Russian-Ukrainian-Polish Eternal Friendship Thread

Why did they not separate to Russia when there was a Pro Russian government?
Why have the separatists not spread to other areas?
Why is it only in Donbass? Why are ethnic Russians fighting the Russians and taking up arms?
And Ukraine was part of Poland well before Russia ever had it.
If Texas wants to split from the Union at a time when the Republicans have the House, the Senate and the presidency because of their dislike of Liberal Democrats, would that fly?
Something like that would just send the rest of the country bonkers, would send almost every country bonkers, due to nationalism.
Crimea tried to split from Ukraine on several occasions, Ukraine didn't let them do it.

This is not uncommon, and it has happened in many parts of Europe.
Also, didn't you do a civil war or something when the South wanted to do that?
 
Can you show me a map of Pre Soviet Ukraine?
The pre-USSR map does not matter, as it is not something that still exists in living memory; that is not the case with the redraw Gorby did, where there are people who remember being part of Russia, till suddenly Gorby made a decision for them.
Ah, so when Russia lays claim to land, because "Ethnic Russians" they are allowed to stage an insurgency for the pro Russians.
Why are no other areas rebelling? They could easy make all of Eastern Ukraine rebel of they wanted to be apart of Russia THAT badly. Yet why is only two areas?
As I said, other areas were not part of Russia before Gorby's redraw, and this rebellion isn't interested so much in conquering the rest of Ukraine, as it is defending thier own lands from Kiev.

I don't get how this is so hard for you to understand. Its like are purposely ignoring the nuances I point out to continue spouting the DC narrative, and acting like anything but the DC narrative is 'spouting the Kremlin line'.
The flaws here is you trust Russia
And your flaw is trusting DC in regards to Russia after 4 years of the 'Russian collusion' hoax in regards to Trump.

Edit: Unless of course you think the Russia collusion stuff with Trump was legit.
 
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Chunks of their country splitting themselves off undermines the Ukrainains' identity and claim to legitimacy, a lot of those places have been something else far longer than they have been Ukrainian.

Also, Ukraine just means Borderland in Russian, so it is not exactly true that that particular piece of land had a specific identity.

Wag the Dog 2: Brandon Boogaloo.
 
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Sure, and it had nothing to do with corruption in Kiev, or the fact that the area was part of Russia to Gorby redrew the lines.:rolleyes:

This is what I mean by US establishment and warhawks not being able to grock or admit that some people might honestly prefer to be in Russia's sphere than in DCs.

Why do the people of Donbass and other rebel areas have to remain in Kiev's control, if they honestly want to divorce themselves from Kiev's control?

Does right to self-determination disappear if people make the 'wrong' choice, in the eyes of DC?
Nice of you to care about self-determination, the problem is that hardly anyone in this conflict does. This is a conflict between US establishment and Russian establishment, and it is about power, influence and limits of sovereignty in the region. Neither of them care about that, but both are willing to use the argument when it suits their goals.

If that was the core issue in the conflict, then Russia would offer Ukraine such a deal:
-Let's move in UN peacekeepers to Donbass, Luhansk and Crimea as neutral party and have UN designated neutral parties run referendums on whether the regions in question want to be in Russia, Ukraine or independent without local forces interfereing in that.
-Ukraine and Russia will respect the results of these referendums and will relinquish all claims on territories that have decided to not join them.
-Afterwards Ukraine can join whatever economic and military alliances it wants to.

We all know Russia would never think of accepting anything resembling such offer.
 
Nice of you to care about self-determination, the problem is that hardly anyone in this conflict does. This is a conflict between US establishment and Russian establishment, and it is about power, influence and limits of sovereignty in the region. Neither of them care about that, but both are willing to use the argument when it suits their goals.

If that was the core issue in the conflict, then Russia would offer Ukraine such a deal:
-Let's move in UN peacekeepers to Donbass, Luhansk and Crimea as neutral party and have UN designated neutral parties run referendums on whether the regions in question want to be in Russia, Ukraine or independent without local forces interfereing in that.
-Ukraine and Russia will respect the results of these referendums and will relinquish all claims on territories that have decided to not join them.
-Afterwards Ukraine can join whatever economic and military alliances it wants to.

We all know Russia would never think of accepting anything resembling such offer.
Well, what neutral party would you suggest, in such a scenario? Who would both Russia and the US trust to conduct them?

Because having independently verified referendums on who wants to be what is not something I'm adverse to. I am very well aware of how important election/voting integrity is, particularly after the stolen 2020 election.

Personally, in such a scenario...maybe India could be a trustworthy neutral?
 
Well, what neutral party would you suggest, in such a scenario? Who would both Russia and the US trust to conduct them?

Because having independently verified referendums on who wants to be what is not something I'm adverse to. I am very well aware of how important election/voting integrity is, particularly after the stolen 2020 election.

Personally, in such a scenario...maybe India could be a trustworthy neutral?
UN blue helmets. More specifically, ask Japan, SEA, and other democratic countries without much of a dog in the fight to supervise it.
 
UN blue helmets. More specifically, ask Japan, SEA, and other democratic countries without much of a dog in the fight to supervise it.
Ok, I had also thought about Japan, because Russia has decent relations with them. Said India more because they also have decent relations with both, but aren't as far into the US sphere as Japan.

See, this is the sort of solution warhawks on neither side want; open transparency for the people on Ukraine, to allow them free and fair choice of who they wish to live under.
 
Ok, I had also thought about Japan, because Russia has decent relations with them. Said India more because they also have decent relations with both, but aren't as far into the US sphere as Japan.

See, this is the sort of solution warhawks on neither side want; open transparency for the people on Ukraine, to allow them free and fair choice of who they wish to live under.
If the warhawks in the west were clever they would go with that anyway, because it is an automatic minor strategic victory for them even if Ukraine loses all the referendums.
Which in turn is why Russia would laugh out the plan, the last point, whether Ukraine has the right to pick its allies freely, is the most important for Russia, everything else is means to that end for them. They would gladly trade all the 3 territories to Ukraine if it could be guaranteed that Ukraine is bound to be their satellite state in return. Likewise, even if they keep all 3, if the rest Ukraine joins NATO and EU, they would consider that a disaster with a consolation prize.

From Ukraine's point of view it would be better than anything else, because it would allow them and their allies from the west to save face and legality in withdrawing from keeping claims to Crimea and other 2 territories if needed.
And once Ukraine has no outstanding claims or military conflict, its chances to join NATO and EU in foreseeable future grow significantly.

On second thought there is another consolation prize for Russia in this - once the Crimea claim situation gets solved in a politically and legally agreeable way, it becomes politically viable for the EU and US to lift the sanctions they have put on Russia in 2014.
 
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If the warhawks in the west were clever they would go with that anyway, because it is an automatic minor strategic victory for them even if Ukraine loses all the referendums.
Which in turn is why Russia would laugh out the plan, the last point, whether Ukraine has the right to pick its allies freely, is the most important for Russia, everything else is means to that end for them. They would gladly trade all the 3 territories to Ukraine if it could be guaranteed that Ukraine is bound to be their satellite state in return. Likewise, even if they keep all 3, if the rest Ukraine joins NATO and EU, they would consider that a disaster with a consolation prize.

From Ukraine's point of view it would be better than anything else, because it would allow them and their allies from the west to save face and legality in withdrawing from keeping claims to Crimea and other 2 territories if needed.
The best compromises leave no one happy, but everyone accepting of them.

However, as we seem to agree, warhawks on both sides do not want something like this.

A east/west Ukraine split is probably the best outcome left to anyone, but few are willing to admit that.
 
Why are no other areas rebelling?
They were, but they were outgunned by the security forces. Fortunately for the Donbass rebels, junta had only few forces it could rely on which bought the time until the hammer fell on the Donetsk and Lughansk.
 





Looks like inspection of the Aegis Ashore in Poland and Romania, to confirm they cannot/do not house Tomahawks, is on the table as part of the efforts to deescalate things with Russia.

Definitely a good idea; proving we are not putting first strike/offensive weapons in those installations would probably help ease Russian paranoia over them.
 

Looks like Biden will be pulling back on the warmongering.

Honestly, the smart approach from the beginning would have been an official “we are monitoring the situation, no further comment.” It feels more like amateur hour at the White House, seeing as how they’ve bungled so many damn things already, then any actual “grand conspiracy involving the evil warhawks and the omniscient industrial military complex”. To pull off a conspiracy the likes of which guys like Tucker Carlson, Posobiec, Greenwald, etc keep hammering, you need actual competence…something that’s been kind of missing in the Oval Office as of late.

The Ukrainians, if they are indeed telling Biden to calm down is more likely due to “everyone’s got itchy trigger fingers, we don’t wanna be looking like the ones who started the next war in Europe” than anything else.

That said…I would keep an eye on the region.
 





Looks like inspection of the Aegis Ashore in Poland and Romania, to confirm they cannot/do not house Tomahawks, is on the table as part of the efforts to deescalate things with Russia.

Definitely a good idea; proving we are not putting first strike/offensive weapons in those installations would probably help ease Russian paranoia over them.


Perhaps, but please note that last sentence, “provided Russia provides reciprocal transparency measures.”

This is the same country during the bad old days of the USSR that secretly had an extensive bioweapons program aka Biopreparat in violation of the Biological Weapons Treaty of 1972.
 
Perhaps, but please note that last sentence, “provided Russia provides reciprocal transparency measures.”

This is the same country during the bad old days of the USSR that secretly had an extensive bioweapons program aka Biopreparat in violation of the Biological Weapons Treaty of 1972.
It's also the same US which lied to the world about why we were going to Iraq.

Weapons inspections to ease tensions are nothing new; what we would want in return for the inspections is what is being left up in the air at the moment.
 
It's also the same US which lied to the world about why we were going to Iraq.

Weapons inspections to ease tensions are nothing new; what we would want in return for the inspections is what is being left up in the air at the moment.

Bacle, apples and oranges here. I’m talking about a legit biological weapons program the Soviets ran under everyone’s noses and no one hardly knew anything about it until the Cold War ended.


And I didn’t say the inspections was a bad idea, I’m more inclined to a wait and see approach, or rather see what new round of demands Putin will make.

Hey, maybe I’m wrong, but as a veteran I’m getting the impression you’re letting what ever personal tiff you have with Zachowon color your feelings about anyone doing, or having done their time in the uniform as a whole.
 





Looks like inspection of the Aegis Ashore in Poland and Romania, to confirm they cannot/do not house Tomahawks, is on the table as part of the efforts to deescalate things with Russia.

Definitely a good idea; proving we are not putting first strike/offensive weapons in those installations would probably help ease Russian paranoia over them.

Nice if true and not a ploy to get a freebie or play for time.
The whole thing with Russian protests about Aegis Ashore is that they are a huge stretch, and as such, probably meant to be an "issue" made out of nothing and sound like a proxy concern for issues that would sound bad if talked about openly.
Firstly, USA used to have nuclear Tomahawks. On trucks. In Italy, UK and many other countries.
Retired under INF. Now Russians can claim that this hacked naval launcher system could take naval nuclear Tomahawks... But USA doesn't operate those anymore either and no one questions that.
Are Russians thinking that USA has built a huge, obvious, stationary facility with very expensive radars meant for missile defense, in order to make no use of them and instead sneakily fill the paltry 24 launch tubes with conventional Tomahawks, because reasons?
Considering the sheer amount of potential positions for Tomahawks to reach Moscow (anywhere from UK-west France-Italy line or closer will do), there are many ways for USA to put way more tubes of them within range, cheaper, and more sneakily.

Frankly if Russians have let paranoia eat their brains that badly, and if they are willing to agree to the counter-proposal, its a great deal for NATO.
“Polish officials said the government is open to missile-defense inspections on the condition that Russia allows inspection of Russian missile activities in Kaliningrad, a heavily militarized Russian exclave on the Baltic Sea that borders Poland and Lithuania,” the Wall Street Journal report says.
What i would suspect is the real objection to these facilities from Russia? Something much grander, as shown by their earlier demands to remove *all* US forces from the former WP countries. The nature of these forces and any worries about missiles are just fluff. What really irks them is that the forces are there, and in case of the ABM facilities, that these are immobile and somewhat important facilities that cannot be freely thrown away in the future. The problem with that is that presence of these is an excellent "tripwire" that in turn convinces the governments of Poland and Romania that USA will not be able to easily withdraw from NATO obligations to defend them...
And that in turn means that these governments will take the usual threatening behavior that Russia uses for all kinds of negotiations less seriously, directly reducing Russia's *persuasion power* in its political relations with these countries in this way, for as long as such bases exist and are relevant in military terms.
 
Bacle, apples and oranges here. I’m talking about a legit biological weapons program the Soviets ran under everyone’s noses and no one hardly knew anything about it until the Cold War ended.

No, it's just complaining about the Russians doing sneaky shit like that rings hollow in the face of how many lies the US establishment has pushed in regards to its justifications for are conflict/invasions of places.

Hey, maybe I’m wrong, but as a veteran I’m getting the impression you’re letting what ever personal tiff you have with Zachowon color your feelings about anyone doing, or having done their time in the uniform as a whole.
No, it's far more than just the Tiff with Zachowan; he's just the most visible and loud face of it here.

My issues go to what the Pentagon did in defying Trump over Syria, in Milley coordinating with Pelosi to refuse Nat Guard on Jan 6th, to the incestous connections between the US military, US intel unity, and US 'mainstream/Trusted' media in the modern day, to what Snowden revealed and why (watch the Frontline doc United States of Secrets; very eye opening on what happened to the whistleblowers before Snowden), to the way the Zach admitted the US military 'needs' to be in combat every 20 years for 'expereince' (which means that US intel very likely forment conflict for regular forces to participate in), to how the military has treated vets who dare to use cannabis instead of pharma for pain management/other issues, to the way they treated Scheller for daring to call for accountability, and the way the military is being used to transport illegal immigrants across the nation.

Zach is just the face of it all here, and he's even said he'd leave the military over them naming a base after Harriet Tubman, but won't leave or disobey any order until they start ordering troops to fire on US citizens.

Its the either blind or naive patriotism, and the blatant hypocrisy in his stances on some topics, that cause me to ride his ass about stuff like this. It also doesn't help when he continues to dodge points I make because they hurt his bosses narratives, and often instead just puts words in my mouth to strawman me.

I also have had enough family and friends in military to not worship it as some hallowed institution, and enough historical knowledge to know how many times the US military has been used to get into conflicts based on lies (USS Maine, for instance).
 

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