Russian-Ukrainian-Polish Eternal Friendship Thread

Agent23 said:
So basically a newly invented country like Yugoslavia, Ukraine, Macedonia and Czecho-Slovakia, built on tentative ethno-linguistic similarities and geography with some brand new creation myth to beef it up ideologically?
I am pretty sure the Walachians didn't identify themselves as Romans, also you are forgetting all the Avars, Kumans, Pechenegs, proto-Bulgars and other assorted tribes that went through there and settled.
Literally that whole place was under Bulgar or ottoman control much longer than the whole of Romania's actual history
There was never a separate country called Romania on that territory since before the Avar Khaganate.
If the Moldovans wish to stay out of Romania then that is their business, same how it is the business of the breakaway republics and Crimea if they want to stay out of Ukraine and rejoin Russia, and they overwhelmingly do.


Nope.Also, I asked you first, suspected komshu!
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Sounding suspiciously like a Russian that wants more land in eastern europe. Also what is a komshu? I googled it it said Turkish for neighbor? Urghh Turks are the worst, I'd rather be a Russian.

Seriously though you seem to be misinformed. First off the Czech's are not a "fake nation" Bohemia has existed since the middle ages, it was an electorate of the HRE. Czech's are the decendants of Bohemians. Hell play some history games like Kingdom come Deliverance. As for Romania again it's not a newly invented country again the current iteration is from the 1860's that's a little after the U.S. civil war this isn't a post colonial state made in 1950. And again that is the current iteration also the Ottomans did not rule that far, the area is highly christian unlike the Turkish heartlands, and is at the edge of their territory. The Romanian principalities were vassal states of the Ottoman empire on and off till 1860. But a vassal state is not a part of it's overlord. They are still semi independant, they mostly pay taxes and obey the overlord in foreign affairs the internal affairs of state are left to it to handle however it wishes. As for the Avars, Kumans, Pechengs, etc. and all other stepe nomads they came through the area might have left some DNA behind but just look at other lands that Mongols conqured unless the lands were genocided the nomads either died out or were absorbed into the locals, China isn't unique in that aspect. Also when I look at the pictures of Crusader Kings 2 of those guys they seem Asian, I don't think there are very many Asians in Eastern Europe. And now for Ukraine. Ukraine is not a fake nation either. There are differances between them and normal Russian lands. The Ukrainians while they are similar to Russians culturally and linguistically and ethnically, do have a few unique historical and cultural differances. Ukraine used to be in the march lands or the border of the Russian Empire (before tehy conqured Poland and other lands) The Ukrainians were offered more freedom from the Tzars than other Russian serfs, infact many of them were Cossacks and so they are used to having a degree of independence from central control. They appear to be a freedom loving people.
 
Marduk said:
Blood plasma, yes though not that indefinitely, more like a years varying with storage conditions, complete blood, no.
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Ah, ok, that makes more sense.
Zachowon said:
As Marduk said.
It is never good to bring blood out
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Yeah, seeing large whole blood supplies being shipped to close to a potential front line is not a good sign for deescalation.

That was one thing I remember specifically from MASH; large influxes of medical supplies, particularly blood, meant an offensive was likely on the horizon.
 
asiatimes.com

Ukraine is the hollow man of Europe - Asia Times

Ukraine is disappearing, for two reasons. It has one of the world’s lowest birth rates at just 1.23 children per female, and one of the world’s highest rates of out-migration. No other country has willed itself out of existence so decisively. Ukraine’s demographic decline is so pronounced that...
asiatimes.com asiatimes.com
 
WolfBear said:
Please compare this map to this map, though:

ukraine-census.png
Click to expand...

It's a case of playing with statistics; both maps are derived from the 2001 Census, so if the source of one is in question, both are. When you dig into the data though you see they are counting plurality as majority as well as counting Surzhyk as Ukrainian. In effect, it's a very classic stacking of the decks.
 
Bacle said:
Ah, ok, that makes more sense.
Yeah, seeing large whole blood supplies being shipped to close to a potential front line is not a good sign for deescalation.

That was one thing I remember specifically from MASH; large influxes of medical supplies, particularly blood, meant an offensive was likely on the horizon.
Click to expand...

Point of order on the blood supplies: outside of a few media sources claiming it, no evidence has emerged. We have vast amounts of videos, images and testimony to Russian military hardware and troops going West, but none exists of this supposed buildup of medical infrastructure. Entirely possible limited supplies are being used for the upcoming exercises in Belarus (a pre-caution because training accidents are rather common), and this has been blown out of proportion.

Overall, the last 24-36 hours has led to a fundamental shift in my perceptions of the situation. The Ukrainians are across the board saying they do not see what Washington is so concerned about, most prominently in the form of Zelensky's forceful rebuttals but even in the Ukrainian travel agency's statements encouraging people to still come and visit. This has led to the humorous episode of Russia's UK embassy tweeting positively of Zelensky, but more importantly in a changed Russian tone to the American written security letter. It's not without notice that senior officials within NATO nations, such as in Germany but also within the U.S. security establishment have started openly saying Ukraine is not going to be joining NATO anytime soon.

Regardless, to restate my past position just in case: Not One Drop of American Blood, Not One American Cent for Ukraine. We have no interests there, in economics or national security, don't let the same people who tricked us into Iraq convince you otherwise with their gaslighting. They do so only to advance their careers and/or material interests.
 
King Arts said:
Sounding suspiciously like a Russian that wants more land in eastern europe.
Click to expand...
You do realize that Russia is the biggest country on the planet already, right?

Eastern Europe has no resources and wasting money on the anti-Russia haters there doesn't work, go ask the USSR.

King Arts said:
Also what is a komshu? I googled it it said Turkish for neighbor? Urghh Turks are the worst, I'd rather be a Russian.
Click to expand...
Congratulations, you don't understand context, try again.


King Arts said:
Seriously though you seem to be misinformed. First off the Czech's are not a "fake nation" Bohemia has existed since the middle ages, it was an electorate of the HRE. Czech's are the decendants of Bohemians. Hell play some history games like Kingdom come Deliverance. As for Romania again it's not a newly invented country again the current iteration is from the 1860's that's a little after the U.S. civil war this isn't a post colonial state made in 1950. And again that is the current iteration also the Ottomans did not rule that far, the area is highly christian unlike the Turkish heartlands, and is at the edge of their territory. The Romanian principalities were vassal states of the Ottoman empire on and off till 1860. But a vassal state is not a part of it's overlord. They are still semi independant, they mostly pay taxes and obey the overlord in foreign affairs the internal affairs of state are left to it to handle however it wishes. As for the Avars, Kumans, Pechengs, etc. and all other stepe nomads they came through the area might have left some DNA behind but just look at other lands that Mongols conqured unless the lands were genocided the nomads either died out or were absorbed into the locals, China isn't unique in that aspect. Also when I look at the pictures of Crusader Kings 2 of those guys they seem Asian, I don't think there are very many Asians in Eastern Europe. And now for Ukraine. Ukraine is not a fake nation either. There are differances between them and normal Russian lands. The Ukrainians while they are similar to Russians culturally and linguistically and ethnically, do have a few unique historical and cultural differances. Ukraine used to be in the march lands or the border of the Russian Empire (before tehy conqured Poland and other lands) The Ukrainians were offered more freedom from the Tzars than other Russian serfs, infact many of them were Cossacks and so they are used to having a degree of independence from central control. They appear to be a freedom loving people.
Click to expand...

First off, I said Czecho-Slovakia, you know, an union state between the two.
Something called Ukraine arose, with western aid, in part of what is today's Ukraine, that doesn't mean that there is not a major part of that country that doesn't have to do with it, since they were forced to join the Ukrainian SSR by the Communists.
Whatever "Ukrainian" identity there is can stay in its original borders.
The breakaway republics are trying to write a historic wrong, you know, victims of Communism and all that.

Cossacks never stopped being Russian btw, the fact that they took up a semi-nomadic lifestyle so as to preserve their freedoms and later became the Tzar's enforcers is another matter entirely.
 
History Learner said:
Point of order on the blood supplies: outside of a few media sources claiming it, no evidence has emerged. We have vast amounts of videos, images and testimony to Russian military hardware and troops going West, but none exists of this supposed buildup of medical infrastructure. Entirely possible limited supplies are being used for the upcoming exercises in Belarus (a pre-caution because training accidents are rather common), and this has been blown out of proportion.

Overall, the last 24-36 hours has led to a fundamental shift in my perceptions of the situation. The Ukrainians are across the board saying they do not see what Washington is so concerned about, most prominently in the form of Zelensky's forceful rebuttals but even in the Ukrainian travel agency's statements encouraging people to still come and visit. This has led to the humorous episode of Russia's UK embassy tweeting positively of Zelensky, but more importantly in a changed Russian tone to the American written security letter. It's not without notice that senior officials within NATO nations, such as in Germany but also within the U.S. security establishment have started openly saying Ukraine is not going to be joining NATO anytime soon.

Regardless, to restate my past position just in case: Not One Drop of American Blood, Not One American Cent for Ukraine. We have no interests there, in economics or national security, don't let the same people who tricked us into Iraq convince you otherwise with their gaslighting. They do so only to advance their careers and/or material interests.
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The Ukrainians got their financial bailout, so they are happy, but the shenanigans tanked the overall economy, with bank runs and supply hoarding, and things escalated internationally.
Remittances btw, also make a massive additional boost, probably as big as the one you get from Eurofunds.

The whole reason, IMO for this mess is that the Ukrainian oligarchy decided that they can get more Euroslop and USslop for their troughs, Putin just wasn't willing to give them as much in bribes as the EU and US usually do.
Take a look at https://assets.kpmg/content/dam/kpmg/pdf/2016/06/EU-Funds-in-Central-and-Eastern-Europe.pdf then scale it up by Ukraine's population.We are talking about a boost of about 15%(Probably far more since Ukraine is poorer) of GDP, and at least 30% of that will go into some Oligarch's pockets.
 
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Agent23 said:
The Ukrainians got their financial bailout, so they are happy, but the shenanigans tanked the overall economy, with bank runs and supply hoarding, and things escalated internationally.

The whole reason, IMO for this mess is that the Ukrainian oligarchy decided that they can get more Euroslop and USslop for their troughs, Putin just wasn't willing to give them as much in bribes as the EU and US usually do.
Take a look at https://assets.kpmg/content/dam/kpmg/pdf/2016/06/EU-Funds-in-Central-and-Eastern-Europe.pdf then scale it up by Ukraine's population.We are talking about a boost of about 15%(Probably far more since Ukraine is poorer) of GDP, and at least 30% of that will go into some Oligarch's pockets.
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If, as it is starting to appear, this was a made up crisis, I think the likely culprits are our own security establishment and defense industry interests here in the United States. The Ukrainians have been counter-signalling the current crisis pretty consistently, so I can't blame them for this recent episode.
 
History Learner said:
If, as it is starting to appear, this was a made up crisis, I think the likely culprits are our own security establishment and defense industry interests here in the United States. The Ukrainians have been counter-signalling the current crisis pretty consistently, so I can't blame them for this recent episode.
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IMO your security establishment is in cahoots with them, they get to beg for more money, the security establishment gets some of that in the form of arms sales and it also justifies its own miserable existence.
 


They really, really do not like that Ukraine's pres embarrassed Biden, and are now going to start rumors that the Ukraine's pres is compromised by Russia to get revenge.

This is why I do not trust either side when it comes to the Ukraine situation.
 
Even Ukrainians don't believe there will be any invasion, but Biden regime still keeps the hysteria going in vain hope that it will happen.
 
Butch R. Mann said:
Even Ukrainians don't believe there will be any invasion, but Biden regime still keeps the hysteria going in vain hope that it will happen.
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Yep, and now they are trying to screw with Ukraine's pres because he embarrassed Biden.

Though I guess driving Ukraine away from DC's orbit via stupidity, pettiness, and the senility of Biden would deescalate things.
 
History Learner said:
It's a case of playing with statistics; both maps are derived from the 2001 Census, so if the source of one is in question, both are. When you dig into the data though you see they are counting plurality as majority as well as counting Surzhyk as Ukrainian. In effect, it's a very classic stacking of the decks.
Click to expand...

If you want to look at oblast-level data, then here's a map of the Russophone percentage of the total population in each Ukrainian oblast in 2001:

Ukraine_census_2001_Russian.svg


But Yeah, Surzhyk is not counted here, I think.

Anyway, Crimea, Sevastopol, and the Donbass are all more than 2/3 Russophone. Kharkiv, Zaporhizhya, and Odessa are all between 40% and 50% Russophone. No other Ukrainian oblast is 1/3 Russophone or more.
 
Agent23 said:
You do realize that Russia is the biggest country on the planet already, right?

Eastern Europe has no resources and wasting money on the anti-Russia haters there doesn't work, go ask the USSR.


Congratulations, you don't understand context, try again.




First off, I said Czecho-Slovakia, you know, an union state between the two.
Something called Ukraine arose, with western aid, in part of what is today's Ukraine, that doesn't mean that there is not a major part of that country that doesn't have to do with it, since they were forced to join the Ukrainian SSR by the Communists.
Whatever "Ukrainian" identity there is can stay in its original borders.
The breakaway republics are trying to write a historic wrong, you know, victims of Communism and all that.

Cossacks never stopped being Russian btw, the fact that they took up a semi-nomadic lifestyle so as to preserve their freedoms and later became the Tzar's enforcers is another matter entirely.
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Ok so why does it matter how big Russia is? They were big before they conquered Poland yet they still did it. Russia is an imperial power hungry for land and resources.
 
WolfBear said:
Russia already has enough land and resources already. :)
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What is enough?
Do you honestly think that if Poland voted to join Russia (ha) Russia would say “no thanks we are full.”
No they’d pounce on the opportunity because they are smart a larger population and more land is useful.
 
King Arts said:
What is enough?
Do you honestly think that if Poland voted to join Russia (ha) Russia would say “no thanks we are full.”
No they’d pounce on the opportunity because they are smart a larger population and more land is useful.
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Similar to Canada joining the US?
 
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