Russian-Ukrainian-Polish Eternal Friendship Thread

[Agent23]

Damn, I hit it!
But going back, that's right, we consider ourselves superior to you and you to us. What's so strange about that?
Yes, we ate quite a lot, too much, and thanks to our own passivity we let Russia rise instead of killing it at the cradle's doorstep. Pride goes before a fall.
And I agree that we are stuck in the past, but as I say, Russia is our rival, and we will never get along with them because they are always against us. This is no anti-Russia. For you Russia is a defender of Orthodoxy, for us it is a rival which has panaroid tendencies because of us. So we must crush it or keep it in check.
I have a question for you, which country did Bulgaria challenge all the time as a rival on its way to power over the Balkans? Because there must have been one. Bulgaria's former empire was impressive.
And as for the lust for revenge, well, two of our neighbors de facto razed our country to the ground. We rebuilt it with difficulty with our own hands for 20 some years, all the time feeding the Soviet leech. Are you surprised at our desire to prevent this from happening by razing every threat to us?
And I don't recall ever preaching that our neighbors should be in ruins.

They don't have to share because we don't have it. For us, Russia is the enemy! Do you understand? For you, no, because they don't care about you! Your problem is your neighbors! We don't have any objections, just the simple fact that Russia is a threat to us and we know very well that just leaving them for a while is enough for them to try to corner us again. And I want us to go back to the old way of doing things, which means that we're the ones who are playing them off against each other.

Who am I?
An ordinary Pole, because you see for us Catholicism is just another ornament, we might as well be prostestants or Orthodox. Because a Pole follows the motto not of freedom as it is commonly believed, but Pro Fide et Lege (For Faith and Law). The right to choose the king (president) and to overthrow tyrants and for his faith.

As for Latin, at the time when he lived, our poet Mikołaj Rej used to say ("Let others know that Poles are not geese and they have their own speech"). Something like that worked, but in our country Latin was something that everyone knew. What united the whole country, because you could use it to talk to anyone. And its level of integration into our language is so great that more than 1/3 of our words come from it, and we have many other features from it.
No wonder, we Poles were impressed by the Roman Republic. So please, your insults from papists don't matter to me.

Our culture is much different. We don't fear strangers but we eat them. And often these strangers are better Poles than the one who was born in it. Anders, Radziwill, Czartoryski, Wisniowiecki. Do you know what they had in common? That none of these names is purely Polish and yet these people did more for Poland than Jaruzelski, Gomulka.
To cut it short, to you the west is evil, too bad but we are the old west, we have nothing in common with you except that our language comes from the same group.
If we Poles have an obcession towards Russia, then you Bulgarians have it towards the West. Forgive me, but we are not impressed by Russia, it is an interesting fact. But as a rule it is us who impress them.
And as for the fact that Russia is developing, yes, but it is not as strong as you think, if we were not afraid of them we could foolishly give them a slap on the nose and keep them in check, but no, our elites, out of fear of Russia, give everything to our neighbors to the east of us, as long as they are against Russia even if it harms us! Thus our influence there, is gone because we didn't care to keep it.

Ok, so to sum up things here, you Poles are, according to you at least, massive opportunists that came to the party late, you were propped up by westerners, you managed to gain some territory and notoriety while the Rus were preoccupied or weakened, then you cry fowl because they reorganized and eventually kicked you to the curb?
According to you Poles are self-righteous opportunists that want to quote "eat the foreigners", and you think yourselves morally and culturally superior to all of Eastern Europe, combined?
You speak of "justice", yet this justice appears to apply only to you.

This is one of the most snobbish, SJW-like attitudes I have ever seen.
With that attitude you will not gain any local allies.
With that attitude you will make all your neighbors hate you.

And then there is the orders of magnitude larger enemy you are obsessed with poking and grandstanding against that a lot of your neighbors like to do business with and apparently have no problems with.

Yeah, well, you are not endearing yourself to anyone, dude, if anything such a megalomaniacal attitude as you describe will guarantee most countries around you will, if not outright despise you for your expansionism and self-importance, then turn a blind eye as somebody else screws you over.

So intent on being a king, that you do all of the actual King's pawns' dirty work.
You make your country sound like a manic-depressive suffering from a massive inferiority complex and paranoia, and schizophrenia.

Why the fuck should anyone in NATO, anyone in the EU, anyone in Europe aid you in any way, you gain the chance to over-compenate for past failings and go after your favorite boogieman, but what do they get, having to tolerate your smug superiority and expansionism?

According to you your country is a bunch of self-serving overcompensators, Germany, and France, and all of Europe except for the morons in the Baltics and in West Ukraine, do not need such a volatile ally.

 

[Batrix2070]

*ship*

Honestly, that's exactly what it is. You described what the elites and some of our nation do all the time.
And now it's time to kick back and get to work to cut them down to the bone and then repeat but better.
As for the eating, I mean we do nothing and they polonized themselves. Polish was the official language in Lithuania, not in Poland! Until our downfall, then under the partitions we consolidated around a charming and untrue vision of PLC. And this has been dragging on all the time, add to this that the other half of our nation shits on our history and hates it, and sees the solution to our problems in the destruction of Polishness.
In efect you have the brothel that we have. Megalomania and self-loathing at the same time.
And our own demise begins with this.

Believe me, there's nothing worse to me than seeing our elites hounded for Germany/USA and growling at whoever Russia needs. And at the same time we are scared as hell of them and say save! Instead, we will bite you Russia but because it's in our interest and when we want to and not when some master tells us to.

We just don't know how to play for ourselves which allows others to play us how we want. After all, the likes of Ukraine are playing us as they please! We always give it what it wants, and when it spits on us we pretend we don't see it.

If we were normal, we'd tell them straight out, listen Ukr, if you want our help, you've got to stop this and that, and if you don't, then fall on a tree and we'll share you with Russia.

 

[Agent23]

Honestly, that's exactly what it is. You described what the elites and some of our nation do all the time.
And now it's time to kick back and get to work to cut them down to the bone and then repeat but better.
As for the eating, I mean we do nothing and they polonized themselves. Polish was the official language in Lithuania, not in Poland! Until our downfall, then under the partitions we consolidated around a charming and untrue vision of PLC. And this has been dragging on all the time, add to this that the other half of our nation shits on our history and hates it, and sees the solution to our problems in the destruction of Polishness.
In efect you have the brothel that we have. Megalomania and self-loathing at the same time.
And our own demise begins with this.

We co-own a brothel?

Where, in the Ukraine, most decent-looking hookers there ran away, which is actually a good thing since I got to bang a few, nicely rounded in all the right places, pale blonde and blue eyed, a lot more dedicated than our local over-tanned hookers with the over-siliconed lips.

As to Lithaunia, well that was a very short-lived alliance IIRC, and they don't speak Polish any longer.

You tried tried to eat Russia/the Rus's lunch, but they ended up eating yours and chucking you into a pond, if we are to use Eyre Crowe's term of phrase.

 

[Batrix2070]

As to Lithaunia, well that was a very short-lived alliance IIRC, and they don't speak Polish any longer.

It was hardly a short alliance, and in a way we willingly let them escape from our hands despite a very good deck in hand. Hell, we still allow them to pull Polishness out of Lithuania even though it would be enough to stomp them to stop doing it.

You tried tried to eat Russia/the Rus's lunch, but they ended up eating yours and chucking you into a pond

More specifically, we got it for free as a gift and didn't eat it while we could have.
In fact, our downfall began because we let chance after chance slip away and still told ourselves that it was okay because we were better than others and didn't have to do it. So instead of history where we eat Prussia or Russia they ate us even though it seemed illogical and fucking impossible.

And this picture perfectly shows the illusions in which the elite lived and still live in large numbers. But the other side? It is not better, instead of a powerful Poland it sees a hole, a third world country that has to follow the West.
But just try to do something better and in between they will immediately try to kill you or educate you into one of their own like SJW. And that's both sides.

 

[Agent23]

It was hardly a short alliance, and in a way we willingly let them escape from our hands despite a very good deck in hand. Hell, we still allow them to pull Polishness out of Lithuania even though it would be enough to stomp them to stop doing it.

Not familiar with with Lithuanian atm, but I am pretty sure that it is not a slavic language, also their alphabet and yours don't look all that similar according to google image search.
Then again, you probably gave them second hand latin with some german umlalts.

More specifically, we got it for free as a gift and didn't eat it while we could have.
In fact, our downfall began because we let chance after chance slip away and still told ourselves that it was okay because we were better than others and didn't have to do it. So instead of history where we eat Prussia or Russia they ate us even though it seemed illogical and fucking impossible.

And this picture perfectly shows the illusions in which the elite lived and still live in large numbers. But the other side? It is not better, instead of a powerful Poland it sees a hole, a third world country that has to follow the West.
But just try to do something better and in between they will immediately try to kill you or educate you into one of their own like SJW. And that's both sides.

So basically you are saying that this superiority complex you describe fucked you over, yet you are still somehow kinda proud of it?

I must ask, are you secretly a Russian or EU agent?

When most people see you and hear you, and assume you are an average Pole they will run away, thinking that you must be a maniac or something.

 

[Batrix2070]

So basically you are saying that this superiority complex you describe fucked you over, yet you are still somehow kinda proud of it?

More specifically, I'm proud of our history and what we've accomplished and what we can do, but it scares me that some people think that because of that we don't have to do anything because we're great because we were great and everyone has to bow down to us without understanding that it was the result of the work of people who didn't think of themselves as the bundle of the world at all and their aversion to foreign ideas was based on different motives than all those doomsayers of the old power think.

Not familiar with with Lithuanian atm, but I am pretty sure that it is not a slavic language, also their alphabet and yours don't look all that similar according to google image search.

As for Polonization, if you look at the maps from before the significant cultural and ethnic exchange after WWII, you will notice a sharp expansion of Polish into Lithuania and Northern Belarus.
More importantly, Lithuanian national consciousness was reborn from the peasants because their elites felt themselves to be Polish-Lithuanian, i.e. Pole, Litvin as now is Pole Kashub.
They have a fair number of Polonisms, but that's obvious.
And most importantly, despite the exchange of nationalities, Polishness has survived in the former eastern borderlands and is still holding on, and Poland is not helping them to stay there, and more importantly is actively harming them by ignoring their existence and complaints as if they never existed, all in the name of the fight with Russia, as long as these countries are not against us.

 

[Agent23]

More specifically, I'm proud of our history and what we've accomplished and what we can do, but it scares me that some people think that because of that we don't have to do anything because we're great because we were great and everyone has to bow down to us without understanding that it was the result of the work of people who didn't think of themselves as the bundle of the world at all and their aversion to foreign ideas was based on different motives than all those doomsayers of the old power think.

As for Polonization, if you look at the maps from before the significant cultural and ethnic exchange after WWII, you will notice a sharp expansion of Polish into Lithuania and Northern Belarus.
More importantly, Lithuanian national consciousness was reborn from the peasants because their elites felt themselves to be Polish-Lithuanian, i.e. Pole, Litvin as now is Pole Kashub.
They have a fair number of Polonisms, but that's obvious.
And most importantly, despite the exchange of nationalities, Polishness has survived in the former eastern borderlands and is still holding on, and Poland is not helping them to stay there, and more importantly is actively harming them by ignoring their existence and complaints as if they never existed, all in the name of the fight with Russia, as long as these countries are not against us.

Yeah, ok, first off, the above is not all that impressive, I mean you got a few chunks of Ukraine and the baltics, and parts of Russia at a time when it was not really at its best, then you got beaten down in short order, and even then half the country wasn't "yours" to begin with because you were in some relation with the Lithuanians.

Also, you are basically saying that you Poles are screwing your own people, that is, ethnic Poles in other countries because you want somebody to chant "that is right" in response to "muh Russia".

Yeah, according to you alliance with Polands looks better and better, I mean, they'd backstab their own people for some petty vengence, if they'd do that to your own I wonder how severely they will fuck over their allies.

Also, I am pretty sure that most neighboring countries see a degree of loan-words.
My language is full of Turkish words, so, yeah, that really isn't proof or extraordinary.I mean, 30% of English is French, and the rest are a mix of Latin,other misc germanic and whatever was there before the saxons and normans went in.

Now, let us examine your cultural and technological output, shall we?

To see if that superiority complex has any foundation to stand on.

Russian ballet, literature, classical music and opera are famous around the world.

There are at least half a dozen world-renowned Russian writers alone that most people can name off hand.

What do you Poles have?

Only Polish writer I can think of off-hand is Stanislav Lem, and granted, he is pretty good, but do you have anything else?

I suppose there is that Witcher guy, too, but he is kinda sorta being chased down for copyright infringement, and I would rather keep the scope to this limited to just actual classics.

What about science?

Imperial Russia and the USSR had a lot of renowned scientists, Poland has kinda sorta a bit less notoriety in that field.

I mean Russia/the USSR had pioneers in chemistry, rocketry, mathematics, computer science, physics, despite the USSR's scientists being shackled by political doctrine, discrimination and lack of a proper patents system to foster innovation.
Just google AVL tree and periodic(aka Mendeleev) table of elements, lol.

Sounds to me like you ain't all that superior, dude.

This situation will not improve if you keep letting the likes of the UK brain-drain you, btw.

 

[Bacle]

I just want to say that a nuclear Poland would solve a lot of issues in the area, and I am all for it.

I mean Trump let Poland have civie nuke tech, so if the Poles want to pull some sneaky shit, they could probably have thier own nukes in a few years.

 

[Agent23]

I just want to say that a nuclear Poland would solve a lot of issues in the area, and I am all for it.

I mean Trump let Poland have civie nuke tech, so if the Poles want to pull some sneaky shit, they could probably have thier own nukes in a few years.

Yes, they can have something produced in the past 500 years besides the Witcher to be proud of.
Also two points,
1) FFS, Cyberpunk 2077 is a better game than the Witcher.Fucking fix the bugs, damn it!
2) The witcher's controls sucked fucking donkey ass!


Now, my humor aside, that will probably calm them down, and they can start playing with all pieces of the chessboard.

 

[Batrix2070]

Yeah, according to you alliance with Polands looks better and better, I mean, they'd backstab their own people for some petty vengence, if they'd do that to your own I wonder how severely they will fuck over their allies.

And here's the fucking best part, it's the allies who would fuck us, not us fucking them. Why? Because that's not allowed.

So the question is ours compatriots are allowed to? And here's the silence.

eah, ok, first off, the above is not all that impressive, I mean you got a few chunks of Ukraine and the baltics, and parts of Russia at a time when it was not really at its best, then you got beaten down in short order, and even then half the country wasn't "yours" to begin with because you were in some relation with the Lithuanians.

I look at it differently, do you see that furthest boundary? We conquered all that without an army. It was simply that people flocked to us of their own accord, or more accurately, to the conditions we created, our rights and approach to giving them.
As for the country, well, we're talking about the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth here right? It's not one but two countries under a common rule of nobility, but because we were the stronger side we were the dominant one, our army was the main force, our side of the union was the main part of the economy.
So the elites of this country became Polish, but in return the Polish peasants ceased to be Polish in the opinion of their masters and became chams and became an inert mass not different from Lithuanians, Belarusians, Ukrainians. Wait a minute, this reminds you of something by any chance? Like the elites of some pan-European monstrosity?
If it had not been for the partitions, all that we could hold, that is all the way to the Dnieper river, would have become Poland. Different from what it is, but it would be Poland.

I mean Trump let Poland have civie nuke tech, so if the Poles want to pull some sneaky shit, they could probably have thier own nukes in a few years.

The question is whether there will be such a smart Pole who will do it. Looking at our Democrats vs. Republicans version, I doubt they went about it.
Therefore, it will probably be as always, someone willing against the state will do it himself.
Maybe to make it more fun, we can at any time to do ourselves, we already have a science nuclear reactor for a research institute.
Even better, in the 70s of the People's Republic of Poland tried to make his own nuke!
But why didn't it happen? Who knows, one thing is for sure, the head of the Polish nuclear fusion program suffered a car accident, and due to the fact that he pulled it alone, the project was closed despite considerable successes.
But I agree, the nukes could solve half the problems with Russia. Either that, or our decision-makers would think that if we have an atom, then dick with the army and still let this considerable budget spend on salaries for pencil pushers and 50 generals. We have more of them than units for them!

 

[History Learner]

Nope, but stuff like this, if it did happen, would cause a diplomatic row and the MSM and the US deep state going ballistic, they love blaming stuff on Russia in which they had no hand in, like Trump winning in 2016.

Which I would've hoped would make a fair amount of "Right Wingers" in here skeptical enough of the current Anti-Russia atmosphere but no, they prove to remain sheep and get sucked right back into Neocon thinking with the right rhetoric. Seriously guys, stop and realize who exactly you are working with or, more accurately, being used by:

​

The protests were more than a demand for closer EU relations; they were a rejection of injustice as a way of life and of the post-Soviet politics of corruption and nepotism. Ukrainians took to the streets to denounce the country’s endemic corruption, from the grand corruption practiced by ex-president Yanukovych and his peers, to everyday corruption and petty unfairness—like the need to bribe a teacher to get better classroom conditions for your children, a doctor to get an appointment, or the traffic police to avoid unlawful fines.​

​

Civil society activists and NGOs played an important role in organizing this early protest movement. Ukraine’s independent media—including Ukrainska Pravda, Nashi Groshi (Our Money), and Slidstvo.info—were also pivotal in exposing the corruption that eventually brought people onto the streets in November 2013.​

Russia is completely in the right concerning everything related to Ukraine and, furthermore, NATO must be destroyed for the well being of European people.

 

[WolfBear]

Which I would've hoped would make a fair amount of "Right Wingers" in here skeptical enough of the current Anti-Russia atmosphere but no, they prove to remain sheep and get sucked right back into Neocon thinking with the right rhetoric. Seriously guys, stop and realize who exactly you are working with or, more accurately, being used by:

​

The protests were more than a demand for closer EU relations; they were a rejection of injustice as a way of life and of the post-Soviet politics of corruption and nepotism. Ukrainians took to the streets to denounce the country’s endemic corruption, from the grand corruption practiced by ex-president Yanukovych and his peers, to everyday corruption and petty unfairness—like the need to bribe a teacher to get better classroom conditions for your children, a doctor to get an appointment, or the traffic police to avoid unlawful fines.​

​

Civil society activists and NGOs played an important role in organizing this early protest movement. Ukraine’s independent media—including Ukrainska Pravda, Nashi Groshi (Our Money), and Slidstvo.info—were also pivotal in exposing the corruption that eventually brought people onto the streets in November 2013.​

Russia is completely in the right concerning everything related to Ukraine and, furthermore, NATO must be destroyed for the well being of European people.

FWIW, I don't see anything wrong with Ukrainians protesting against corruption nor with civil society activists and NGOs helping them do this. Ukraine is notoriously corrupt by European standards, after all:

FWIW, I'd be cool with a compromise where NATO didn't expand into Ukraine but where Ukraine was allowed to develop its own nuclear weapons and appropriate missile delivery systems for them in order to protect itself against future Russian aggression since Russian security guarantees such as the Budapest Memorandum haven't actually worked very well for Ukraine in the past. But there also need to be ironclad guarantees that Ukraine will never use force to resolve either the Crimea or the Donbass dispute.

Anyway:

GOP to Tucker Carlson: We’re the decision-makers on Ukraine, not you

“He’s obviously not in a position of being responsible for those decisions. And we are,” said Sen. John Cornyn.

www.politico.com

 

[Agent23]

FWIW, I don't see anything wrong with Ukrainians protesting against corruption nor with civil society activists and NGOs helping them do this. Ukraine is notoriously corrupt by European standards, after all:

FWIW, I'd be cool with a compromise where NATO didn't expand into Ukraine but where Ukraine was allowed to develop its own nuclear weapons and appropriate missile delivery systems for them in order to protect itself against future Russian aggression since Russian security guarantees such as the Budapest Memorandum haven't actually worked very well for Ukraine in the past. But there also need to be ironclad guarantees that Ukraine will never use force to resolve either the Crimea or the Donbass dispute.

Anyway:

GOP to Tucker Carlson: We’re the decision-makers on Ukraine, not you

“He’s obviously not in a position of being responsible for those decisions. And we are,” said Sen. John Cornyn.

www.politico.com

As long as pro-Russian areas get the right to a peaceful divorce I'd be fine with that, although with the state that the Ukrainian industry and economy are right now I doubt the will be able to build nukes and adequate delivery systems.
Then again, HBO would probably love to do a sequel to Chernobyl.

Also, this has the benefit of making Ukraine less liked internationally, and ensuring the pipeline of Ukrainian hookers stays strong, which is a win for me personally.

Also, once again,perception of anything is subjective.
IMO Ukraine is a lot more corrupt than Russia.
The WB's ease of doing business ranking is a much better indicator about economic health and thus, corruption, since corruption impacts business the most.
10-12 years ago Russia was outside of the top 100, now it has moved ahead.

 

[Agent23]

GOP to Tucker Carlson: We’re the decision-makers on Ukraine, not you

“He’s obviously not in a position of being responsible for those decisions. And we are,” said Sen. John Cornyn.

www.politico.com

Tucker and the entire GOP electorate to the GOP nomenclatura."Fuck you, since you loved Trump it is time for 10 Trump 2.0s, and/or Independent becoming bigger than Republican."

Nationwide Voter Registration Data by Party | Ballot Access News

Also, last I checked Politico is a leftist/liberal MSM newsrag, if anything anyone on the right directly or indirectly endorsed by it should be considered an enemy infiltrator, them moaning and bitching about Tucker is an endorsement for Tucker, IMHO.

I bet he'd hang it on his wall.

 

[Bacle]

It's hilarious that Politico thinks the GOP base cares about 'party orthodoxy' or wants to continue the Cold War.

This is just more 'Wag The Dog' warmongering to try to distract from problems at home.

Letting eastern Ukraine leave in a 'peaceful divorce' would solve a lot of these problems, but that option requires admitting people in the Donbass and other areas should get a say in thier futures as well.

It requires doing something taboo to the US warhawk establishment; admitting some people and places might honestly prefer to live under Russia influence than that of DC.

 

[Zachowon]

It's hilarious that Politico thinks the GOP base cares about 'party orthodoxy' or wants to continue the Cold War.

This is just more 'Wag The Dog' warmongering to try to distract from problems at home.

Letting eastern Ukraine leave in a 'peaceful divorce' would solve a lot of these problems, but that option requires admitting people in the Donbass and other areas should get a say in thier futures as well.

It requires doing something taboo to the US warhawk establishment; admitting some people and places might honestly prefer to live under Russia influence than that of DC.

You do know the Russians caused the unrest in Donbass so people like you would play bleeding heart right?
Like for fucks sake

 

[Bacle]

You do know the Russians caused the unrest in Donbass so people like you would play bleeding heart right?
Like for fucks sake

Sure, and it had nothing to do with corruption in Kiev, or the fact that the area was part of Russia to Gorby redrew the lines.

This is what I mean by US establishment and warhawks not being able to grock or admit that some people might honestly prefer to be in Russia's sphere than in DCs.

Why do the people of Donbass and other rebel areas have to remain in Kiev's control, if they honestly want to divorce themselves from Kiev's control?

Does right to self-determination disappear if people make the 'wrong' choice, in the eyes of DC?

 

[Zachowon]

Sure, and it had nothing to do with corruption in Kiev, or the fact that the area was part of Russia to Gorby redrew the lines.

This is what I mean by US establishment and warhawks not being able to grock or admit that some people might honestly prefer to be in Russia's sphere than in DCs.

Why do the people of Donbass and other rebel areas have to remain in Kiev's control, if they honestly want to divorce themselves from Kiev's control?

Does right to self-determination disappear if people make the 'wrong' choice, in the eyes of DC?

Why did they not separate to Russia when there was a Pro Russian government?
Why have the separatists not spread to other areas?
Why is it only in Donbass? Why are ethnic Russians fighting the Russians and taking up arms?
And Ukraine was part of Poland well before Russia ever had it.

 

[Bacle]

Why did they not separate to Russia when there was a Pro Russian government?

Because they didn't feel like their voices were being unheard and ignored, as they feel now/started feeling after the Maidan.

Why have the separatists not spread to other areas?

Because the other areas weren't part of Russia before Gorby redrew the lines.

Why is it only in Donbass? Why are ethnic Russians fighting the Russians and taking up arms?

Except it's not just Donbass, and the ones fighting against the rebel areas see themselves as Ukrainian first.

And Ukraine was part of Poland well before Russia ever had it.

Not in living memory; Gorby's redraw did happen in living memory.

These are not complicated things to understand, it's just these are the nuances to the conflict that run counter to the warhawk/DC narrative, and are thus ignored.

 

[Zachowon]

Because they didn't feel like their voices were being unheard and ignored, as they feel now/started feeling after the Maidan.

Because the other areas weren't part of Russia before Gorby redrew the lines.

Except it's not just Donbass, and the ones fighting against the rebel areas see themselves as Ukrainian first.

Not in living memory; Gorby's redraw did happen in living memory.

These are not complicated things to understand, it's just these are the nuances to the conflict that run counter to the warhawk/DC narrative, and are thus ignored.

Can you show me a map of Pre Soviet Ukraine?

Ah, so when Russia lays claim to land, because "Ethnic Russians" they are allowed to stage an insurgency for the pro Russians.
Why are no other areas rebelling? They could easy make all of Eastern Ukraine rebel of they wanted to be apart of Russia THAT badly. Yet why is only two areas?

The flaws here is you trust Russia