So...NATO is expanding...

Arch Dornan

Oh, lovely. They've sent me a mo-ron.
You do remember that Germany is building an off-white LNG terminal, and Poland was given us five nuke tech?

They may not help immediately, but alternatives to Russian energy are in the process of being put into operation.

As well, I think Finland could ask Norway for help, given all their oil reserves and production capacity.
No I didn't know but looking into it the Greens are bitching about all the environmental concerns.

In fact any mention of nuke tech for power will have any Green party bitching again for energy alternatives.

Norway could but they're already at max production capacity when I looked into it. Drilling more is asking for more environmentalist party bitching.
Actually, Finland also *exports* a decent amount of electricity to Russia. And they've been winding down what they import for about three weeks now, because they actually expected this and prepared for it.

Finland doesn't rely on Russia for any of its electrical needs; it can supply itself just fine. The reason for the current setup is just convenience/cost.

The "Stupid Europeans rely on Russia" meme really only applies to Germany. And they're widely acknowledged even among the rest of the EU as...special...in that regard.

Besides, Finland and Sweden both have been working alongside NATO for decades now and both have high quality militaries. So now they're getting the mutual defense guarantees in return, given concern over where certain EU countries *cough* Germany *cough* might weasel out in the event of a crisis.
They better. This is the time to test that energy reserve of theirs.
 
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Marduk

Well-known member
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I'm actually laughing.

All this stupidity from Russia basically caused the exact thing they were (moronically) trying to prevent: A country on their borders joining NATO.

Instead, they now have two. Two. :ROFLMAO:
Because the theory that Russia is deathly afraid of neighboring countries being NATO members is a cool story for western leftists, isolationists and other useful idiots.
Russia does get annoyed with that, but for a completely different reason. Russian leadership with all their KGB veterans knows as well as you and i that getting the western politicians, nevermind populations, of at least the significant NATO members to agree on a march towards Moscow is practically impossible. They struggled even with getting verbal approval for wars against shitholes of little relevance like Libya, Syria and Iraq, and those were formally done outside of NATO anyway, with non-members included sometimes.
What NATO however does change is that there are limits on what kind of "funny business" Russia can do against countries in it. Seeing how much Russia likes its funny business, they sure must hate having limits on it.
Consider the ever dwindling list of countries neighboring Russia that aren't nuclear powers or in alliance with one, that Russia didn't invade after 1990.
Both Russia and Ukraine knew that Russia considers Ukraine a rightful part of its imperial holdings that Russia got robbed of in the fall of Soviet Union, and if it was going to get off that list, Russia would rather have it be in their attempt to regain control unsubtly, than by joining an alliance, making any prospects of regaining control unlikely for the foreseeable future.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Russia threatened to invade and nuke them....
So they called the bluff after seeing how horrible the Ruskies are doing in Ukraine.
This is no one but Russians fault.
NATO isn't an aggressive organization. They never have been. They are purely defensive. If you look at anything about them.
A country has to willingly want to join. The country then has to vote on it if it joins or not.
If it was aggressive why is Serbia, Austria, etc not part of it?
And Ukraine would never have actually been able to join NATO unless they have up claims in the Donbass and Crimea

TBH, NATO can act on the offensive in defense of human rights: Serbia/Kosovo 1999 and Libya 2011 come to mind. That said, though, NATO was never going to do anything to Russia because Russia has a lot of nukes.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Because the theory that Russia is deathly afraid of neighboring countries being NATO members is a cool story for western leftists, isolationists and other useful idiots.
Russia does get annoyed with that, but for a completely different reason. Russian leadership with all their KGB veterans knows as well as you and i that getting the western politicians, nevermind populations, of at least the significant NATO members to agree on a march towards Moscow is practically impossible. They struggled even with getting verbal approval for wars against shitholes of little relevance like Libya, Syria and Iraq, and those were formally done outside of NATO anyway, with non-members included sometimes.
What NATO however does change is that there are limits on what kind of "funny business" Russia can do against countries in it. Seeing how much Russia likes its funny business, they sure must hate having limits on it.
Consider the ever dwindling list of countries neighboring Russia that aren't nuclear powers or in alliance with one, that Russia didn't invade after 1990.
Both Russia and Ukraine knew that Russia considers Ukraine a rightful part of its imperial holdings that Russia got robbed of in the fall of Soviet Union, and if it was going to get off that list, Russia would rather have it be in their attempt to regain control unsubtly, than by joining an alliance, making any prospects of regaining control unlikely for the foreseeable future.

Worth noting that NATO didn't intervene in Kosovo and Libya for shits and giggles, but rather to protect human rights. While one could say that the effects of the Libyan intervention ended up being rather bad, NATO still had good intentions in what it did. If the Libyans failed to build a functional democracy afterwards, well, the blame is in part on them. Kosovo was a greater success, though not completely since a lot of its Serb and Roma population did get ethnically cleansed in and after 1999.

And Yes, Russia never actually got over the loss of the Soviet Union. In fact, right after the Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS) was created, Russia began proposing the adoption of supranational institutions for the CIS, in opposition to some or perhaps even many of the CIS's other members.
 

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
What would the Sultan want in exchange for this? Surely he has some kind of price, no? ;)
Some people speculated he might want F-35s.
IMHO he is sick and tired of morons like Sweden, aka the "Humanitarian superpower" supporting the Kurds and interfering in Turkey with crap like NGOs.
And Turkey is the second biggest army in NATO and holds the Bosporus as well as pipeline transit routes to the Gulf and Azerbaijan and can raise merry hell with those drilling projects in the Mediterranean.

You are basically pissing off a Bishop to get two extra pawns that would be in very disadvantageous positions to begin with, so yeah.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Some people speculated he might want F-35s.
IMHO he is sick and tired of morons like Sweden, aka the "Humanitarian superpower" supporting the Kurds and interfering in Turkey with crap like NGOs.
And Turkey is the second biggest army in NATO and holds the Bosporus as well as pipeline transit routes to the Gulf and Azerbaijan and can raise merry hell with those drilling projects in the Mediterranean.

You are basically pissing off a Bishop to get two extra pawns that would be in very disadvantageous positions to begin with, so yeah.

What is Turkey's specific complaint about NGOs?

FWIW, I actually admire Turkey from the humanitarian angle for taking in 3.5+ million Syrian refugees. I think that it would be easier for Syrian refugees to assimilate in Turkey than in Germany, but time should tell.
 

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
What is Turkey's specific complaint about NGOs?

FWIW, I actually admire Turkey from the humanitarian angle for taking in 3.5+ million Syrian refugees. I think that it would be easier for Syrian refugees to assimilate in Turkey than in Germany, but time should tell.
There have been a few yapping about the usual shit, muh equality, muh democracy and rule of law, muh free speech.

As to refugees, well, Turkey has been one of the countries fomenting the war in Syria, so they are in part responsible for the mess and should help clean it up.
 

King Arts

Well-known member
What would the Sultan want in exchange for this? Surely he has some kind of price, no? ;)
Here is the question. Why should America pay it? Like the way I see it why should America care if Russia invades Ukraine, or China Taiwan? Nations get attacked by others all the time, does anyone care about Saudi Arabia attacking Yemen? The Israelis if they do something bad to Palestinians? America should not try to make a world empire for the elites and globo homo. We should be concerned with the New world. As long as old world nations don't try to set up in the America's we should leave them be.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Here is the question. Why should America pay it? Like the way I see it why should America care if Russia invades Ukraine, or China Taiwan? Nations get attacked by others all the time, does anyone care about Saudi Arabia attacking Yemen? The Israelis if they do something bad to Palestinians? America should not try to make a world empire for the elites and globo homo. We should be concerned with the New world. As long as old world nations don't try to set up in the America's we should leave them be.

I actually do care about Saudi Arabia attacking Yemen, which is why I don't actually view the Houthis as the bad guys in that war.
 

Airedale260

Well-known member
Here is the question. Why should America pay it? Like the way I see it why should America care if Russia invades Ukraine, or China Taiwan? Nations get attacked by others all the time, does anyone care about Saudi Arabia attacking Yemen? The Israelis if they do something bad to Palestinians? America should not try to make a world empire for the elites and globo homo. We should be concerned with the New world. As long as old world nations don't try to set up in the America's we should leave them be.

Because 1) it's 2022, not 1822, and 2) there are a wide variety of options between "Making the World Safe For Democracy" and "Going Full Sankoku Japan."

In the case of Russia/Ukraine and China/Taiwan, it's because their actions actually impact us and our neighbors. And the fact that where distances used to require months to travel now can be covered in hours. And the fact that we have significant interests in Europe, Asia, and the Middle East, for different reasons.

The "globalism" view has pretty much gone out of fashion, but working closely with friendly nations means that we don't have to be The Guy in every situation (although our sheer size and the resources we can bring to bear as a result mean that if we have to, we absolutely can).

With Russia and Ukraine? We really don't want to have to remilitarize Europe like we did post-1945, and worry about what's currently going on being repeated over and over in other countries. And part of the reason is that we've been shipping equipment and other support to Ukraine so we *don't* have to take a more active role.

With China and Taiwan, it's because the latter is actually a democracy and a friendly country, whole the former is our biggest geopolitical rival and even if we tried to ignore them, they are going to focus on us, simply because we are too big to be ignored. Likewise we really don't want the Korean War going hot again, nor do we want China deciding to start wars on its borders again and causing who knows how many humanitarian crises as well as massive disruptions in the economy. Like it or not, it impacts the U.S. directly.

Burying our heads in the sand does not and has never worked. We have tried that, repeatedly, and it failed.

Oh, and a final note on the Monroe Doctrine: The only reason it stuck was because there was a global power willing to help us enforce it (the British). The U.S. never had the ability during that time to project power beyond Mexico and the Caribbean...and even by 1914 it was clear we couldn't do *that* much in response to what went on even south of the border.
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
What would the Sultan want in exchange for this? Surely he has some kind of price, no? ;)

They are likely angling for a better deal in regards to the F-16's that Turkey is looking to purchase up. I doubt that Erdogan actually has any serious reservations about Finland though they might about Sweden over the alleged support of the PKK, but I don't see anything NATO Membership Torpedoing concern wise. Turkey already has a near free hand in Syria and in dealing with the PKK in its own territory now, especially since it's Russia that is the main supporter of the YPG/PKK/SDF now in Syria as Turkey reminded Russia of not too long ago when Russia tried to propagandize capturing former YPG Fighters in Mariupol as terrorists in order to sway Turkish opinion and Turkish Social Media started posting videos and media of Russians and YPG Cooperating in Syria etc. :sneaky:
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
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Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
The F-16 Deal is the reimbursement for the F-35's. The United States is going to get Turkey forty more F-16's (the 'Viper' variant) and eighty modernization kits for the ones they have already in lieu of the aborted F-35 deal.
 

Airedale260

Well-known member
The F-16 Deal is the reimbursement for the F-35's. The United States is going to get Turkey forty more F-16's (the 'Viper' variant) and eighty modernization kits for the ones they have already in lieu of the aborted F-35 deal.

Yeah giving Turkey the F-35 would allow them to poke holes in its defenses and give that to the Russians...which we really don't want.

Advanced F-16s, however, are another matter since they aren't as restricted. Still pretty advanced but no stealth tech

Also, technically all F-16s are called "Viper" unofficially, the V version is just the manufacturer acknowledging that nobody actually calls it a "Fighting Falcon" and officially adopting the name.
 

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