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What If? Star Trek Federation is transported into the 40k galaxy

Bear Ribs

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Lol, somebody is getting salty here.

You do realize that 40k evolved a lot from its original inception as a science fiction spoof of regular Warhammer, right?

Word of God, more like word of a former GW employee.

Once again, you are quoting a guy who left GW 12 years ago, he is as relevant to the current state of GW as much as Lucas is to new Star Wars.
Ah, first can't refute, then resort to claiming you're making me mad. I'm reminded of AOC claiming she got under Elon Musk's skin when she was actually having a glitch on her phone.

He's the creator of the game. His word's more relevant than anybody else's. But if you disagree, let's play by your rules. More recent counters older then. Show me a developer more recent and relevant than the very creator of the game himself, who said "Eldar and humans can't interbreed." That's all it will take.
 

Crom's Black Blade

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If the Imperium and the Eldar find it hard to deal with Orks, considering how fond they are of mass bombardment and shooting stuff, why do you actually think that the Federation will withstand an Ork Waagh, especially with its idiotic governmnet and puny, underpowered weapons?
I certainly have my issues with the 24th century Federation but, outside of NuTrek like the Picard series or Discovery, don't think they're idiotic. Too complacent, too collectivist, with skewed priorities certainly. And they certainly have their share of crazy Admirals. But compared to the feudal, tenuous government(s) of the Imperium the Federation is a vastly smoother, more productive and responsive organism.

And Starfleet is certainly willing to perform mass bombardment and shoot stuff if they can be convinced it's necessary. Again General Order 24 exists for when a Captain feels it warranted to do so. Through I will point out that with Starfleet sensors they likely could be more discrete in what they destroy rather than the crudeness of the Imperium so they may not need to be as brutal to achieve similar ends.

As for weapons, beyond the fact that neither franchise is remotely consistent, I'd imagine the Federation would adapt in the mid to long term by building bigger ships with bigger warp cores able to fire larger, more numerous phaser arrays and torpedoes. In the short-term likely take their existing torpedoes, gut out all shield projectors and guidance systems in order to fill them up as much as possible with matter/antimater.

While simultaneously utilizing their advantages of real-time communication and reliable FTL unfettered by the vagaries of the Warp to detect, coordinate and amass a greater concentration of force against the Ork Raiders.

And yes, with Starfleet undergoing an militarizing that makes TOS look peaceful and utopian.
 

S'task

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Why do people think the Federation's government is ineffectual or collectivist?

Based on all canon, the Federation is pretty much a bog standard presidential representative democratic republic, complete with a written Constitution (the Federation Charter), rules for expanding and adding new members and a collection of guaranteed rights. It has an elected President, a legislature (The Federation Council), and a judicial system.

From all signs we see, the Federation's government is functionally similar to pre-US Civil War America, with member planets have high level of autonomy to govern themselves as they see fit so long as they adhere to the basic rights outlined in the Federation charter. They send representatives to handle large external affairs to the Federation Council, with the President being the Commander in Chief of the not!military Starfleet (see Starfleet having to seek authorization from the President on high level / high political risk missions in Star Trek VI). There is a dedicated diplomatic corps under the Federation's government (and for those that say that's something that is obviously leftist... umm... most countries have this, we just call them "The State Department" or something similar).

Basically, the Federation government has the same strengths and weaknesses as... well frankly no modern country, as its clearly much more in line with the government of the 19th century US. Which fits when you consider that Star Trek was heavily inspired by Westerns.
 

Agent23

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Because they are space peacenick communists, that is why.
Rodenberry was an actual leftist and he was pushing liberal and socialist nonsense, and the whole "we life and our society functions so thst we can improve ourselves" is basically communism.

In any case, considering how bedly they were led militarily and politically and how appallingly bad their security is they are basically free noms for any sufficiently aggressive Warhammer faction.
 

Agent23

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Ah, first can't refute, then resort to claiming you're making me mad. I'm reminded of AOC claiming she got under Elon Musk's skin when she was actually having a glitch on her phone.

He's the creator of the game. His word's more relevant than anybody else's. But if you disagree, let's play by your rules. More recent counters older then. Show me a developer more recent and relevant than the very creator of the game himself, who said "Eldar and humans can't interbreed." That's all it will take.
You really are obsessed with Musyk, still salty because I went over your sacred cow in another thread?

Ok, if it is so easy to produce hybrids, then where the hell are all the hybris?

Seriously, considering what perverts and how starved for low level workers the Dark Edar are why aren't there lots of hybrids there.

I mean, to the Eldar it would be bestiality, but most of them are into worse.

Hybris should be bred faster and could work as useful canon fodder, maybe they would have a lower profile in the Warp,this being able to operate longer without getting their souls nommed on by She Who Thirsts.

We also have the Craft world Eldar, who are having massive population problems, so you'd think they'd be happy for some fresh blood in the ranks.

Now, back to your other little suppositon about that guy who hasn't had a thing to do with Warhammer for over 12 years.

First off, Warhammer,to my knowledge, does not have an equivalent to Lucas or Rodenberry,it was always a muti-person project with lots of churn.
So whatever he has said is invalid, and nothing but a few silly tidbits and jokes like the Eldar Space Marine Serbian Tennis player help your theories.

Orks are exceedingly hard to get off a planet, I have quoted the relevant lexicanum link.

You got nothing.
 

Bear Ribs

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You really are obsessed with Musy, still salty because I went over your sacred cow in another thread?

Ok, if it is so easy to produce hybrids, then where the hell are all the hybris?

Seriously, considering what perverts and how starved for low level workers the Dark Edar are why aren't there lots of hybrids there.

I mean, to the Eldar it would be bestiality, but most of them are into worse.

Hybris should be bred faster and could work as useful canon fodder, maybe they would have a lower profile in the Warp,this being able to operate longer without getting their souls nommed on by She Who Thirsts.

We also have the Craft world Eldar, who are having massive population problems, so you'd think they'd be happy for some fresh blood in the ranks.

Now, back to your other little suppositon about that guy who hasn't had a thing to do with Warhammer for over 12 years.

First off, Warhammer,to my knowledge, does not have an equivalent to Lucas or Rodenberry,it was always a muti-person project with lots of churn.
So whatever he has said is invalid, and nothing but a few silly tidbits and jokes like the Eldar Space Marine Serbian Tennis player help your theories.

Orks are exceedingly hard to get off a planet, I have quoted the relevant lexicanum link.

You got nothing.
Not seen: Any proof, as usual. Prove one of your points for once. You say his word is invalid? Prove it, show where. You say the Dark Eldar hybrids should breed faster? Prove it. You say they would have a lower profile in the warp? Prove it. You think I'm salty rather than mildly amused at your lengthy rant that's all unproven supposition? Prove it.
 

Agent23

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Not seen: Any proof, as usual. Prove one of your points for once. You say his word is invalid? Prove it, show where. You say the Dark Eldar hybrids should breed faster? Prove it. You say they would have a lower profile in the warp? Prove it. You think I'm salty rather than mildly amused at your lengthy rant that's all unproven supposition? Prove it.
And here we go into the can't prove a negative situation.
Given interaction between the two species, who had and in the case of humanity still have a Galactic Empire, there should be a hell of a lot more examples of them crossbreeding than we see, which is one joke character with the majority of the fandom thinking it is not possible because of the differences in reproduction I listed and you disregarded.

You are the one who takes cannon breaking outliers created as jokes and tries to use them to push your point.
 

Bear Ribs

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And here we go into the can't prove a negative situation.
"There should be lots more hybrids" isn't a negative. "Hybrids would grow faster than their parents" isn't a negative. "Hybrids will have less presence in the warp" isn't a negative. "The Interrax has bee nretconned" isn't a negative. "Xenology has been retconned" isn't a negative. "Other devs have retconned Priestly" isn't a negative. Your unsupported claims aren't negative, only the evidence you provide.

Given interaction between the two species, who had and in the case of humanity still have a Galactic Empire, there should be a hell of a lot more examples of them crossbreeding than we see, which is one joke character with the majority of the fandom thinking it is not possible because of the differences in reproduction I listed and you disregarded.

You are the one who takes cannon breaking outliers created as jokes and tries to use them to push your point.
Yeah, so let's sort out your entire hard of cards here.

1: "You just don't understand."
2: "Anything that disproves my theory is an outlier and shouldn't count."
3: "I don't have to prove my points, even when I'm making positive claims I just pretend their negative ones."
 

Agent23

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"There should be lots more hybrids" isn't a negative. "Hybrids would grow faster than their parents" isn't a negative. "Hybrids will have less presence in the warp" isn't a negative. "The Interrax has bee nretconned" isn't a negative. "Xenology has been retconned" isn't a negative. "Other devs have retconned Priestly" isn't a negative. Your unsupported claims aren't negative, only the evidence you provide.


Yeah, so let's sort out your entire hard of cards here.

1: "You just don't understand."
2: "Anything that disproves my theory is an outlier and shouldn't count."
3: "I don't have to prove my points, even when I'm making positive claims I just pretend their negative ones."
Ok, why not name a defdinite hybrid besides Nastase then?

One that wasn't created as an actual joke.

Oh, yeah, you can't.

You also can't prove that it is easy to clean up Ork spores from a biosphere or that the Federation's ineptly led military and laughable security can withstand Chaos, gene stealers and other such infiltration.

You can not prove that the ability of characters with plot armor to Treknobabel their way out of the week's big crisis works for the entire federation, and their oneshot wonder toys are just plot devices that have never, ever been seen or heard of again can be mass produced.

You also view sizable, canonical differences in the reproductive process and a long-standing opinion among fans as nothing.

You are the one who is losing here, not me.
 

S'task

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Because they are space peacenick communists, that is why.
[citation needed]

There is little to no evidence that the Federation is communist. Firstly, there is clearly money the "Federation Credit", it's mentioned multiple times in TOS, TNG, DS9 and Voyager. No, it's not generally used for day to day affairs as much of the economy of the Federation, at least on a personal scale, is post-scarcity due to the combination of Fusion power and replicators.

Secondly, the Federation is about as peacenick as 1990s America. That is to say, at their worst they'd grown complacent due to being the biggest and strongest power in their neck of the woods with no peer competitors. This situation was explored, and deconstructed in later TNG and Deep Space Nine, which saw the Federation change and adapt to having hostile peer powers, to where they were clearly massively expanding Starfleet and rapidly adopting combat oriented ship designs over the more "peacenik" type designs. This clearly shows that the Federation was adaptable to their circumstances and not beholden to a single ideology.

Thirdly, in almost all political message episodes in Star Trek they don't express Communist ideas, in point of fact, one of the strongest pro-freedom of speech speeches ever put on television comes from Star Trek:

Communism does not allow "alternative viewpoints" or "freedom of conscious", yet Star Trek consistently portrayed both in all their shows, and had their characters defending both. Roddenberry might have been a humanist and a left winger, this caricature you have of him and the Federation in your mind is one clearly based on a systemic misunderstanding and dislike of the franchise, not actual facts.
 

Agent23

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[citation needed]

There is little to no evidence that the Federation is communist. Firstly, there is clearly money the "Federation Credit", it's mentioned multiple times in TOS, TNG, DS9 and Voyager. No, it's not generally used for day to day affairs as much of the economy of the Federation, at least on a personal scale, is post-scarcity due to the combination of Fusion power and replicators.

Secondly, the Federation is about as peacenick as 1990s America. That is to say, at their worst they'd grown complacent due to being the biggest and strongest power in their neck of the woods with no peer competitors. This situation was explored, and deconstructed in later TNG and Deep Space Nine, which saw the Federation change and adapt to having hostile peer powers, to where they were clearly massively expanding Starfleet and rapidly adopting combat oriented ship designs over the more "peacenik" type designs. This clearly shows that the Federation was adaptable to their circumstances and not beholden to a single ideology.

Thirdly, in almost all political message episodes in Star Trek they don't express Communist ideas, in point of fact, one of the strongest pro-freedom of speech speeches ever put on television comes from Star Trek:

Communism does not allow "alternative viewpoints" or "freedom of conscious", yet Star Trek consistently portrayed both in all their shows, and had their characters defending both. Roddenberry might have been a humanist and a left winger, this caricature you have of him and the Federation in your mind is one clearly based on a systemic misunderstanding and dislike of the franchise, not actual facts.
Maybe because it is fictionalized "Real Socialism"?

Now, I don't remember every single episode, but there was one of those silly, high brow speeches Picard used to make that involved money and what motivates people on the federation and he did say it was "to improve ourselves." Throughout the series there was a market indifference to money, we hardly see anything akin to branded goods or large commercial companies and the Feds usually wrinkle their snooty noses at commerce.

So, yeah, the Feds are a bunch of socialists and I would not be surprised of they have a huge population of drones thst just sit in the holodeck or holosuit all day and eat free stuff out of government replicstors.

And their leadership is incompetent, indecisive and terribly easy to infiltrate.

We also have very little real interest in public opinion or an equivalent to the patriotic mandset in a normal country, with the Feds rolling over and letting the Cardies kick them out of planets thet were colonized by federation citizens and to which the Cardies had a dubious claim.

So they just bent over and kissed the ass of the inferior force and forced their own people to vacagr their homes when they were delaying with a smaller, weaker enemy?!?!

That is mind-bogglingly dumb and proof the federation sucks.

Of you think that thing will last agsinst chaos or the Dark Eldar or the Tyranids, or the Orks then I have a bridge to sell you.
 
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Husky_Khan

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We also have very little real interest in public opinion or an equivalent to the patriotic mandset in a normal country, with the Feds rolling over and letting the Cardies kick them out of planets thet were colonized by federation citizens and to which the Cardies had a dubious claim.

So they just bent over and kissed the ass of the inferior force and forced their own people to vacagr their homes when they were delaying with a smaller, weaker enemy?!?!

That is mind-bogglingly dumb and proof the federation sucks.
Meanwhile for the Imperium of Man when dealing with inferior enemies remember when they encountered the Tau and in just a few months the Imperium just virus bombed the Tau planets into oblivion, easily genociding swathes of their population, dispatched Eversor Assassins upon their leadership ruthlessly slaughtering them, and then unleashed the Ad Mech Cogheads onto the Tau and finish them off with contemptuous ease whilst pillaging their technology.

 

Zachowon

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Yes, I think we all realize there are no Devs here. The problem is there's no reason we should take your uninformed opinion as holy writ without at least something, you have nothing backing up anything you say except wild speculation and you and Agent23 have been proven not to know what you're talking about multiple times in this thread.

Like right here:


Games Workshop literally says outright they're the Squats.


And while those nasty Necromundans still call them Squats, that’s not at all how they refer to themselves.
The issue is, we have newer Canon thay retcons such things without straight up saying it doesn't happen.
I dont own every book and the only pwrson i ever relied on for qoutes isnt on this site so it will take going through Lexicanum to find more.

Thiugh most sources seem to not include anything prior to 6th edition
"To-may-toe" "To-mah-toe" ;)
I mean more in the fact that they are nit actually the Squats of old. Basically they are but arnt.

@S'task they elected Not-Stacy Abrams as president
 

The Whispering Monk

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...contemptuous ease...
Not sure I'd go that far.

Also, it's the first time the Tau had 'war to the knife' with the IoM. ALL the toys got used against the Tau, and the only reason the Damocles War went the IoM's way was because, during their retreat, the IoM ignited the planet's atmosphere. Which did NOT result in the complete destruction of the Tau forces/civilians. A large number, though by no means a majority of the population, survived in domed areas.

The Tau learn...fast. The next fight may go quite differently.
 

Husky_Khan

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Not sure I'd go that far.

Also, it's the first time the Tau had 'war to the knife' with the IoM. ALL the toys got used against the Tau, and the only reason the Damocles War went the IoM's way was because, during their retreat, the IoM ignited the planet's atmosphere. Which did NOT result in the complete destruction of the Tau forces/civilians. A large number, though by no means a majority of the population, survived in domed areas.

The Tau learn...fast. The next fight may go quite differently.
I was being sarcastic and using the Tau as metaphors for the Cardassians.
 

Agent23

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Meanwhile for the Imperium of Man when dealing with inferior enemies remember when they encountered the Tau and in just a few months the Imperium just virus bombed the Tau planets into oblivion, easily genociding swathes of their population, dispatched Eversor Assassins upon their leadership ruthlessly slaughtering them, and then unleashed the Ad Mech Cogheads onto the Tau and finish them off with contemptuous ease whilst pillaging their technology.

The Tau are actually competent, which can not be said about most of the Trek factions.

Also, that "Crusade" was pretty under-manned and underequipped and that particular sector of space was also being attacked by Tyranids.

And whatever you say about the Imperium, they will never leave an enemy be and retreat, then evacuate their own planets WHEN THEY ARE WINNING.
 

The Whispering Monk

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Also, that "Crusade" was pretty under-manned and underequipped and that particular sector of space was also being attacked by Tyranids.
You're confusing Crusades. The one that got withdrawn b/c of 'Nids was the IoM's initial attack INTO Tau space.

The Damocles Crusade was AFTER the Tau had encroached past the Damocles gulf into the fringes of actual IoM Space and planets.
 

Agent23

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You're confusing Crusades. The one that got withdrawn b/c of 'Nids was the IoM's initial attack INTO Tau space.

The Damocles Crusade was AFTER the Tau had encroached past the Damocles gulf into the fringes of actual IoM Space and planets.
And the Imperium did a hell of a lot better than Trek with its usual, which can be summed up in.
Captain, they are cutting a part of our hull.
Hail them and tell them we want peace.
Captain, they are transporting boarding parties to engineering.
Hail them and tell them that we mean them no harm.
 

Bear Ribs

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The issue is, we have newer Canon thay retcons such things without straight up saying it doesn't happen.
I dont own every book and the only pwrson i ever relied on for qoutes isnt on this site so it will take going through Lexicanum to find more.

Thiugh most sources seem to not include anything prior to 6th edition

I mean more in the fact that they are nit actually the Squats of old. Basically they are but arnt.

@S'task they elected Not-Stacy Abrams as president
If you come up with something I'll try to look at it fairly. I'm perfectly willing to say many things are retconned, however note that the hybrid thing is entirely a divergence from the real issue (That things like the Interex exist at all, which Agent disagrees with apparently entirely because he doesn't like them, not because they've been retconned).

Maybe because it is fictionalized "Real Socialism"?

Now, I don't remember every single episode, but there was one of those silly, high brow speeches Picard used to make that involved money and what motivates people on the federation and he did say it was "to improve ourselves." Throughout the series there was a market indifference to money, we hardly see anything akin to branded goods or large commercial companies and the Feds usually wrinkle their snooty noses at commerce.

So, yeah, the Feds are a bunch of socialists and I would not be surprised of they have a huge population of drones thst just sit in the holodeck or holosuit all day and eat free stuff out of government replicstors.

And their leadership is incompetent, indecisive and terribly easy to infiltrate.

We also have very little real interest in public opinion or an equivalent to the patriotic mandset in a normal country, with the Feds rolling over and letting the Cardies kick them out of planets thet were colonized by federation citizens and to which the Cardies had a dubious claim.

So they just bent over and kissed the ass of the inferior force and forced their own people to vacagr their homes when they were delaying with a smaller, weaker enemy?!?!

That is mind-bogglingly dumb and proof the federation sucks.

Of you think that thing will last agsinst chaos or the Dark Eldar or the Tyranids, or the Orks then I have a bridge to sell you.
Holy cow, are we sure @Agent23 isn't actually a bot that just scraped StarDestroyer.Net for talking points?

But no, the Federation isn't "Real Socialism." One of the key conceits of socialism is that once everybody's on board, the government and the party itself will simply wither away and leave only the Proletariat in charge of everything, which clearly isn't happening or ever suggested by the Federation. They have no dislike for the Bourgeoisie, have a healthy love of private ownership (ranging from private starships to private restaurants to any number of privately owned museums and goods from musical instruments to old cars to historical relics). Granted there's some mixed economy, I have little doubt the Enterprise is owned by the State but I'm reasonably sure the US's aircraft carriers are the same and that doesn't make it a communist nation.

The Federation is Post-Scarcity. They do have a number of goods that are still scarce and valuable, but these all appear to be strategic resources. Nobody tries to make money selling hotdogs because any Joe can walk up to a replicator and it will digitally create a hotdog for him. The basic needs of food, shelter, and clothing can be provided to every citizen so cheaply and easily that nobody has to work a 9-5 job to avoid starving to death. When Picard says they work to improve themselves, he means nobody has any reason to slave away just to make the number in their bank account go up, you do a job because you enjoy it, want to feel useful, or want to test your skills. His disdain for capitalism is the same feeling any of us would have to discover a guy spending twelve hours a day feverishly playing Cookie Clicker in hopes of generating even more imaginary cookies and making the number of cookies go up, instead of exercising, socializing, practicing, or basically doing something useful with their life.

And the Imperium did a hell of a lot better than Trek with its usual, which can be summed up in.
Captain, they are cutting a part of our hull.
Hail them and tell them we want peace.
Captain, they are transporting boarding parties to engineering.
Hail them and tell them that we mean them no harm.
Why don't you show us some proof of this claim? That doesn't jive at all with what I recall.
 
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