Serious question about anti-Semitism.

[Nitramy]

Serious question here:

At what point do we draw the line between legitimate criticism and outright hate when it comes to Jewish people and ideology?

Because thanks to WW2, the pendulum has swung so far in one direction that you can't criticize policy and ideology before people drop in with the related memes.

Yes, I know this sounds like prime edgelord material, but hear me out on this one. Because IMO any ideology deserves to be criticized, especially something as bad as "chosen people ideology".

 

[ShadowsOfParadox]

"chosen people ideology"

This part is honestly kind of odd. Like, Jewish "Chosen People Ideology" is, at base, a somewhat more exclusive version of why Athens is named Athens. It's only when you have other people who start worshiping the same god that you start to have problems... Of course, oddly enough, I don't think I've ever heard of any sort of Jewish Terror, if you have evidence of such I'd be fine to hear it. But AFAIK all the problems are one way, problems OTHER PEOPLE have with Jews rather than problems Jews have with other people.

can't criticize policy

On this one I'd like some example of criticisms that don't come down to either "Don't hurt the Palestinians"(which has problems of its own) or "Insert Conspiracy Theory about Jewish Control here", that also resulted in accusations of Antisemitism.

 

[Culsu]

OP, this isn't directed at you, but more as a general statement.

I find it hard to find any legitimacy in something as broad as "criticism of Jewish people" given that they constitute probably the greatest global diaspora (not in numbers, but probably in spread). Other than a broadly socio-religious background, very often a passive and not actively-lived one at that, what do these people have in common that could be reasonably "criticized"?

It'd also be easier to approach the subject if the majority of those doing so wouldn't be so eager to use it to white-wash the "Palestinians" in the same breath.

 

[GoldRanger]

Yes, I know this sounds like prime edgelord material, but hear me out on this one. Because IMO any ideology deserves to be criticized, especially something as bad as "chosen people ideology".

"Chosen people" is supposed to mean chosen to do the tedious worship crap (613 obligations) while the rest of humanity is free to ignore, not chosen as in better than everyone else.

There are extremist streams of Judaism which take it too far though and fully believe in the "chosen" narrative in the bad sense, including nauseating beliefs such as "non-Jews have the souls of cattle", or that after the Messiah comes the non-Jews will serve the Jews.

Those streams of Judaism tend to be the ones that oppose the state of Israel, mind you.

 

[Scottty]

"Chosen people" is supposed to mean chosen to do the tedious worship crap (613 obligations) while the rest of humanity is free to ignore, not chosen as in better than everyone else.

There are extremist streams of Judaism which take it too far though and fully believe in the "chosen" narrative in the bad sense, including nauseating beliefs such as "non-Jews have the souls of cattle", or that after the Messiah comes the non-Jews will serve the Jews.

Those streams of Judaism tend to be the ones that oppose the state of Israel, mind you.

If the topic is about criticism of ideology, then it is indeed important to note that the set of all people in this world who identify as "Jews" or "Jewish" do not in fact all have the same ideology.

And anyone who tries to shout down any serious criticism or discussion of his or her ideology by accusing the critic of hating, is using a dishonest tactic.

 

[Nitramy]

It'd also be easier to approach the subject if the majority of those doing so wouldn't be so eager to use it to white-wash the "Palestinians" in the same breath.

You won't have to worry about that. I got in hot water with SB due to my HP story of a Dark Wizard literally destroying Islam.

Anyway, my criticism of Judaism or Jewish culture in general is: how powerful and influential are these people who go "oh no white people have eclipsed us Chosen People(tm) in the development of civilization, time for us to create political correctness, Hollywood, and academia to subvert them so we will lord over the rest of humanity as is our divine right"?

Please tell me I'm not overreacting here; I don't hate Jewish people per se, it's just that their constant "white people need to self-flagellate" on one end and "I'm Jewish" on the other is very disconcerting.

 

[ShadowsOfParadox]

Please tell me I'm not overreacting here; I don't hate Jewish people per se, it's just that their constant "white people need to self-flagellate" on one end and "I'm Jewish" on the other is very disconcerting.

wait who? No seriously, give me some examples please.

 

[Nitramy]

wait who? No seriously, give me some examples please.

Chotto a minute, let me try to find those tweets.

EDIT: I really don't want to believe that these people are subverting society out of insecurity, but this pic doesn't do anyone any favors.

 

[PsihoKekec]

As that saying goes ''Patriotism is the scoundrels last refuge''. Scoundrels of all kinds will pull any kind of card to rebuff criticism. Be it accusation of racism, anti-semitism, misogyny, homophobia... anything to shut up people. And they don't care that their actions make it harder for those who actually suffer from these things, they are assholes afterall.

 

[ShadowsOfParadox]

but this pic doesn't do anyone any favors.

I dunno where that link in one goes... but also I haven't heard of this person before so eh. I really doubt it. It seems more like some people looking at the crazy and going "Wait, I'm totes Jewish, I don't fit in that box of evil right?"

 

[Scottty]

I dunno where that link in one goes... but also I haven't heard of this person before so eh. I really doubt it. It seems more like some people looking at the crazy and going "Wait, I'm totes Jewish, I don't fit in that box of evil right?"

This looks more like someone going "if you are proud of your ethnicity that's bad, but when I'm proud of my ethnicity it's good!" and not seeming to understand how bad that sort of double-standard actually is.

 

[Nitramy]

It seems more like some people looking at the crazy and going "Wait, I'm totes Jewish, I don't fit in that box of evil right?"

Yeah, I guess so. Maybe because it comes off across as "I'M WHITE WHEN IT'S CONVENIENT AND JEWISH WHEN IT'S CONVENIENT" that throws me off..

 

[PsihoKekec]

When assholes want to both have their cake and eat it.

 

[commanderkai]

See, it really depends on what is being criticized.

For example, focusing on the religion aspect, one can be opposed to say, male circumcision, and not come off as anti-Semitic. Plus there are Jewish extremists like what @GoldRanger pointed out.

You can also be critical of Israel without being anti-Semitic. Generally though, in my experience, people oppose Israel by using standards they don't put upon the Palestinians/Arab states, or hell, even the United States or some European countries, which makes their criticisms suspect, to say the least.

For individuals like the "Whiteness bad, but I'm Jewish therefore I still have oppression points" yeah they're shitheads, but that's not because they're Jewish, but because they are trying to win "Wokeness". They'll twist that sort of stuff to suit their agenda at will. Remember George Zimmerman, the "White Hispanic"? It's nonsense and should be discarded.

 

[Sol Zagato]

There is no Jewish Conspiracy. Criticizing Jews as a whole is stupid. Even just categorizing them as a whole can be pernicious- they're all kinds. It took awhile to even personally encounter Jewish lawyers from New York who hit most of the negative stereotypes.

There are -movements- and organizations composed of Jews that should be in for healthy criticism, same with individual Jews, same as normal people in general. It shouldn't be a shield from treatment others would get. No I don't hate you, Tim Wise, because you're Jewish. It's because you're an asshat who profits by teaching people to believe in blood-guilt.

I don't think it's anti-semitic to point out that Jews end up in the leadership of things disproportionally, no matter where on the political compass;
Alt-right? Literally started by Paul Gottfried.
Marxism? No points for knowing that one.
Libertarianism? Friedman, Rothbard and Rand

I think this is why people start hating Jews. No matter what they hate (except if it's China or something) they'll find Jews prominent in the leadership.

 

[Scottty]

I think this is why people start hating Jews. No matter what they hate (except if it's China or something) they'll find Jews prominent in the leadership.

Not always that "prominent" though. That a given writer or political leader has a Jewish background is not always obvious.

 

[GoldRanger]

You won't have to worry about that. I got in hot water with SB due to my HP story of a Dark Wizard literally destroying Islam.

Anyway, my criticism of Judaism or Jewish culture in general is: how powerful and influential are these people who go "oh no white people have eclipsed us Chosen People(tm) in the development of civilization, time for us to create political correctness, Hollywood, and academia to subvert them so we will lord over the rest of humanity as is our divine right"?

Please tell me I'm not overreacting here; I don't hate Jewish people per se, it's just that their constant "white people need to self-flagellate" on one end and "I'm Jewish" on the other is very disconcerting.

What the fuck. You're describing an imaginary phenomena. Spreading lies about the evils of Jews, for example, is textbook antisemitism.

 

[Nitramy]

What the fuck. You're describing an imaginary phenomena. Spreading lies about the evils of Jews, for example, is textbook antisemitism.

What part of "Stop thinking that non-Jews are subhuman people to grind beneath your heel and their civilizations yours to subvert" is anti-Semitic?

I've already posted an example as to how some people go "I'm white" on one hand and "I'm Jewish" in another; I'd like some assurance that this is just assholery and not actual malicious acts towards a vanguard civilization just because it's not their turn at the wheel.

 

[ShieldWife]

The best policy is just not to blame or credit anybody for things they didn’t do.

George Soros is a scum bag and so are any number of other filthy rich limousine liberal Jews who use their influence to push a far left agenda. Karl Marx created an ideology that lead to many millions of deaths and unmeasurable suffering. Blame those people for what they did/do.

Jonas Salk invented the vaccine for Polio and gave it to the public, giving up a fortune to make the vaccine cheaper for everyone. How many millions of lives and how much suffering did his brilliance and virtue prevent? Murray Rothbard, John Stossel, Milton Friedman, and any number of other prominent Jewish libertarians have sought to limit big government and tyranny that results from it. Give them the credit they are due.

For some other Jewish person who hasn’t participated in any of the above, good or bad, they don’t get that blame or credit. Just judge them by what they actually do, use that policy with everybody regardless of their race and/or religion and anybody who accuses you of bigotry is in the wrong.

 

[GoldRanger]

What part of "Stop thinking that non-Jews are subhuman people to grind beneath your heel and their civilizations yours to subvert" is anti-Semitic?

I've already posted an example as to how some people go "I'm white" on one hand and "I'm Jewish" in another; I'd like some assurance that this is just assholery and not actual malicious acts towards a vanguard civilization just because it's not their turn at the wheel.

Actually that's THE example of antisemitism, you're basically quoting Nazis at this point.

By saying "stop beating your wife" you are implicitly saying that the person IS beating his wife. Accusations of Jews controlling the world/economy/politics/banks/acacademia are untrue nonsense that was used as an excuse to murder Jews for thousands of years, hence this is antisemitism.