty hunter from the outer realm. she was essentially able to hide around things by essentially taking in the kids to the temple herself. (Plus contrary to what Anakin fears most of the Jedi isn't a *Hee haw Hee haw Hee haw* when it comes to attachments.

Vader defeats my character's mom at the sacking of the temple. (Turns out she's alive and was brainwashed Winter Soldier style) and the two kids manage to escape in the chaos thanks to her dad.


the story proper begins in 1 BBY My character grows to hate Vader and when he grows up he becomes a Sith Hunter (hunting down Insquistors and Dark side adepts. Meanwhile, this whole time he seems to have gone Dark Jedi black cloak, red lightsaber has no qualms about using powers like force choke and force crush, and he's really aggressive in combat. He keeps attacking imperial targets in hopes of drawing Vader out (much to the frustration of his father) eventually the empire sends a mysterious inquisitor that turns out to be his mom, the two reunite and she helps him draw Vader out. (although this turns out to all be a trap by Vader as it turns out she was still under the Empire's control.) My character gets his chance to fight Vader and while he does impress Vader and puts up a good fight, it's obviously not enough.

Much to everyone's surprise though Vader decides to spare both my character and his mom because she "Reminds him of someone he once knew *Cough cough Padme cough cough* but warns my character to "Pray they never meet again." Vader's told that there is some good in him he'd be able to see if he bothered to look which Vader deflects saying "If you knew me as well as you thought, you'd think differently." My character's mom confronts him telling him that it was never his destiny to defeat Vader. My charecter ask who is...cut to Luke Skywalker looking at the Binary sunset.

The big question everyone asks my character is how he's able to give into his anger and his rage so without giving into the dark side. The answer is...he doesn't. He's very much a dark Jedi the difference is he consciously makes the choice to not be a genocidal maniac and live by a code of honor. It goes back to it's not a question of light or dark, but what you decide to do as a person.

Thoughts, or suggestions?

 

[Zyobot]

Don't think Maul ever figured it out, but still.

 

[Typhonis]

That was one of the most dumbest, utterly moronic things the Old Jedi did. And, thousands on thousands of years later, it backfired on them massively.

Nothing is ever as simple as that. At first, it could have been, we have a dark side nexus here. Put some Jedi on it to watch the damn thing so no one uses it. Later you had a more permanent dwelling. Still later after a disaster or two the Jedi need a new base of operation. They look at the outpost on Coruscant and decide on it because it is at the crossroads of the Galaxy. Plus they could guard the nexus better. Then they lost the information a Nexus was there.

What started as a good idea, for the time grew due to scale creep and other 'good ideas'.

 

[DarthOne]

Don't think Maul ever figured it out, but still.

Of course not, Maul died on Naboo long before Vader and the Empire.

 

[Zyobot]

Of course not, Maul died on Naboo long before Vader and the Empire.

Eh, I‘m more willing to humor the retcons here. Granted, Maul would probably on realize it by spectating from the Netherworld, assuming his individuality stays intact somehow.

 

[DarthOne]

Eh, I‘m more willing to humor the retcons here. Granted, Maul would probably on realize it by spectating from the Netherworld, assuming his individuality stays intact somehow.

I’m not. Mostly because of how, like with quite a few other things, TCW messed with his characterization and lore.

 

[Zyobot]

I’m not. Mostly because of how, like with quite a few other things, TCW messed with his characterization and lore.

Sorry you feel that way.

But, then again, I have nostalgia bias from watching TCW as a kid, though I wasn’t as enamored with Rebels.

 

[DarthOne]

Sorry you feel that way.

But, then again, I have nostalgia bias from watching TCW as a kid, though I wasn’t as enamored with Rebels.

Hey, as long as you can admit it.

 

[Zyobot]

Hey, as long as you can admit it.

Yeah, while there are retcons that eventually “grew” on me, I didn’t necessarily like everything new, either.

As such, I’m thinking most fanfics I write will cherry-pick elements of both continuities that I somewhat enjoy/tolerate, while ignoring/downplaying elements that I don’t. (e.g.: Occasional allusions to the presence of Yuuzhan Vong scouts, for fics set before the war.) In fact, I have at least one idea that’s a full-fledged AU where both continuities are done away with after the POD, though it'd probably be best if I elaborated in a future post.

 

[Typhonis]

Th Vong are usable you just have to alter them slightly. Think less individual and more like a Hive Fleet incursion, only they are prone to fighting each other over resources. Because THAT is how they see everything. A resource to be harvested and exploited. The dead are a resource.

 

[Bacle]

I think seeing more of what Nom Anor was doing in the political/social scene of the galaxy as far back as the Dark Empire days would be interesting.

And if Vong Scouts have been here since at least the time of KOTOR times, how many other conflicts have the fomented to keep the galaxy divided while the main fleet approached.