Serious question about anti-Semitism.

[Zachowon]

And I never said there was anything wrong with those jobs, you made that assumption yourself.

What I was trying to point out is that the 'Blame the system' and the 'Pull yourself up by your bootstraps' views are both wrong and missing a lot of nuance.

What most think is that you can live comfortably.
Not live rich.
For instance, neither if my parents got a degree and I lived a comfortable life.
Pulled themselves up by the bootstraps

 

[Bacle]

I did not say that you thought there was something wrong with those jobs.

What I was saying, is that conservatives at large have never thought 'pulling yourself up by your bootstraps' was going to turn everyone into a millionaire. We've thought that it could get 99% of people to healthy, stable jobs, particularly if people would stop sabotaging the economy and society with cancerous programs, laws, and regulations.

And I never said anything about trying to make people millionaire's, either, you did.

You took umbridge at what I said and started layering on your own assumptions about what I meant.

The 'Blame the system' vs 'Pull yourself up by your bootstraps' stuff is about far more than economics, but you tried to reduce it to that and assumed I was only speaking about economics.

What most think is that you can live comfortably.
Not live rich.
For instance, neither if my parents got a degree and I lived a comfortable life.
Pulled themselves up by the bootstraps

As I said above, the issue goes beyond economics.

It's about the Left vs Right mindset differences when it comes to why things happen and what level of control people actually have over their own circumstances.

It's about which is more powerful, individual will or societal forces.

The Left thinks it's mostly social forces, the Right thinks it's in mostly individual will, when the truth is it's a mix and never the same from person to person.

 

[FriedCFour]

The 'Blame the system' vs 'Pull yourself up by your bootstraps' stuff is about far more than economics, but you tried to reduce it to that and assumed I was only speaking about economics.

Oh yeah definitely. It’s not that hard to succeed or make your life adequate, but because of how people are being raised and pushed into being fat, lazy, zero attention span having hedonists looking for every instance of instant gratification they can find, many people fail now.

 

[Bacle]

Oh yeah definitely. It’s not that hard to succeed or make your life adequate, but because of how people are being raised and pushed into being fat, lazy, zero attention span having hedonists looking for every instance of instant gratification they can find, many people fail now.

What defines 'success' or 'adequacy'?

Because how you define them is not how they are defined universally; different people and groups will have different definitions for how them, and act accordingly.

 

[FriedCFour]

What defines 'success' or 'adequacy'?

Because how you define them is not how they are defined universally; different people and groups will have different definitions for how them, and act accordingly.

Be able to have and exceed the basic needs required to live.

 

[Bacle]

Be able to have and exceed the basic needs required to live.

Again, who defines what is 'meeting' or 'exceeding', or even what the 'requirements' are?

Those are not universal constants that will be uniform across the world, much less within a large melting pot like the US.

 

[FriedCFour]

Those are not universal constants that will be uniform across the world, much less within a large melting pot like the US.

America ain’t much of a melting pot. Whatever fire there was has been put out and the latest ingredients are ruining it.

 

[Zachowon]

And I never said anything about trying to make people millionaire's, either, you did.

You took umbridge at what I said and started layering on your own assumptions about what I meant.

The 'Blame the system' vs 'Pull yourself up by your bootstraps' stuff is about far more than economics, but you tried to reduce it to that and assumed I was only speaking about economics.
As I said above, the issue goes beyond economics.

It's about the Left vs Right mindset differences when it comes to why things happen and what level of control people actually have over their own circumstances.

It's about which is more powerful, individual will or societal forces.

The Left thinks it's mostly social forces, the Right thinks it's in mostly individual will, when the truth is it's a mix and never the same from person to person.

It is an issue between urban and rural. Suburbs are mixture depending on the area.

It is harder to pull yourself up by your bootstraps in a place where a low wage job wont get you much."

Where asliving in a small town in the south one can.

Me and a friend split an apartment and because I was good at saving money, had a decent life making just 9 something an hour, making around 200 something a week.

For instance, a city like Birmingham is cheaper to live in then damn near any major city in any other state, because it isn't the same type of city, and is spread out not built up.

It really isn't a mix. It is about the individuals choices...

 

[Terthna]

Of course, trashman is a pretty well paid job. Garbage men doing a quick google make in the range of $15-20 range. That's a good $30,000 dollars, probably with benefits on top of that, which can keep a family in a good quality of life with good morals and good financial sense.

In a functional, non insane economy, you can actually live a fairly decent life at about $10,000 dollars a year per person. A bit better when one pairs up with a functional family/proper community.

Like, eating pretty well at like $10-20 dollars of food a day, is only about $5,000 dollars a year.
One Person's share of basic utilities is like $120 a month, once again not skimping on showers or electricity or wifi, is like $1,500 a year.

Travel, based on owning a car, may be in the realm of $5,000 dollars a year. With a used car, you can get more like $3,000.

So, individually you can live in a fair degree of luxury, eating out more or less every day, traveling to work in a nice car, and not worrying about electricity or water, at about $10,000 dollars. Working full time on minimum wage of $7.25 gets you to $14,500. Thus, you can live very comfortably on minimum wage with a family to lean on for some of the other expenses.

The right generally reconizes that "demand" is generally not the side to attack things from, that poor people need more money, but from the supply side on policy: the important policy is to try and make sure such things as healthcare and housing stay affordable by having a functional healthcare and housing market, and neither of those problems will be solved by just throwing more money at poor people. Throwing money at supply problems generally just results in higher prices, not much more actually supplied.

$10,000 a year in my city wouldn't even pay for the crappiest of apartments in my city. Heck; $20,000 a year would be pushing it, and that's just for the monthly rent.

 

[ATP]

But what you are in favor of is their exact strategy of “become more left wing to win somehow”. You can’t change the world but groups can, leaders and great men can, and you can learn from defeat. Acceptance of defeat and acceptance of loss ensures it’s result. The future is something that isn’t set in stone or certainly not one that you can know, and the only way to achieve what you want is to fight for what you want with everything you’ve got as best you can.

Exactly.After Anzicourt France basically decided thet they lost - they still fought,but without trying to win,like Repuplicans in USA now.
Then come saint Joanna D"arc and say "let knights fight,and God would send victory".
And France win.They let murder Joanna,becouse they were cunts,but they win.

 

[Terthna]

To get back on topic, it is very difficult to tell weather or not someone who's disparaging Israel and the people who support that country are legitimately taking issue with the county itself, or are just using that as a cover to disguise their base bigotry against Jews. It get's a little easier if you can also catch them ranting about how the Jews control everything, and are the source of all the world's problem; but when you call them out, they immediately start going on about how you're only accusing them of antisemitism because they criticize Israel, and insist that it's all part of a plan from the Jews to delegitimize resistance to their nefarious machinations.

 

[Cherico]

To get back on topic, it is very difficult to tell weather or not someone who's disparaging Israel and the people who support that country are legitimately taking issue with the county itself, or are just using that as a cover to disguise their base bigotry against Jews. It get's a little easier if you can also catch them ranting about how the Jews control everything, and are the source of all the world's problem; but when you call them out, they immediately start going on about how you're only accusing them of antisemitism because they criticize Israel, and insist that it's all part of a plan from the Jews to delegitimize resistance to their nefarious machinations.

Pretty much litterally any one else would have just kicked the Palastinians out by now, sad truth is Israel treats them better then other arab countries do. Mostly because the Palastinians are back stabbing assholes who have burned all their bridges but there you go.

 

[King Arts]

Pretty much litterally any one else would have just kicked the Palastinians out by now, sad truth is Israel treats them better then other arab countries do. Mostly because the Palastinians are back stabbing assholes who have burned all their bridges but there you go.

That's not true. America and other Western European nations would not be kicking out the Palastinians. As for the Arabs yes they don't treat the Palastinians well. But here is the thing people say Israel is a 1st world western nation and that's why we should support them. That means that they are held to 1st world western standards. Like yes other Arab nations would abuse Palastinians more in that position but here is the thing, while Saudi Arabia for example is our ally it's an ally of convenience who if circumstances permitted we would abandon. Not Israel which the US considers a friend and would not abandon. So yes Israel can act in a 2nd world or 3rd world manner towards Palastinians, but then America should end any friendship with Israel and only maintain an alliance as long as it is to our bennefit.

 

[Terthna]

That's not true. America and other Western European nations would not be kicking out the Palastinians. As for the Arabs yes they don't treat the Palastinians well. But here is the thing people say Israel is a 1st world western nation and that's why we should support them. That means that they are held to 1st world western standards. Like yes other Arab nations would abuse Palastinians more in that position but here is the thing, while Saudi Arabia for example is our ally it's an ally of convenience who if circumstances permitted we would abandon. Not Israel which the US considers a friend and would not abandon. So yes Israel can act in a 2nd world or 3rd world manner towards Palastinians, but then America should end any friendship with Israel and only maintain an alliance as long as it is to our bennefit.

If that's the kind of attitude we have towards our allies, we don't deserve any. At the end of the day, Israel is well within their rights to end the Palestinians as a people. The fact that they haven't, when we have decades of military adventurism and regime changes under our belt, makes them far more of a "1st world western nation" than we will ever be; even if they end up finally doing it one day.

For Pete's sake; we've destroyed nations, killing innocent people in the process. Not because they were an immediate threat, mind you; but because we thought we could get something out of it. We have no right to criticize how Israel decides to handle the Palestinian problem.

 

[FriedCFour]

To get back on topic, it is very difficult to tell weather or not someone who's disparaging Israel and the people who support that country are legitimately taking issue with the county itself, or are just using that as a cover to disguise their base bigotry against Jews.

It’s very difficult to tell for me what the underlying issue is with people who support an ethnostate with border walls defended with lethal force, incredibly strict immigration for anyone non ethnically Jewish but extremely easy for anyone of Jewish lineage, with state religion as well, but who will turn around and see more moderate positions in line with that advocated in America and call that Nazism or radical or extremist or reactionary. See, I think it’s good on Israel to have all of those things, but then when I say that about America many of the same people who will support Israel to their dying breath call me evil for it. If those things are what makes a Nazi, necessarily Israel would be a Nazi state. The people who call Israel that are more consistent than the people who defend Israel but also call that evil if anyone other than Israel wants that for their country.

 

[King Arts]

If that's the kind of attitude we have towards our allies, we don't deserve any. At the end of the day, Israel is well within their rights to end the Palestinians as a people. The fact that they haven't, when we have decades of military adventurism and regime changes under our belt, makes them far more of a "1st world western nation" than we will ever be; even if they end up finally doing it one day.

For Pete's sake; we've destroyed nations, killing innocent people in the process. Not because they were an immediate threat, mind you; but because we thought we could get something out of it. We have no right to criticize how Israel decides to handle the Palestinian problem.

So we should be friends with the Saudi's towards our last dying breath? Also keep on jacking off to the thought of putting the Palestinians into death camps like the Nazis why don't you. Because here is the thing no Israel would not be fucking justified to end the Palestinians as a people. Also you seem to be pretty fucking ignorant. Saying America has destroyed nations. No we've fucked up countries before but here is the thing the Iraqi's still exist as a people, Afghanis still exist as a people, they aren't genocided, the only group America genocided were the Native Americans. So don't give me this bullshit about Israel being so much nicer than any other nation. Here is a thing Americans should stay to pro Israel supporters, Leave America and go live in Israel if you support it. If you believe it is a great country and you feel loyalty to it then get the fuck out of America, and go live there and work there, and protect that land yourself in the IDF. Note Americans CAN support Israel and not have to leave but that previous bit was towards those who are always pro Israel. It's ok to support other nations as friends just like Americans can like the British, French, Italians, or whatever ally we have. It's only those that put Israel's interests above Americas, like some evangelicals and other neo cons that should GTFO.

 

[Zachowon]

So we should be friends with the Saudi's towards our last dying breath? Also keep on jacking off to the thought of putting the Palestinians into death camps like the Nazis why don't you. Because here is the thing no Israel would not be fucking justified to end the Palestinians as a people. Also you seem to be pretty fucking ignorant. Saying America has destroyed nations. No we've fucked up countries before but here is the thing the Iraqi's still exist as a people, Afghanis still exist as a people, they aren't genocided, the only group America genocided were the Native Americans. So don't give me this bullshit about Israel being so much nicer than any other nation. Here is a thing Americans should stay to pro Israel supporters, Leave America and go live in Israel if you support it. If you believe it is a great country and you feel loyalty to it then get the fuck out of America, and go live there and work there, and protect that land yourself in the IDF. Note Americans CAN support Israel and not have to leave but that previous bit was towards those who are always pro Israel. It's ok to support other nations as friends just like Americans can like the British, French, Italians, or whatever ally we have. It's only those that put Israel's interests above Americas, like some evangelicals and other neo cons that should GTFO.

It depends on the Ally and our relationship with them.

Also, you are working this horribly.
It should say "If you are pro Isreal in the sense they can do what ever they want to Palestine" and then you have "Pro Isreal as supporting the nation".

Because there is a diffrence.

BTW. You could make the same argument for South Korea.
If North Kirea invaded and South Korea did was Isra did, would you say the same thing?

 

[King Arts]

It depends on the Ally and our relationship with them.

Also, you are working this horribly.
It should say "If you are pro Isreal in the sense they can do what ever they want to Palestine" and then you have "Pro Isreal as supporting the nation".

Because there is a diffrence.

BTW. You could make the same argument for South Korea.
If North Kirea invaded and South Korea did was Isra did, would you say the same thing?

I'm sorry your post is kind of hard to understand. Also yeah I kinda did word it badly. I meant to say if you were pro Israel in the sense that they can do whatever they want then GTFO basically like when Teth said that Israel is perfectly in the right to wipe out the Palestinians, and that every other nation in the world would have wiped them out by now if they were in Israel's position.
If you are pro Israel as in you think that Israel is better morally than Palestine and you support them that is perfectly valid, as long as you don't take it to crazy extremes like Teth.

And I don't think South Korea is comparable. I mean Israel has complete dominance over Palestine, Palestine can't realistically conquer Israel. While North Korea is much more dangerous to South Korea and might be able to actually assualt and capture South Korea's capital at least for a little bit without American assistance. Note if this is wrong and South Korea totally dominates North Korea and can crush their entire military in under a week then yeah it would be wrong for South Korea to be brutal. But when two equals are fighting then they can't hold back. But with Israel it's like a man beating a woman or a 12 year old. One of them has a definite strength advantage and even if they need to be restrained they might be able to be more gentle. I think a better example would be Saudi Arabia and it's little expedition into Yemen. The Saudi's though incompetent have advanced technology because of us that they can beat the Yemeni like red headed stepchldren.

 

[Captain X]

I wouldn't support Israel putting the Palestinians into camps (hyperbole much?), but I would be completely understanding if they decided that enough was enough and simply occupied all of that territory and basically expelled all the troublemakers. That doesn't necessarily mean all Palestinians, unless all of them decided they couldn't live in peace in Israel. I'm betting at least some of them could, because some of them have been doing so for some time.

 

[Hlaalu Agent]

I find it amusing in a thread literally talking about hatred towards one group, we literally have what appears to me to be people advocating genocide, ethnic cleansing and the like against another. I mean why is this even acceptable?

*Editing out something that is out of line.