Star Trek Star Trek Picard Discussion Thread

D

Deleted member 88

Guest
"Hard thing to do" is underselling it. This would be like if Jesus was actually an alien, and the whole crucifixion and fading into the heavens thing was a result of other aliens coming in to get rid of him and fake his disappearance in order to "fix the damage".
They were successful weren't they? And isn't that all that matters? The Ferengi broke the culture, and Voyager did its best to correct the damage.

There is a difference between charity in your daily life when it costs nothing but some of the time and money you have in abundance, and charity when you are unexpectedly dropped out in the middle of the siberian tundra or some other equally inhospitable environment with next to nothing. It is entirely reasonable to have a different set of expectations for what someone has a duty to do based on thier own circumstances.

Arguably, compassion would really only be a virtue in the DQ, precisely because doing so is hard and costly, but that's precisely why being compassionate is not considered a moral obligation.
The Devore are clearly not nice people. And its unlikely the telepathic species they were interning could expect very much that wasn't bad. Also Janeway wasn't trying to overthrow their government or something but help them escape Devore space. Compassion and charity would be the byword here.

It was. Tom and Harry were trading for whateverium on some planet, were accused of a crime, and got tossed in jail as a result.
They were framed or otherwise believed to have committed some sort of terrorist attack. Voyager intervened and caught the actual terrorists, brought it to the attention of the authorities, and Tom and Harry managed to get out pretty well on their own with Voyager's assistance. That was an issue of Voyager becoming enmeshed in local conflicts.

A cursory knowledge of what a part of a culture was like 200 years ago is probably more likely to be detrimental to any future exploration than anything else. Imagine if you were going to try and negotiate with the US, and all you had to go on was what someone saw in a weeklong business trip to new york in 1820, and half of it was an account of them trying to get their partner out of the NYPD drunk tank.
Amusement aside, that could actually be quite valuable. Janeway got more than that. She got information as to the local politics, the location of nebulae and star systems, valuable resources, who was friendly and who wasn't, what anomalies to avoid, which ones to study and so on. Chakotay himself says they have got enough information to keep scientists busy for decades and janeway is a scientist at heart. And that intelligence was valuable, in the novelverse it was used to identify both the strength of the Borg collective, as well as very threats and enemies the federation would face.
 

Battlegrinder

Someday we will win, no matter what it takes.
Moderator
Staff Member
Founder
Obozny
They were successful weren't they? And isn't that all that matters? The Ferengi broke the culture, and Voyager did its best to correct the damage.

Given that Voyager lost out on a chance to make it home, something that cost them the lives of several crew members later on....I would say no, they were not successful.

The Devore are clearly not nice people. And its unlikely the telepathic species they were interning could expect very much that wasn't bad. Also Janeway wasn't trying to overthrow their government or something but help them escape Devore space. Compassion and charity would be the byword here.

The galaxy is full of not nice people doing bad things, I don't see how that gives Janway a mandate to get involved, let alone one that overules her duties to her own crew and ship.

They were framed or otherwise believed to have committed some sort of terrorist attack. Voyager intervened and caught the actual terrorists, brought it to the attention of the authorities, and Tom and Harry managed to get out pretty well on their own with Voyager's assistance. That was an issue of Voyager becoming enmeshed in local conflicts.

Yes, precisely. They should have, as I said, just stayed on the ship, made their trade deals over the comm, and stayed off the planet.

Amusement aside, that could actually be quite valuable. Janeway got more than that. She got information as to the local politics, the location of nebulae and star systems, valuable resources, who was friendly and who wasn't, what anomalies to avoid, which ones to study and so on. Chakotay himself says they have got enough information to keep scientists busy for decades and janeway is a scientist at heart. And that intelligence was valuable, in the novelverse it was used to identify both the strength of the Borg collective, as well as very threats and enemies the federation would face.

I feel like you're getting a bit off track here. I didn't say that Voyager got nothing of value, I said they put themselves at excessive risk for no gain by getting too involved with local powers, and that the information they got from that was not worth the risk. Star charts and the like are useful, diplomatic contacts with nations that will have changed massively by the time you next get in touch with them are not.
 

Shipmaster Sane

You have been weighed
Starfleet personell are not civilians living out their personal lives with no responsibilities that happen to be in space, by joining starfleet and serving on a ship you've essentially made a public lifelong promise to become deeply embroiled in the difficulties of any random ball of tentacles with the capacity to ask for your help directly.
 
D

Deleted member 88

Guest
Yeah, as a Starfleet officer you can't just keep your peace away from shit. Your obligated to be involved, in science and exploration and diplomacy.
 

Lanmandragon

Well-known member
Which, as you note, people with a different interpretation of the Prime Directive would be displeased about.

The PD can be pretty evil a doctrine if you use it to justify the Pontius Pilate approach.
"Pontious pilot approach" ie: obeying and enforcing local laws and traditions? Because that's what pilot did. The blame if it's to be assigned falls squarley in the Jews of Jerusalem.
 

Shipmaster Sane

You have been weighed
"Pontious pilot approach" ie: obeying and enforcing local laws and traditions? Because that's what pilot did. The blame if it's to be assigned falls squarley in the Jews of Jerusalem.
In the gospels Pilot actually took actions, to no benefit for himself, to save Jesus, and then refused to be a part of the proceedings of his death. Literally more than anyone else did for him.
 
D

Deleted member 88

Guest
The idea of the Federation star ship looking on as some primitive civilization dying as they scream for help on radio has some basis in canon-the episode with Worf's brother for one. And Pen Pals.

As well as the pre PD Dear Doctor.

As it is-the idea is that for one the Federation can't save everybody, and secondly to save them means to become involved in assisting and uplifting them. Can the Federation redirect an asteroid about to hit a stone age culture? Probably. Then again, in canon there seems to be some belief in a teleology of destiny-if the will of the cosmos or evolution is for a species to perish then so be it.

Now this is pretty cold and perhaps even offensive to some people. But it is an idea I can see existing in Federation civilization as it is described.

And personally I like the values dissonance, the Federation isn't superman. And it doesn't want to be.
 

Darth Robbhi

Protector of AA Cruisers, Nemesis of Toasters
Super Moderator
Staff Member
"Pontious pilot approach" ie: obeying and enforcing local laws and traditions? Because that's what pilot did. The blame if it's to be assigned falls squarley in the Jews of Jerusalem.
Depends on which accounts you believe. The Gospels have Pilate finding no charge against Christ, but declining to acquit or release him. Matthew has the famous washing of the hands quote, with Pilate taking the least responsibility, while the other gospels have varying degrees of political calculations. I agree, few Roman governors would be that squeamish.

The classic “I wash my hands of this” is a refusal to act when one judges it right, and rather smugly putting responsibility for inaction on others. That fits Matthew’s description.

It would also be avery easy stance for, say, a lawful neutral or even lawful good Federation commander to take.
 
D

Deleted member 88

Guest
That's different though than what Phlox and Archer did in Dear Doctor. They didn't just not help, they could have helped but withheld it intentionally.
 

Darth Robbhi

Protector of AA Cruisers, Nemesis of Toasters
Super Moderator
Staff Member
That's different though than what Phlox and Archer did in Dear Doctor. They didn't just not help, they could have helped but withheld it intentionally.
Depends on how much moralizing you do.

Personally, I take thePrime Directive as a requirement to know damn well where you will land before you leap. Certainly our own world is full of examples of how meddling in the affairs of others is a bad idea, especially if you do not understand them. However, where I see it turn to evil is cover to not act when acting is appropriate.
 

Lanmandragon

Well-known member
Depends on how much moralizing you do.

Personally, I take thePrime Directive as a requirement to know damn well where you will land before you leap. Certainly our own world is full of examples of how meddling in the affairs of others is a bad idea, especially if you do not understand them. However, where I see it turn to evil is cover to not act when acting is appropriate.
Always seemed to me that during TOS that's how it was treated. Then for whatever reason by TNG it became a religious doctrine almost.
 

Darth Robbhi

Protector of AA Cruisers, Nemesis of Toasters
Super Moderator
Staff Member
Always seemed to me that during TOS that's how it was treated. Then for whatever reason by TNG it became a religious doctrine almost.
I can see it getting more stringent after Kirk comes back with multiple examples of Federation interactions with other cultures being a bad idea.
 

Darth Robbhi

Protector of AA Cruisers, Nemesis of Toasters
Super Moderator
Staff Member
I can also see the Federation unwilling to impose law and order in the borderlands.

My big question is just how the borderlands and places like Freecloud got going. The Fenris Rangers needing to fill the vacuum after Romulus goes boom and the Romulan empire breaks up implies they were former Romulan territory or protectorates. Yet Romulus goes BOOM in 2387, but Sevennika and Icheb were ranging prior to that. Also,something happened to the Borg in the 2380s to make a lot of ex-Borg. Certainly a fully armed and operational Collective is not going to release the drones, nor allow Dr. Mengele von Bubblegum to chop them up.

So, sounds like Admiral Janeway’s pathogen was more lethal to the Borg than planned, and a Fenris Rangers season or two would work very well.
 

Lanmandragon

Well-known member
Yeah. The folks bitching about how "this is not the Federation and Starfleet of TNG" (like the RedLetterMedia review) I find... rather disingenuous. I mean, I like the optimistic view of thing too; however, I also like verisimilitude, and find the idea of a more isolationist and militaristic Federation and Starfleet in the aftermath of the Borg and Dominion War to be a very believable thing.

Oh, @commanderkai, you're forgetting that not only were two worlds occupied in the Dominion War, but that Earth had come under direct attack TWICE in the same period. The first by the Borg where their cube was literally destroyed in Earth Orbit (and you can bet such a spectacular light show was visible from the planet's surface) and SECOND in the Dominion War by the Breen. Sure, it was never occupied, but the aura of Earth's safety and invincibility was pretty firmly shattered by those events as well, with the synth uprising on Mars serving as the final blow. That would have a huge impact on humans too, and we know that when humans are threatened in their homeland, they tend to... overreact.
The betazeds were hard line pacfists at least pre invasion. I'd say being occupied would change that alot through tramua nothing else. Such a peaceful people flipping to he more militaristic. Would definitely sway alot of fence sitters lending even more weight to "militaristic" politics. This is all conjecture of course but I think it's a pretty solid theory.
 

LifeisTiresome

Well-known member



The Humbling of Admiral Picard
On Star Trek: Picard our beloved admiral is forced to reckon with his privilege as a Starfleet officer from a planetary superpower.

They hate you and they hate your franchises and they hate heroes.
 
D

Deleted member 88

Guest
It’s like-they don’t believe in a utopian feature where people succeed on their merits?

I read the article, it’s basically “Picard is a starfleet Captain-thus privileged and able bodied thus privileged”

It’s distilled SJW nonsense. Like fuck-it’s clear these people have no vision of their own. Not to mention a load of envy and resentment.

And I don’t mean creatively-but they can’t imagine a better world where being a starship captain isn’t some sort of privilege(I mean it is-but not the way they think).
 

Darth Robbhi

Protector of AA Cruisers, Nemesis of Toasters
Super Moderator
Staff Member
Picard is privileged, though.

He gave Starfleet an ultimatum, stormed off to sulk when he didn’t get his way, dropped the ball on a lot of people, and got to sit at home at his chateau sipping red wine while things went to hell.

Picard’s moral dudgeon was much more fashionable in the 2360s than 2399. For most of his travels, he flat out does not get how the world now works, and just how out of place he is in it.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top