Nord Stream 1 and 2 Attacked

[Terthna]

No, i'm accusing everyone yelling that they just know USA blew up NS because reasons (insert a bunch of half assed conspirationist logic jumps) of "simping for Putin-senpai".
In fact on this very page on the thread i outright said that the Ukraine variant is more plausible than accusing USA of it, so do you even read my posts before whining about them?
And if you look at the activity of those specific posters in Ukraine and Russia related threads, you will see that they do absolutely nothing to invalidate that theory.

What I see is a lot of sustained, unrestrained hatred for anyone who disagree with you; and not just on the topic of Ukraine. Whether you think it's justified or not does not change the fact that your words does neither you, nor your side, any favors.

Can the supposedly victimized people raise their hands and make a good argument that they are very much against Russian geopolitical victories in Europe based on their past posting as opposed to being sympathetic towards that prospect?

*Raises hand* You do remember that you've levied many, many insults in my direction over things my position on the 2014 Maidan coup, and the political situation in Ukraine over the past few decades, right? And calling me a Russian shill, despite the fact that I've condemned the invasion and the actions of Russia since it began numerous times?

What fucking evidence? Challenge me.

So 6 people invovled total, 2 divers, and the explosives were dumped on the pipeline from a Ukrainian owned yacht rented in Poland.

So Ukraine now arrests a Ukranian ex military / intelligence fall-guy for independently blowing up the nordstream using a rented sailboat and 6 rando helper dudes. All alone without any support from any government.

They finally admit it was not russia.
The new narrative is that this is definitely NOT anything involving any government and was just a rando citizen.

Also, Ukraine in no way shape or form had the capability of doing this and are blatantly taking the blame for the USA.

Corporate media are all saying it now.
Surely you who have oh so trusted their narrative of it being Russia all along will not become a conspiracy theorist all of a sudden. /sarcasm

The top 3 results on a simple search:

washington post

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/11/11/nordstream-bombing-ukraine-chervinsky/

rueters

Ukrainian officer coordinated Nord Stream attack: Washington Post

A Ukrainian military officer coordinated last year's attack on the Nord Stream natural gas pipeline, the Washington Post reported on Saturday, citing anonymous sources in Ukraine and Europe.

www.reuters.com

msn

MSN

3 big names in corrupt liberal corporate fake news sites.
All now silently abandoning their previous claims they made that Russia definitely did it and that anyone who says otherwise is a conspiracy theorist vatnik.

Instead Corporate media is pushing a new narrative.
Independent retired guy on a sailboat with some buddies did it.
And was arrested for it by the Righteous Ukrainian govt.

Also please note that in my previous post I did not say he did it, I said this is the new narrative of western media. My take is that fake news is lying again and it was done by the USA.

Oh yea, and as a total coincidence the guy is a very outspoken political enemy of Zelensky.

Mind you, I'm not saying the I agree with mrttao that the United States actually did. This is just evidence supporting the position that Russia might not have done it.

 

[Marduk]

What I see is a lot of sustained, unrestrained hatred for anyone who disagree with you; and not just on the topic of Ukraine. Whether you think it's justified or not does not change the fact that your words does neither you, nor your side, any favors.

Not for anyone. I can point you to several cases of me disagreeing with people over different things without "unrestrained hatred".
The hatred is reserved for certain specific kinds of disagreements, you can pattern recognize which.

*Raises hand* You do remember that you've levied many, many insults in my direction over things my position on the 2014 Maidan coup, and the political situation in Ukraine over the past few decades, right? And calling me a Russian shill, despite the fact that I've condemned the invasion and the actions of Russia since it began numerous times?

Because the very Maidan coup theory is one convergent with the Russian propaganda line regarding the events in question.

Mind you, I'm not saying the I agree with mrttao that the United States actually did. This is just evidence supporting the position that Russia might not have done it.

Yes...
And what do my actual, written by me posts say about the topic?
See the difference?
Still sticking by your point that "Marduk is accusing anyone who thinks this story about Ukranians being behind the blowing up of the Nord Stream pipeline might be true of "simping for Putin-senpai"?

 

[Terthna]

Not for anyone. I can point you to several cases of me disagreeing with people over different things without "unrestrained hatred".
The hatred is reserved for certain specific kinds of disagreements, you can pattern recognize which.

You might actually believe that of yourself, but it doesn't match with what I've seen of you. To be perfectly honest, and I've said this before, as a person you disgust me on a level that makes me sincerely wish you weren't a Mod, so that I could have added you to my Ignore list a long time ago and forgotten you exist.

Because the very Maidan coup theory is one convergent with the Russian propaganda line regarding the events in question.

I'm not noticing an apology there; not that I really expect one from you, of all people.

Yes...
And what do my actual, written by me posts say about the topic?
See the difference?
Still sticking by your point that "Marduk is accusing anyone who thinks this story about Ukranians being behind the blowing up of the Nord Stream pipeline might be true of "simping for Putin-senpai"?

Yes, despite your attempt to backtrack and muddy the water to try and make yourself seem more reasonable; something you frequently do, in my experience.

 

[Captain X]

To be fair pretty much no one actually expected Russia to do that if memory serves.

I mean... I did.

They'd built up for months beforehand and I suspected. And then a bridge went up on day and I knew for certain. And yet certain people posted stuff like this:

 

[Marduk]

You might actually believe that of yourself, but it doesn't match with what I've seen of you. To be perfectly honest, and I've said this before, as a person you disgust me on a level that makes me sincerely wish you weren't a Mod, so that I could have added you to my Ignore list a long time ago and forgotten you exist.

Likewise, you stubbornly represent an abominable political faction from my perspective.

I'm not noticing an apology there; not that I really expect one from you, of all people.

And you can stop expecting, you deserve scorn for the word games you try to play with me, not an apology for not letting you win these games.

Yes, despite your attempt to backtrack and muddy the water to try and make yourself seem more reasonable; something you frequently do, in my experience.

Backtrack? If you think i'm backtracking, i have a genuine time machine to sell you, don't randomly accuse people of backtracking when we are posting on a forum and old posts are very much available.
Read the last sentence of this post.
Also this few days old post in another thread.
Lack of reading comprehension on your part is not my fault.

 

[Terthna]

Likewise, you stubbornly represent an abominable political faction from my perspective.

Well, at least we can both agree that we despise each other. I'm at the point where I second-guess myself whenever we end up sharing similar positions on a topic; like with the whole situation in Israel.

And you can stop expecting, you deserve scorn for the word games you try to play with me, not an apology for not letting you win these games.

That you think this is a game to be won says everything about the sort of person you are more succinctly than I ever could.

Backtrack? If you think i'm backtracking, i have a genuine time machine to sell you, don't randomly accuse people of backtracking when we are posting on a forum and old posts are very much available.
Read the last sentence of this post.
Also this few days old post in another thread.
Lack of reading comprehension on your part is not my fault.

Love it how some "right wingers" are willing to take big name leftist journo scum at their word, but only when they join in on simping for Putin-senpai.

Neither is your goldfish-esque memory mine.

 

[Marduk]

Well, at least we can both agree that we despise each other. I'm at the point where I second-guess myself whenever we end up sharing similar positions on a topic; like with the whole situation in Israel.

As for your faction alignment that i'm finding abominable, the last sentence of this much earlier post sums it up well.
Armchair General's DonbAss Derailed Discussion Thread (Topics Include History, Traps, and the Ongoing Slavic Civil War plus much much more)

Sorry, but i'm not interested in joining the "enlightened moderate" clown club of "well yeah the other guys are doing bad things but also we should not do much, if anything about it, because doing things would make us bad too also USA/NATO/West/Israel now too? has to navel gaze about everything happening in the world". I just don't see the appeal, it's just pathetic at best, and useful idiocy at worst.

Neither is your goldfish-esque memory mine.

And i stand by these words. The quote i was replying to outright claimed USA did it, referring to a leftist journo giving shit "evidence", not that "Ukraine may have done it", so i'm still confused why the fuck are complaining about me yelling at people for a different thing than what i'm actually yelling at them for.

 

[Terthna]

As for your faction alignment that i'm finding abominable, the last sentence of this much earlier post sums it up well.
Armchair General's DonbAss Derailed Discussion Thread (Topics Include History, Traps, and the Ongoing Slavic Civil War plus much much more)

Sorry, but i'm not interested in joining the "enlightened moderate" clown club of "well yeah the other guys are doing bad things but also we should not do much, if anything about it, because doing things would make us bad too also USA/NATO/West/Israel has to navel gaze about everything happening in the world". I just don't see the appeal, it's just pathetic at best, and useful idiocy at worst.

When did I ever say that? That is not, and has never been, my position on Ukraine. Just because I know enough about history and foreign policy to recognize and point out the reasons for why Russia are doing what they're doing, and how America and Europe are at least partially at fault, does not mean I'm trying to make excuses for them, or argue we shouldn't be doing anything to help Ukraine.

And i stand by these words. The quote i was replying to outright claimed USA did it, referring to a leftist journo giving shit "evidence", not that "Ukraine may have done it", so i'm still confused why the fuck are complaining about me yelling at people for a different thing than what i'm actually yelling at them for.

Fair enough; I apologize for misrepresenting what you actually said.

 

[Marduk]

When did I ever say that?

For example, here and here.
You say supporting "western Ukraine" is not a virtue because they have a government of crooks bigots and murderers, West has propped up Ukrainian nationalists and started the conflict, which you say is about NATO encroachment on Russia.
And then you are acting shocked, surprised and even offended why would anyone throw you into the vatnik bag.

That is not, and has never been, my position on Ukraine. Just because I know enough about history and foreign policy to recognize and point out the reasons for why Russia are doing what they're doing, and how America and Europe are at least partially at fault, does not mean I'm trying to make excuses for them, or argue we shouldn't be doing anything to help Ukraine.

So, do you stand by the opinions you stated in the linked posts?

Fair enough; I apologize for misrepresenting what you actually said.

Great.

 

[Zachowon]

Well, the 'energy reproachment' faction in Russia and Germany had been making noises about keeping Europe as an energy customer before then.

After that, well, they couldn't make the money selling gas to Europe anymore the easy way they had been before, with only 1 of 4 pipes able to function (and that's what the media doesn't say, that one pipe is still running).

So the pro-invasion faction in Russia got handed a win in keeping any energy deal from disrupting the genocide they wanted to under take.



There is still the Russian ship that was over the pipeline area before the blasts.

The tiff over it inside Ukraine itself is the first thing that I saw which actually made me think anyone in Ukraine had ordered or done anything related to it.

I mean different factions in Ukraine, Russia, the US, and NATO in general who stood to benefit from those pipes being blown and that connection to the European markets/western money cut. Only people who didn't benefit were some western friendly oligarchs in Russia and some Russian-friendly German businessmen who still wanted to trade with the Bear.

I now think it may be a case of that one Polandball meme where multiple countries put bombs on the pipes for different reasons.

What I'd be really interested to learn is where the 1 surviving pipe leads to and who is buying that gas.

Credit to @Marduk for laying that all out.



We have to give credit to @Zachowon for calling it for over a month before hand.

Even I didn't think it was really happening till that bridge suddenly went up on the Belarusian side of the Chernobyl Exclusion Zone and the 1st Guards Tank Army showed up in Belgorod at about the same time.

Hard not to see it coming man.
Plus I would be bad at my job if I didnt

 

[Terthna]

For example, here and here.
You say supporting "western Ukraine" is not a virtue because they have a government of crooks bigots and murderers, West has propped up Ukrainian nationalists and started the conflict, which you say is about NATO encroachment on Russia.
And then you are acting shocked, surprised and even offended why would anyone throw you into the vatnik bag.

So, do you stand by the opinions you stated in the linked posts?

Great.

I stand by all those things I said, and do not see how they're incongruent with the position that what Russia is doing is wrong, and should be opposed; just reasons for why they're doing it, and why we need to be very careful about how we support Ukraine. I don't want our money ending up in anyone's pockets instead, or used to prop up yet another extremist group who's going to become a thorn in our sides in a few decades. I want oversight; an acknowledgement that throwing money and resources at a problem blindly isn't an inherently moral thing to do, and that pointing out how they could be misused does not mean I'm shilling for the enemy.

 

[Husky_Khan]

Nordstream sounds racist anyways.

 

[Marduk]

I stand by all those things I said, and do not see how they're incongruent with the position that what Russia is doing is wrong, and should be opposed; just reasons for why they're doing it, and why we need to be very careful about how we support Ukraine. I don't want our money ending up in anyone's pockets instead, or used to prop up yet another extremist group who's going to become a thorn in our sides in a few decades. I want oversight; an acknowledgement that throwing money and resources at a problem blindly isn't an inherently moral thing to do, and that pointing out how they could be misused does not mean I'm shilling for the enemy.

So i was right, you are trying to set up a completely non-serious, obsessive fence sitting based policy based on waving arms, parroting the arguments of the side you say is bad, no matter how malicious and inaccurate, and saying that while the bad side should be opposed, on the other hand advocating for extreme stinginess and paranoia in providing resources and financing for that.
So say you aren't shilling for the enemy, but at the same time you are quite clear that very little, if anything, should be done against the enemy and not necessarily in a timely manner, which is something the enemy propaganda is also enthusiastic about recommending.
Do you understand now why your completely unserious even at the face of it policy recommendations are practically indistinguishable from moderate support for the enemy?
Reading it has reminded me of this timeless classic:

The 16 best ways to sabotage your organization's productivity, from a CIA manual published in 1944

The United States distributed a manual to Allies sympathizers to help take down the Axis powers through crippled productivity.

www.businessinsider.com

 

[mrttao]

So i was right, you are trying to set up a completely non-serious, obsessive fence sitting based policy based on waving arms

No, he literally said he wants to supply ukraine, but with oversight.
Everyone who wanted oversight was called a traitor and yelled down until they passed the non oversight aid.

People do not learn from history.

This Mind-Boggling Profile Of Osama Bin Laden Came Out Exactly 20 Years Ago Today

"I am a construction engineer and an agriculturalist. If I had training camps here in Sudan, I couldn't possibly do this job."

www.businessinsider.com

> Osama Bin Ladin
> 1993
> Anti-Soviet warrior puts his army on the road to peace
> Heroic freedom fighter fighting against evil Russia, backed by USA

Yet here you are straw manning him like that. Because you view him as a "traitor" for having the gall to want checks on which regimes the USA props up.

as an aside. lots of insiders have come forth and said USA funded and trained osama in the 80s via CIA as an asset against Russia.
But CIA officially denies this ever happened. But we also know CIA lies

 

[Marduk]

No, he literally said he wants to supply ukraine, but with oversight.
Everyone who wanted oversight was called a traitor and yelled down until they passed the non oversight aid.

But there always was oversight. It's just that the people who whine about the lack of oversight don't want to dig through very boring documents on obscure government sites or think tank sites like this, and probably don't want to complain about insufficient amounts of such documents that they don't read being generated so that they would have more documents to not read, they obviously want to whine about support for Ukraine on shitposting sites, much more interesting, everyone will agree for sure.
The observation of such behavior leads to a conclusion that they want to freeze the speed and scale of said support until unspecified, satisfying to them level of oversight discussion is gone through, which, i conclude, is relevant to the contents of that CIA manual i referred.

People do not learn from history.

This Mind-Boggling Profile Of Osama Bin Laden Came Out Exactly 20 Years Ago Today

"I am a construction engineer and an agriculturalist. If I had training camps here in Sudan, I couldn't possibly do this job."

www.businessinsider.com

> Osama Bin Ladin
> 1993
> Anti-Soviet warrior puts his army on the road to peace
> Heroic freedom fighter fighting against evil Russia, backed by USA

Yet here you are straw manning him like that. Because you view him as a "traitor" for having the gall to want checks on which regimes the USA props up.

He also repeats outright Russian propaganda lines about the causes, motivations and circumstances of the conflict, which really doesn't help put his demands for accountability at the price of timeliness of the support in an innocent light.

as an aside. lots of insiders have come forth and said USA funded and trained osama in the 80s via CIA as an asset against Russia.
But CIA officially denies this ever happened. But we also know CIA lies

Allegations of CIA assistance to Osama bin Laden - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

>insiders
This article lists lots of journos, a British Labour (aka leftist aka untrustworthy) government official, and a consular officer with some quite eyebrow raising views on at least several other matters, so he might also be a leftist.
Meanwhile a lot of more obvious insiders say this is bullshit.
What we do know is that at least some CIA aid to the Afghan militants was routed through Pakistan and it's notoriously rogue intelligence services, so wouldn't be surprised if some did end up with the kinds of groups it wasn't meant to through a more or less complicated chain of transfers, trades, deals or whatever, with or without CIA's knowledge or agreement, creating a sort of half-truth.

 

[Terthna]

So i was right, you are trying to set up a completely non-serious, obsessive fence sitting based policy based on waving arms, parroting the arguments of the side you say is bad, no matter how malicious and inaccurate, and saying that while the bad side should be opposed, on the other hand advocating for extreme stinginess and paranoia in providing resources and financing for that.
So say you aren't shilling for the enemy, but at the same time you are quite clear that very little, if anything, should be done against the enemy and not necessarily in a timely manner, which is something the enemy propaganda is also enthusiastic about recommending.
Do you understand now why your completely unserious even at the face of it policy recommendations are practically indistinguishable from moderate support for the enemy?
Reading it has reminded me of this timeless classic:

The 16 best ways to sabotage your organization's productivity, from a CIA manual published in 1944

The United States distributed a manual to Allies sympathizers to help take down the Axis powers through crippled productivity.

www.businessinsider.com

No, you're not; but I'd have a better shot busting a hole through a brink wall with my face than convincing you otherwise. No matter what I say, you always interpret it in the worst light possible, and then put words in my mouth to make it seem even worse than that. This is why I despise you; because you're intellectually dishonest, hypocritical, and a condescending jackass to boot.

 

[DarthOne]

I mean... I did.

They'd built up for months beforehand and I suspected. And then a bridge went up on day and I knew for certain. And yet certain people posted stuff like this:
View attachment 1815

At that point it would just be sheer denial of reality. Or they weren’t paying attention.

 

[Marduk]

No, you're not; but I'd have a better shot busting a hole through a brink wall with my face than convincing you otherwise. No matter what I say, you always interpret it in the worst light possible, and then put words in my mouth to make it seem even worse than that. This is why I despise you; because you're intellectually dishonest, hypocritical, and a condescending jackass to boot.

Seem you didn't even attempt to convince me, did you just expected your "enlightened fence sitting" to be impressively moderate enough to impress people just by being that?
Some people meanwhile look at the sum of things.
Worst light possible? It is you who described Ukraine's government as "crooks, bigots and murderers", it's you who blamed the West for starting the conflict, it is you who parroted pro-Russian geopolitical theories, and now you act surprised why would i see you in the same light as i see all the other people who say the above things, and we know who such people are.
What, interpreting things in worst possible light is supposed to be something you do to other people, not the other way around?

What words did i put in your mouth? Wait, in fact it's something you did to me, and it took me several posts of pointing it out for you to get it straight which faction of people i think are conspiracy theorists while you were acting like a primadonna and demanding apology for something i didn't even say. So nice behavior for someone accusing others of being "intellectually dishonest, hypocritical, and a condescending jackass to boot."

 

[AmosTrask]

Seem you didn't even attempt to convince me, did you just expected your "enlightened fence sitting" to be impressively moderate enough to impress people just by being that?
Some people meanwhile look at the sum of things.
Worst light possible? It is you who described Ukraine's government as "crooks, bigots and murderers", it's you who blamed the West for starting the conflict, it is you who parroted pro-Russian geopolitical theories, and now you act surprised why would i see you in the same light as i see all the other people who say the above things, and we know who such people are.
What, interpreting things in worst possible light is supposed to be something you do to other people, not the other way around?

What words did i put in your mouth? Wait, in fact it's something you did to me, and it took me several posts of pointing it out for you to get it straight which faction of people i think are conspiracy theorists while you were acting like a primadonna and demanding apology for something i didn't even say. So nice behavior for someone accusing others of being "intellectually dishonest, hypocritical, and a condescending jackass to boot."

Bravissima!

 

[Terthna]

Seem you didn't even attempt to convince me, did you just expected your "enlightened fence sitting" to be impressively moderate enough to impress people just by being that?
Some people meanwhile look at the sum of things.
Worst light possible? It is you who described Ukraine's government as "crooks, bigots and murderers", it's you who blamed the West for starting the conflict, it is you who parroted pro-Russian geopolitical theories, and now you act surprised why would i see you in the same light as i see all the other people who say the above things, and we know who such people are.
What, interpreting things in worst possible light is supposed to be something you do to other people, not the other way around?

Because in spite of all of my misgivings, and my attempts to educate on the context behind this conflict, all I ask for is some sort of accountability; some oversight regarding the money and equipment my country sends to Ukraine. Not even necessarily to ensure that we don't send them too much, but that as little of it as possible is wasted, or diverted by those looking to enrich themselves. But you; you can't abide that sort of caution, not even to the smallest degree. You want America to throw any and all caution to the wind in propping up your own country's interests in the region; which I wouldn't even begrudge you for, if you weren't so thoroughly dishonest about your true intentions. You don't give a crap about Ukraine; you just want to see Russia bleed.

What words did i put in your mouth?

"well yeah the other guys are doing bad things but also we should not do much, if anything about it, because doing things would make us bad too also USA/NATO/West/Israel now too? has to navel gaze about everything happening in the world"

I mean, you literally put it in quotation marks; as if you were quoting something I actually said.

Wait, in fact it's something you did to me, and it took me several posts of pointing it out for you to get it straight which faction of people i think are conspiracy theorists while you were acting like a primadonna and demanding apology for something i didn't even say. So nice behavior for someone accusing others of being "intellectually dishonest, hypocritical, and a condescending jackass to boot."

Which I apologized for; and still do. And yet here you are, doing the same thing to me. Hypocrite.

Bravissima!

You remind me of those fools who cheer whenever some regressive left pundit says what they think is some sort of "gotcha" to someone that isn't part of their cult; when in reality, it's nothing more than complete nonsense. Your applause exposes your ignorance.