Before back up they were getting beaten by Cinder and her team in vol 5.
Floppy arm was kicking thier ass early on. I don't count adam.. no one should
The giant mech. The final fight here.
Anime & Manga RWBY General discussion thread.
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Floppy arm was kicking thier ass early on. I don't count adam.. no one should
The giant mech. The final fight here.
f1onagher
Well-known member
Unsorted train of thought.
Final score 2/5. They found an eight ball under the desk to improve the writing from time to time and there were a few decent fights, but I still don't care about anyone outside of Jaune and Ruby. The plot progressed and I'm actually curious about what happened to the six people that fell. Well done RT, I still await the day your company fails and the Blood Gulch Chronicles become public domain.
Huh, looks like RT is manufacturing a detour for our intrepid heroes. That has the potential to be interesting with the constricted cast, but we'll see. Probably just an excuse to milk another season out of the series. I'm surprised no one tried to deal with Cinder's new remote explosion trick by, I don't know, punching her in the face. That was a really unsatisfying fight. Does Atlas have more than two Hunter teams? I'm pretty ambivalent about Penny dying. On one hand Penny died, on the other hand I like Winter as the Winter Lady better for thematic OCD purposes, and on the third foot I really don't have an emotional investment in any of the characters that didn't fall into the abyss. Flipping a coin to see if Ironwood makes it out. I know RT decided to do his character dirty, but if they're gonna redeem Emerald (still angry🤬) I think that Ironwood deserves a chance to punch Cinder in her stupid face.
Final score 2/5. They found an eight ball under the desk to improve the writing from time to time and there were a few decent fights, but I still don't care about anyone outside of Jaune and Ruby. The plot progressed and I'm actually curious about what happened to the six people that fell. Well done RT, I still await the day your company fails and the Blood Gulch Chronicles become public domain.
I have tk say.
Your take is interesting.
I also don't think
iron wood is making it out alive. Neither is Watts
Terthna
Professional Lurker
I am well aware of what Monty was responsible for, but I'm going to be honest with you; outside of animating fight scenes, Monty was a hack. RWBY was probably never going to be more than a mediocre show under his watch; but had he lived and seen things through to the end, it might have taught him some well-needed lessons so that his next project could have been better.
Having a plan, and sticking to said plan, does not excuse that plan being stupid.
I am sorry, but I laughed when I heard they killed Penny again. It is just so stupid, and of course immediately reminded me of Kenny on South Park and him dying repeatedly.
"OH MY GOD THEY KILLED PENNY! You bastards!"
In addition, Ironwood did nothing wrong.
"OH MY GOD THEY KILLED PENNY! You bastards!"
In addition, Ironwood did nothing wrong.
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Spoiler yhis people damn.
I know I am one of few on here but let's not spoil it fir everyone who enters
DarthOne
☦️
Agreed, though I do think that had Monty not died that the show would have been more fun to watch. At the very least the fights would be better. That said, some of the behind-the-scenes stuff I've heard makes me wonder if Monty would have stuck around much longer (EDIT) at RT.
You mean the fight that should have ended with a villain victory if Cinder had an ounce of common sense and attacked when everyone didn't have their Aura up? The same fight that the villains should have won, even putting aside Raven's nonsensical betrayal, which, had she succeeded would have just planted an even bigger target on her back for Salem?
Ah yes, the let-down llama who'd killed whole villages but was beaten by the complex tactic of circle-strafing and could oddly be harmed by melee weapons despite Aura-empowered bullets being ineffective against it. I'll take 'What is consistency' for 150, Alex.
Do you mean the GEN;LOCK advertisement fight? The same fight where the most obnoxious character in all RWBY-the-show decided to try and take them out by walking up and hitting them with the mech's fists instead of just nuking them with ranged weapons? Never mind that Team RWBY ended up beating said giant robot
Can't comment on the latest fight as I haven't seen the episode, but the previous episodes and the spoilers I've heard about it give me no desire to watch it.
Putting the last point aside, all of this helps demonstrate my point. The main cast's chances of victory depend on what the plot calls for, usually by some sort of contrivance or the enemy suddenly wearing the dunce cap, instead of any actual logic or skill on Team RWBY/JNR's end.
You too huh? Also, heard that in Cartman's voice.
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Val the Moofia Boss
Well-known member
This has to be reemphasized.
I think RWBY's failure comes from promising to be something it could never deliver on.
Seasons 1 and 2 did not try to pretend to be a dramatic, epic adventure saga like ATLA or a JRPG or an epic anime series. It was just a bunch of funny gag comedy scenes and cool fight scenes, and it delivered on that people were satisfied by that. Had the show continued to just be some wacky, lighthearted stuff like that, the show would have been fine.
The moment Ozpin pulled Pyrha aside in season/volume 3 and we were introduced to a secret war for the fate of humanity and it was being treated seriously, that was the moment the show started promising something it could never deliver. Penny's and Pyrha's death and the fall of Vale was a great shock value moment, but the show simply wasn't constructed to have the legs to carry the story forward in a satisfying manner after that.
DarthOne
☦️
See, I think it could have delivered, had the writers been more experienced and pragmatic about the direction the story took. Not to mention taking time off to plan things out better and thinking things through.
I'd argue that they could have and indeed should have done that with one simple move. Give RWBY a several month-long to a year-long break after Monty's death. They could have easily done this, explaining how they want time to make sure they are doing do Monty's legacy right and be respectful to his memory. *
Above all, a good writer knows their limitations, when to take their time, when to change the story and when to go looking for help. To me, Miles and Kerry don't know how to do this nearly as well as they think they do. Nevermind how, from what I heard, GEN:LOCK stole a lot of the time and resources away from RWBY.
As for how this would be done, one could easily come up with a dozen other ways to do the basic plot without erasing Salem, though I do think rewriting her a little would be wise. But if push comes to shove, one could drop her with some ease in favor of doing a smaller-scale story.
One could just make Ozpin another mortal man in a long line of people dedicated to keeping Remnant stable behind the scenes; with Cinder then being the main antagonist instead of just a lacky, someone who seeks the old secrets to gain power to her own ends. As for Salem's voice at the start of V1, one could easily have that be the voice of Raven, given that we only heard her speak one line at the end of V2, or someone from Ozpin (and Cinder's?) past.
Putting that aside, at the very least, if one wants to keep Salem more-or-less as she is in canon, I suspect getting rid of the gods and the Relics would have been a good idea, though they could have been kept in some capacity if one is set upon having them in the story. Though if one did want to keep them, I'd have them be heavily rewritten; which would of course alter Salem and Ozpin's backstory.
Again, assuming one is going for a smaller-scale story, I'd argue that the Gods should have been kept a myth and a legend, something we never get wholly confirmed or denied. Salem could just be a truly ancient Grimm, one that has gained intelligence and malice to match, perhaps having memories of Remnant's 'forgotten past'- which, as an aside, is something I would have kept mysterious instead of showing to the viewers. This could be worked with Ozpin just being a mortal man and one in a long line of leaders against the darkness.
Alternatively, if one wants something a little closer to canon, one could have Ozpin and Salem being older than they look, but nowhere near as ancient as in canon. With the idea that these people were friends or peers in the relatively ancient past, who studied Remnant's long-forgotten history, including much older ancient relics that use Aura and Dust in ways that are beyond the imagination or abilities to replicate people of that time or of modern Remnant. With the idea being that Ozpin and Salem acquired enough Forgotten Lore and Relics that they thought they could control or lessen the threat of the Grimm. This of course ends up going horribly wrong, warping Salem into what she is now and making both herself and Ozpin immortal. Possibly in such a way that they're linked in some way that prevents them from dying as long as the other one survives.
At the very least, I'd argue that the biggest mistake that could be easily fixed would be to simply not break up Team RWBY after V3 like in canon. As that just created a narrative mess with too many plot threads all over the darn place. But I think all this is enough for one post.
*Of course, this is putting aside rumors of how RT treated Monty's wife, who allegedly knew more about Monty's plans for the story than Miles and Kerry did or seems to have. This might have some truth to it, given what seems to be several major retcons between what was established in the early Volumes and the post- Volume 3 storyline. Never mind the kerfuffle surrounding Shane and so on.
LindyAF
Well-known member
Eh... I thought the trailers and intro stuff, and even the first episode felt like it trying to sell an adventure saga. I remember when the second episode aired I was thought "wait... this is a magical high school show?" I stuck around until a bit after the fall of Beacon because it seemed like even if it wasn't really giving it to us it still seemed like we were getting promised an adventure saga. Then when Beacon fell and we started getting it it became clear it couldn't give us a good one.
IMO if they wanted to do the adventure show, they ought to have cut Beacon totally. It's hard to have an adventure in a school because 1) your characters aren't going anywhere, and sagas generally need physical motion and 2) your characters have an overabundance of authority figures who you'll have to keep explaining why they aren't solving the problem.
If on the other hand, they wanted to do wacky magical high school slapstick with cool fight choreography, then it should have focused much more heavily on that from the start- make it clear in the trailers, no serious shadowy greater scope villains.
Bear Ribs
Well-known member
Pretty sure they were aping Harry Potter there. The film series ended in 2011 and RWBY was released in 2013. At that point "magical school" shows and stories were extremely in fashion after what a juggernaut Harry Potter proved to be. Lots of them were planned around the same plot, start in a magical school, a season or two of classes (useless/abusive teachers common), bullies, etc, then the school's invaded and falls, followed by an adventure.
Doomsought
Well-known member
Am I the only one who thinks that RWBY would have been better if they just stuck to being a hunter team in training and never escalated to a world spanning conflict?
DarthOne
☦️
Ehhhhh, maybe? At the very least, I'd still like to see them travel around a little on field-assignments or to the other academies at least from time to time. Otherwise, I think it would have run the risk of growing boring after a while and running into the sort of issues similar Magical High School stories have.
If anything, I'd rather have gone with what the series seemed to have presented itself as at the start, which is an adventure saga. With the character having just ended their time training or are finishing it up in the first Volume. That and I would have bumped up their ages a little. Although I must confess that might just be me being sick of 'teenagers saving the world' plot lines that seem so ubiquitous in fiction these days.
LindyAF
Well-known member
Yeah, I was actually trying to think through why Harry Potter works even though it is pretty much entirely set at Hogwarts. I think it ties into the fact that the Harry Potter novels, are primarily mystery novels- for the majority of each book, the main characters are concerned with finding the answer to one question or another. "What is being guarded at Hogwarts? Who is Nicolas Flamel? Who is after the Philosopher's Stone?" You kind of want mystery novels set in one location.
Bear Ribs
Well-known member
I agree. Escalating the threat too far past the original premise is risky in writing, it can be done but has a high chance of opening up gaping plot holes by making previous storylines irrelevant because of the change in scale.
That said RWBY actually needs Salem or similar. Without an intelligent villain, the main threat is non-sentient Grimm and they don't provide much characterization or opportunity for growth. They're more akin to a mobile natural disaster than a character, so you have to generate all of the drama via people who are ostensibly on the same side fighting each other, and RWBY's attempts at doing that have proven to be terrible (See: Ironwood). It also makes very little sense in the context of RWBY, typically in, say, a Zombie movie (These have the same problem and generally it's humans who should be on the same side that do the most damage), you have small survivor camps and warlords and such because civilization was wiped out only a few months ago and society hasn't adapted to undead yet which is where the drama comes from. RWBY's aesthetic requires an advanced civilization with enough technology for transforming gunscythes, and gynoids, and combat mecha, which precludes the zombie apocalypse method of drama.
This is a very good point, very cogent. I would add to it that Harry Potter benefits from being a changeling fantasy. Our viewpoint character has no idea how the Wizarding World works and so his learning about the whimsical, mad logic of the magical system and sense of wonder as Harry discovers one marvel after another give it a lot of options for character building that RWBY lacks.
At some level I suspect the writers wanted a changeling character but I don't think they internalized how such a character works. They supplied a few characters with superficial changeling traits, Jaune is untrained and has no idea what he's getting into and Penny is a newly constructed gynoid, but they didn't understand how such a character works or they would have realized the changeling has to be the main character, and the story needs to have heavy elements of discovery, and their changelings know too much about Remnant compared with Harry anyway.
DarthOne
☦️
I do believe you are onto something here...although. I question just how much they actually 'wanted' a changeling character because it was the sort of story they wanted to tell. Or if it was a case of them, consciously or not, aping works of fiction like Harry Potter and not knowing what it was they really were trying to do.
What I['m saying here is that I have a rather low opinion of Miles and Kerry's skills as actual writers. It just puzzles the heck out of me how they can go from pretty decent storytelling like parts of Red vs Blue etc to....whatever the heck is going on with RWBY or Gen:lock.
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Probably the SJW parasite.
Bear Ribs
Well-known member
Well obviously I can't read their minds when I say they "wanted" something. Jaune to me is conspicuously different and out-of-place compared to the rest of the cast and I can't help but feel he's intended to be that sort of character and was shoehorned in for such purposes, or perhaps to be the everyman type although, again, normally that's a main character and they shoehorned the role into support where it doesn't work.
As for Red Vs. Blue or Gen:Lock, haven't seen GenLock so I can't comment. Generally I've found that when you see a severe nosedive in writing quality one of two things is the case, either there was an uncredited person who was giving them advice/beta'ing who left (George Lucas' wife tremendously improved his scripts for the original Star Wars trilogy and most of the awful changes made to later editions are a result of George taking out her contributions to avoid paying her), or they tried to change genres and it turns out their skill was only at writing one type of story.
Val the Moofia Boss
Well-known member
Eh, I don't see much overlap between the RWBY and Harry Potter fandoms TBH. I see much more overlap between RWBY and the anime fandom. Anime was beginning to blow up in the West around that time, with Crunchyroll's rise in popularity, the explosive popularity of Attack on Titan, Fate/Zero, and Sword Art Online, and Netflix deciding to put popular shows like F/Zero and SAO up for streaming.
Despite the characters living at Hogwarts, they actually explore new locations in every book. They get to go to new places in the castle, new classrooms, new secret rooms, etc. They get to go outside the castle and find new places in the woods inhabited by new magical creatures and, find new magical creatures underneath the lakes, and etc. They sometimes get to leave the castle and see other places of the wizarding world, or even pop back to the muggle world. Every single HP book introduces new locations to explore, new characters to meet, and new magical creatures and spell to discover. There is always that sense of discovery.
RWBY was did this somewhat in the first three seasons. In season 1, they got to explore a few parts of the city of Vale, and in seasons 2 and 3 we got to see new parts of the city too. In season 2, they took a helicopter fieldtrip to an abandoned nearby city. And in season 3, they got to go underneath Beacon to a secret vault.
I don't think RWBY needed an overarching big bad or a dark lord or anything. It could have different arcs with different villains. Torchwick was a simple, charismatic thief who only existed for the first three seasons, and to this day appears to be the well received villain in the franchise. The White Fang were also a far more interesting antagonist faction than generic doomsday cult #9123, even if they were utterly botched.