Russia-Ukraine War Politics Thread Mk. 2

Slippery slope dictates it has to start somewhere. Remember how in the West we went from "Look just ignore them, let them do whatever they want in their own bedrooms" to "Pedophilia is a legitimate sexual behavior, children can totally choose their own sexualities too"

"Give people free will and let them have the ability to think and they will eventually stab you in the back."

Same logic.
 
Shrug. All the "normies" I know are really pissed off about the border being wide open and think we should fix that before any more foreign aid to anywhere.
The idea that one should be tied to the other is not exactly the normie idea. Those are independent problems.

By common sense, doing one stupid thing and insisting it keeps being done until a different also stupid thing stops being done is nonsense. The obvious thing to do is stopping doing as much stupid shit as possible as soon as it is possible instead. We can be honest here, it's a sort of factional, sub-partisan game of chicken, and it's not good for either side.
 
Priorities.

Others might just see their own border as more important than Ukraines?

The general line is "If we could secure a border, and only one, let's make it ours?"


There's also a few who point out that the money and equipment being sent to Ukraine could be used right here, to close the US border.



Can't blame the "normies" for not caring about the far side of the world when they're being screwed in various ways in the US.
 
Priorities.

Others might just see their own border as more important than Ukraines?

The general line is "If we could secure a border, and only one, let's make it ours?"
Again, these two situations need completely different different assets, decisions, agencies. However epic would it be to use GMLRS and 155mm artillery shells to secure the southern border... I think the damn bleeding hearts in Washington and the UN alike would have a problem with that. Even the Saudis "merely" use lighter crew served weapons like mortars and machineguns for that.
There's also a few who point out that the money and equipment being sent to Ukraine could be used right here, to close the US border.
Merely not using money on making migrants happier, healthier and more comfortable alone would help, and the cost of that would be negative.
Can't blame the "normies" for not caring about the far side of the world when they're being screwed in various ways in the US.
That sounds like ideological isolationists, not normies.
 
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That sounds like ideological isolationists, not normies.

Maduk, if you're barely making ends meet, and multiple Gov agencies are making things worse for you, in various ways, and your kids school is a nightmare, and your friends are all on drugs, some legal, some not, you're not going to have much left for Ukraine.


If you see that as a political position, I don't know what to tell. you.
 
Honestly, the problem with Ukraine/Israel* support right now is that there's so many problems in the US that a lot of people feel that we need to sort out shit out before we get around to helping anyone else.

Then there's the whole thing where our politicians basically tie 410 billion things onto what should be a single issue bill, making it an all or nothing thing to extort one side or the other into supporting it.

A program that was more like Lend-Lease and actively being used to spur industrial production in the US would have way more support than the current efforts.

*That has its own separate challenges we don't have to get into.
 
Maduk, if you're barely making ends meet, and multiple Gov agencies are making things worse for you, in various ways, and your kids school is a nightmare, and your friends are all on drugs, some legal, some not, you're not going to have much left for Ukraine.


If you see that as a political position, I don't know what to tell. you.
20 years ago, 10 years ago, 5 years ago, the problem was the same.
It was never about money.
Those who claim it is about money are either retarded, playing coy or lying to your face.
I will not accept that argument because i know the above.
Do you?

It is about certain political strategies, initiatives, and ideologies causing a lack of political will to address these issues. If money was the main issue, the problem would be over before it started.
Money is just a more defensible argument to argue about in front of the public for those who don't really want to fix it than the real problems.
But if you repeat the money argument you are just playing a background actor in the dog and pony show meant to convince the public that it's just a funding problem and it's totally not about other things.
 
It is about certain political strategies, initiatives, and ideologies causing a lack of political will to address these issues. If money was the main issue, the problem would be over before it started.
That's true.

But we're watching. I know a number of people who aren't. They don't care about the why, they just want it to stop.



Can't say I blame them.
 
Correction: I somehow added nomads in Norway and Sweden to the Finnish nomads. It's 4.8 million city dwellers and just under 800,000 nomads. Still quite an accomplishment to build almost 51,000 continously updated and rebuilt bunkers.
Peed myself, thank you.
Now back to cleaning coffee from screen ...
 
Priorities.

Others might just see their own border as more important than Ukraines?

The general line is "If we could secure a border, and only one, let's make it ours?"


There's also a few who point out that the money and equipment being sent to Ukraine could be used right here, to close the US border.



Can't blame the "normies" for not caring about the far side of the world when they're being screwed in various ways in the US.
Normies support both
 
Sometimes all the options are bastards, and the only choice is whose bastards should those be.
Yes and choosing tranny rapists is worse. At least own up to it.
Destroying everything is a part of commie culture.
:rolleyes:
Thats not a culture.

Well at that point in history it was done with picking fights with USA, so it wasn't?
Because it was a declining empire.

Was it really the case? Where were Swiss colonies?
Welp, guess colonialism was not made this extra unpopular thing to do on international stage back then yet, and as the saying goes, if its down to us or them...
You do realize that Switzerland was blessed with mountains for protection. Islands are better than being landlocked, but being surrounded by mountains is best, because an island can be taken by a navy.

That would be great in some ways, as it would finally get USA an official admission of Mexican government de facto not only legally recognizing, but protecting drug smuggling into US, with all the implications of that.
So would you be angry and horrified if somehow Mexico did beat the U.S. and impose a deal similar to the British put on the Chinese?

Woulda coulda shoulda. No one knows that. No one knows how well would it work out if it happened.
Don't be an idiot, we know force would be used to open up trade.
You mean the sanctions it got hit with for starting wars, the ones it got hit for playing not-sanctions with gas, or the ones it got hit with for assassinating people in NATO countries with nerve gas?
Are you whinning about it? I thought your morality was based on might makes right? Well the West did not attack Russia for that. If it's wrong for Russia to do that to Western nations, is it also wrong for Western nations to do that in Middle Eastern or African nations.

Unfortunately seems like absolutely no one in the world except the countries ruled by hippies is interested in emulating their tactics, just exploiting the fact others are retarded enough to follow them.
There's a reason why soviets considered them useful idiots and supported them like that. Their ideas and tactics are great... to wish upon your worst enemies.
Yes because the boomers aren't in charge of the U.S. now.

So your imaginary globohomo has guts to do just about the same as Russia and China actually do.
I'm sorry show me how Russia or China is bringing in tons of immigrants, how they are making a mockery of traditional religion and culture, and how Russia and China is mutilating young children into the tranny lunatics? I don't think it's any foreign group doing any of those things.

It wasn't worth it, but it's also irrelevant, because that's extremely unlikely. We have rough numbers of warheads, yields, missiles etc. There's not enough for the kind of total destruction you imagine, period, it would take some kind of asspull on Russian side.
Ok thank god we agree it was not worth it. So the only differance is that unlike you I'm not a gambler and don't feel like risking that outcome no matter how "unlikely" it is. Answer this Marduk you are Polish right? I understand you don't like Russia and don't want to be under it's yoke. However if you knew for a fact that there were only two options either A what I describbed above, or B Russia gets it's sphere of influence minus Poland(so you are free in NATO) which option would you prefer to have a free Western Poland that is rich but also a Russian Empire nearby, OR the Russian empire broken but Poland is gone from this world also. If those ARE the only options for this hypotetical wouldn't you be willing to leave Ukraine to it's fate?

The Japanese wanted the demilitarization, and it was the US which didn't want Japan to demilitarize after Korea happened.

Like, we have Americans increasingly hating the military, the national security state, and the military-industrial complex after messes like Afghanistan and Iraq. What do you think the average Japanese person thought about their military after the military led them into a disaster thousands of time worse?

The average Japanese does support LGBT rights, for better or for worse, regardless of you peoples' fantasy of Grorious Nippon. You can complain about it if you like. But if it's only being done because of evil America, then I suppose that literally no one in the history of the world can ever organically support such things.
Are you? Did you not pay attention to what this started over? I'm not complaining over it, I actually think it went rather well for the most part. I am just saying that we did intervene in their government, I just want people like Marduk to not argue so dishonestly and say "We did not change the culture beacuse this.." I'd rather him say "Yes we changed the culture and made it better, it's based to do this."
I'd respect the second argument.

It was because they freaking lost a war.
What, should we have just said "alright you lost, your good to be free"
I mean not every war has to be fought to complete conquest and occupation. You get that historically that you can beat someone, and demand terms of surrender and reparations and things like that?

The embargo slowed down thier overall production, and the fact thay were fighting the US and the Allies on the islands took away power that the Army there would have used against China.
Remember the alliesnwere not far from China most of the war
You do know that China is big right? Like REALLY REALLY BIG. Japan occupying China would have been their Vietnam they would be losing countless resources and could very easily lead to discontent and rebellion at home, because it's not been pacified and keeps being a loss. It's very possible that the Nazis and the Imperial Japanese could have been defeated without us doing anything.
 
Yes and choosing tranny rapists is worse. At least own up to it.
All should die in the end, if changing the sequence makes it more optimal to achieve that, why not.
:rolleyes:
Thats not a culture.
For practical purposes it is, even stone age cannibal rapists are.
Because it was a declining empire.


You do realize that Switzerland was blessed with mountains for protection. Islands are better than being landlocked, but being surrounded by mountains is best, because an island can be taken by a navy.
Still, those are exceptions, even if they happened for reasons.
So would you be angry and horrified if somehow Mexico did beat the U.S. and impose a deal similar to the British put on the Chinese?
We would have no reason to be US allies after the implications of that hit so NATO would not exist since a long time and i wouldn't care much.
Don't be an idiot, we know force would be used to open up trade.
Or it wouldn't be. Or it would and then it would fail. If you want me to be sure, lend me your time machine.
Are you whinning about it? I thought your morality was based on might makes right? Well the West did not attack Russia for that. If it's wrong for Russia to do that to Western nations, is it also wrong for Western nations to do that in Middle Eastern or African nations.
There are different options between peace and attack, like sanctions. Might doesn't make right, but civilization to some degree does, and if it wants to call itself that it has to have some might at least.
Yes because the boomers aren't in charge of the U.S. now.
It's never about boomers or not but which section of what generation. Some boomers hated commies, and some were their willing useful idiots.
I'm sorry show me how Russia or China is bringing in tons of immigrants, how they are making a mockery of traditional religion and culture, and how Russia and China is mutilating young children into the tranny lunatics? I don't think it's any foreign group doing any of those things.
Here, they absolutely do that:
Ok thank god we agree it was not worth it. So the only differance is that unlike you I'm not a gambler and don't feel like risking that outcome no matter how "unlikely" it is. Answer this Marduk you are Polish right? I understand you don't like Russia and don't want to be under it's yoke.
Well, do you want to be under its yoke? Does anyone? Volunteers? I'm pretty sure they are taking immigrants and some are in fact dumb enough to take that deal considering the numbers so the doors are open as we can see.
However if you knew for a fact that there were only two options either A what I describbed above, or B Russia gets it's sphere of influence minus Poland(so you are free in NATO)
Baltics? Belarus? Our other neighbor? Sorry, but i have to say isolationist doctrines and geostrategy do not fit nicely.
which option would you prefer to have a free Western Poland that is rich but also a Russian Empire nearby, OR the Russian empire broken but Poland is gone from this world also. If those ARE the only options for this hypotetical wouldn't you be willing to leave Ukraine to it's fate?
A free western Poland with a Russian Empire nearby is not be particularly rich because investors will fear war, its trade options will be more limited without a pro-western Ukraine, and it will have to spend a lot of money (no, not 2.1% GDP "a lot", more like 5-10%) on defenses, so your hypothetical implies accepting fiction.
In your alternate reality, it would make sense and i could be convinced to that, but in reality, these topics are more tied than either of us would like. We would love for what happens with our neighbors to absolutely not affect our prosperity and safety at all, we would be completely free to care and virtue signal or not, doesn't matter, we could even afford to be isolationists then, but that is the definition of foreign policy ignorance.
So overall, i agree - in an alternate reality, isolationism can be perfectly reasonable, even for Poland, if it's alternate enough. In our reality though, it's total BS, we have to care whether Russia can play empire next to us or not, whether we like it or not.
 
Normies support both
No as of last year only 53% of Americans think the aid we've given to Ukraine has been worth it[1] and only 60% think we should continue. 45-50% think we are spending too much already[2] (again from end of last year.). Half of Americans think that Ukraine should negotiate with Russia[1].

Normies are split down the middle on this, not at all like the border[4], or protectionist industrial policies for that matter[3], which has overwhelming support of the public.

1. American Public Support for Assistance to Ukraine Has Waned, But Still Considerable
2. Almost half of Americans think U.S. spending too much on Ukraine aid, AP-NORC poll says
3. Free Trade with Exceptions: Public Opinion and Industrial Policy
4. Having trouble finding raw data on this, but both left and right wing sources place public support for fixing the border crisis at 70-80%
 
Ukraine should negotiate with Russia[1].
They did. Russia stalled long enough to resupply, reorganize, rearm and launched a major offensive when Ukraine refused Russia demanding Ukraine join the Union. Ukraine offered the Donbass, then Crimea as a buffer state in a counter offer. Russia attacked blaming Ukraine and the USA for warmongering. There is no negotiation with Russia. Only morons believe it is possible to do so. Especially when they've used every ceasefire and negotiation in the last several centuries to build up for an offensive. The world would be better off with European Russia, and China burned in fire.
 
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No as of last year only 53% of Americans think the aid we've given to Ukraine has been worth it[1] and only 60% think we should continue. 45-50% think we are spending too much already[2] (again from end of last year.). Half of Americans think that Ukraine should negotiate with Russia[1].

Normies are split down the middle on this, not at all like the border[4], or protectionist industrial policies for that matter[3], which has overwhelming support of the public.

1. American Public Support for Assistance to Ukraine Has Waned, But Still Considerable
2. Almost half of Americans think U.S. spending too much on Ukraine aid, AP-NORC poll says
3. Free Trade with Exceptions: Public Opinion and Industrial Policy
4. Having trouble finding raw data on this, but both left and right wing sources place public support for fixing the border crisis at 70-80%
You can have both....
Normies don't answer polls and just live thier lives....
Like holy hell why is it a this or that?
 

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