United States Minnesota; Man, George Floyd, dies during arrest, cause being a cop kneeling on his neck

[Doomsought]

Our favorite defense attorney has done a video covering the case.



According to the ex-cop on the panel they fucked up by the numbers and did everything exactly the opposite of any training they could have had. Unless they did not have any training at all.

This is strait up murder.

 

[Abhorsen]

Watch the video from this post then.

https://www.the-sietch.com/index.php?threads/minnesota-man-dies-during-arrest-cause-being-a-cop-kneeling-on-his-neck.2668/post-65876

It does explain why the cop would be doing that, what were his mistakes, and how he should be doing it properly.

Um, you watch the video? It specifically says that while you might kneel on a neck accidentally for a few seconds, doing it on purpose is wrong (you are supposed to do it on the shoulder/back). Doing it for 7 minutes is basically inexcusable.

Our favorite defense attorney has done a video covering the case.



According to the ex-cop on the panel they fucked up by the numbers and did everything exactly the opposite of any training they could have had. Unless they did not have any training at all.

This is strait up murder.

Could you give a link to a relevant time? It's 4 hours long.

 

[Marduk]

Um, you watch the video? It specifically says that while you might kneel on a neck accidentally for a few seconds, doing it on purpose is wrong (you are supposed to do it on the shoulder/back). Doing it for 7 minutes is basically inexcusable.

Yes, and if the cop didn't know that detail and didn't adjust his actions based upon this knowledge, that's incompetence. How is calling it incompetence or professional malpractice "excusing it"?

 

[Doomsought]

Um, you watch the video? It specifically says that while you might kneel on a neck accidentally for a few seconds, doing it on purpose is wrong (you are supposed to do it on the shoulder/back). Doing it for 7 minutes is basically inexcusable.

Could you give a link to a relevant time? It's 4 hours long.

Timestamps are in the youtube comments, look for The Aggrolith.

Edit: around 2:05 they start going into police training manuals relevant to the events.

 

[Abhorsen]

Yes, and if the cop didn't know that detail and didn't adjust his actions based upon this knowledge, that's incompetence. How is calling it incompetence or professional malpractice "excusing it"?

Calling heinous disregard for human life incompetence is letting the person off. This isn't just incompetence/cops that don't know better. And that disregard makes this a murder case (though probably only second degree).

 

[Marduk]

Calling heinous disregard for human life incompetence is letting the person off. This isn't just incompetence/cops that don't know better. And that disregard makes this a murder case (though probably only second degree).

Calling it heinous disregard for human life does require the person(s) involved to know that they are killing the guy and proceed regardless. Proving such a claim would be far from trivial, while professional incompetence is just obvious and well documented.

 

[Battlegrinder]

Calling heinous disregard for human life incompetence is letting the person off. This isn't just incompetence/cops that don't know better. And that disregard makes this a murder case (though probably only second degree).

Second degree murder is generally defined as as a malicious intentional killing, but without prior planning. You'd have a really hard time proving murderous intent in this case.

The third type, extreme indifference to human life, would also be a hard sell. You'd have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that this officer knew that what he was doing was very likely kill someone and didn't care. Not that he knew it could maybe happen. Not that he knew the manual said not to do it it. That he specifically knew it was almost certainly lethal and didn't care. That page cites the example of wildly firing at a crowd as a comparable example. Let's say I'm on that Jury, what's your evidence here that this case fits that model?

Note that's "evidence" and not "hyperbolic emotional rhetoric", I don't care what you feel about this case, I care what you can prove.

 

[Abhorsen]

Calling it heinous disregard for human life does require the person(s) involved to know that they are killing the guy and proceed regardless. Proving such a claim would be far from trivial, while professional incompetence is just obvious and well documented.

Second degree murder is generally defined as as a malicious intentional killing, but without prior planning. You'd have a really hard time proving murderous intent in this case.

So I was wrong about 2nd degree, this is is probably third degree if done by anyone not a cop (I have no idea how being a cop enters into this):

(a) Whoever, without intent to effect the death of any person, causes the death of another by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life, is guilty of murder in the third degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 25 years.

I think the depraved mind could be shown here, as the cop kept his knee on the man's neck even when he wasn't resisting.

The third type, extreme indifference to human life, would also be a hard sell. You'd have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that this officer knew that what he was doing was very likely kill someone and didn't care. Not that he knew it could maybe happen. Not that he knew the manual said not to do it it. That he specifically knew it was almost certainly lethal and didn't care. That page cites the example of wildly firing at a crowd as a comparable example. Let's say I'm on that Jury, what's your evidence here that this case fits that model?

As for this, it depends on how these cops were trained. If they were trained like Donut Operator was, then he was told that pressure on a neck is how you end up with dead suspects. That seems like a murder case that can be made.

But going a step beyond legalism, I don't think it likely that this happened because of bare incompetence. The man seemed indifferent to the human life at stake. You have to be worse than incompetent to do that, in my view. I don't know that I could prove it beyond a reasonable doubt with the current evidence though.

 

[Battlegrinder]

So I was wrong about 2nd degree, this is is probably third degree if done by anyone not a cop (I have no idea how being a cop enters into this):

I think the depraved mind could be shown here, as the cop kept his knee on the man's neck even when he wasn't resisting.

That's going to hit the same issue as 2nd degree murder, in that it's going to be very difficult to prove it applies. "Depraved mind" doesn't mean "did something he shouldn't have", it's that same "did something they knew was probably lethal and didn't care" thing that second degree murder charges ran up against.

I do not understand this desire to go with the harshest charge that you can contort the circumstances to fit, rather than a lower charge that you have the greatest chance of winning in court. This is a slam dunk involuntary manslaughter case, why should it be escalated to something that's going to be so much harder to prove?

 

[Marduk]

But going a step beyond legalism, I don't think it likely that this happened because of bare incompetence. The man seemed indifferent to the human life at stake. You have to be worse than incompetent to do that, in my view. I don't know that I could prove it beyond a reasonable doubt with the current evidence though.

You give special attention to this because of the perspective you are looking at it from.
A cop with some experience is bound to begin seeing such a situation as routine, not as extraordinary emergency with human life at stake. If he's poorly trained, his routine will end up sloppy, and he won't realize, because it is his routine and as far as we know no one died from it until now.

 

[Knowledgeispower]

I do not understand this desire to go with the harshest charge that you can contort the circumstances to fit, rather than a lower charge that you have the greatest chance of winning in court. This is a slam dunk involuntary manslaughter case, why should it be escalated to something that's going to be so much harder to prove?

Knowing our nation the answer is inevitable going to be political in nature which is why having non federal prosecutors being elected officials is a terrible idea.

 

[Zachowon]

So many!

Nine minutes seems excessive. He's already cuffed. If it's a worry then use leg restraints. Not sure why police don't use those more often.

Also... We already got threads on ethnonationalism. We should save it for those threads then badgering people on this thread about their lack of response. Could cause a needlessly uncivil derail.

Because leg restraints are not carried on person and are often left to the jails. They are bulky and heavy(ish) and are often not the smoothest. Plus leg restraints arnt supposed to be used if you are making an arrest so they can walk.
Ever try walking in them? It isnt fun.

I'm not particular concerned about them not caring what he was saying, I'd assume that cops are primed to automatically disbelieve any complaints from any suspect, because it's dishonest 99% of the time. Cops probably are trained to not listen to that kind of complaining from suspects.

What's relevant is what he is actually trained to do, and I doubt "stomp on their neck" is SOP for this department.



I doubt it. Oh, certainly no one's going to care about the dead guy in a few months, much like no one cares about him now, but there's a decent chance partisans will still drag up the incident in the midst of ranting about some other thing for ages.

Of course he did it wrong, I am just saying slight pressure to that area usually from the side with on leg against the shoulder/neck the other against the ribs from what I learned.
Also it is probably a state funded LEO training.

I wouldn't consider Donut Operator anywhere near unbiased. And even he says that putting a knee on someone's neck for 7 minutes is how you kill someone.

Just like they forgot about the Houston Drug raid.

Did...did you even watch the video? I'm not saying he is unbiased but be does a lot more research into shootings and police related issues then a lot of social media people do. If the cop dod wrong he calls them out on it.

You mean the back of the human body? I wouldn't have much opposition to it since police usually from how I see pictures have them pinning suspects to the ground with their entire body on their back.

So that's what civilians don't hear about in the police training especially if military police are involved. This officer though screwed up big time when they're caught on camera doing it and the suspect died later.


That's what may happen. That video footage is like the Saigon execution video to change perception.

Generally one wants to keep them down to make sure they cant move. Why he had him there by the neck for so long I cant tell but in times of needing to keep someone restrained for a short moment the neck works.

Calling heinous disregard for human life incompetence is letting the person off. This isn't just incompetence/cops that don't know better. And that disregard makes this a murder case (though probably only second degree).

It isn't though...it is malpractice.
Hell having almost been suffocated by accident as a kid one may not know how weal the neck area is.
Hell i am surprised it took 7 minutes.
That is what you need to look at.


Do we know what he was being arrested for?

 

[Abhorsen]

I do not understand this desire to go with the harshest charge that you can contort the circumstances to fit, rather than a lower charge that you have the greatest chance of winning in court. This is a slam dunk involuntary manslaughter case, why should it be escalated to something that's going to be so much harder to prove?

I do think it might be worth looking at whether they have enough for a 3rd degree murder based on what police are taught. I get it might not be an optimal legal strategy, so I'd understand prosecutors going for something lower. But the indifference to well-being is clearly shown by the video, what is unknown is whether the cop knew that a knee on someones neck might kill someone. I think that is obvious, and that a reasonable person would conclude that. I'm unsure if that matters legally though.

You give special attention to this because of the perspective you are looking at it from.
A cop with some experience is bound to begin seeing such a situation as routine, not as extraordinary emergency with human life at stake. If he's poorly trained, his routine will end up sloppy, and he won't realize, because it is his routine and as far as we know no one died from it until now.

If a cop treats suspects like this routinely, that is appalling. I wouldn't be surprised though. The thing that gets me is that he kept applying pressure for seven minutes. If he had accidently applied a knee in just the wrong way and the guy instantly died, that's one thing. That would be an accident. But here there is clear indifference to the well being of another, which is above and beyond just bad training. That makes a bad person.

It isn't though...it is malpractice.
Hell having almost been suffocated by accident as a kid one may not know how weal the neck area is.
Hell i am surprised it took 7 minutes.
That is what you need to look at.


Do we know what he was being arrested for?

It took like 3 minutes for him to stop responding, the last 4 are apparently him kneeling on a dead man's neck (who clearly isn't resisting on account of being dead).

He was arrested for forgery.

 

[Zachowon]

I do think it might be worth looking at whether they have enough for a 3rd degree murder based on what police are taught. I get it might not be an optimal legal strategy, so I'd understand prosecutors going for something lower. But the indifference to well-being is clearly shown by the video, what is unknown is whether the cop knew that a knee on someones neck might kill someone. I think that is obvious, and that a reasonable person would conclude that. I'm unsure if that matters legally though.

If a cop treats suspects like this routinely, that is appalling. I wouldn't be surprised though. The thing that gets me is that he kept applying pressure for seven minutes. If he had accidently applied a knee in just the wrong way and the guy instantly died, that's one thing. That would be an accident. But here there is clear indifference to the well being of another, which is above and beyond just bad training. That makes a bad person.

It took like 3 minutes for him to stop responding, the last 4 are apparently him kneeling on a dead man's neck (who clearly isn't resisting on account of being dead).

He was arrested for forgery.

For one, have you ever been trying to restrain someone who is saying they arnt resisting yet are even if they dont look it?
Though of course he was trying not to die here but point still stands.

Forgery of what? How much did he resist? Was he violent? Armed?

Also I could bet 1000 dollars that if this had been a white man no one would say a thing

 

[Marduk]

If a cop treats suspects like this routinely, that is appalling. I wouldn't be surprised though. The thing that gets me is that he kept applying pressure for seven minutes. If he had accidently applied a knee in just the wrong way and the guy instantly died, that's one thing. That would be an accident. But here there is clear indifference to the well being of another, which is above and beyond just bad training. That makes a bad person.

Cops don't come with built in suspect's life signs monitors. As others said, if he was applying the knee a few inches lower, nothing would have happened, and it would have been normal procedure then. It is the sort of detail that could be ascribed to incompetence.

 

[Abhorsen]

Forgery of what? How much did he resist? Was he violent? Armed?

Unarmed, not resisting. There are vidoes of the entire thing. But he was on the ground, unarmed, handcuffed, for 7 minutes, being attacked.

Also I could bet 1000 dollars that if this had been a white man no one would say a thing

I would, but I don't know about others. This isn't a racial thing, this is a power thing.

Cops don't come with built in suspect's life sign monitors. As others said, if he was applying the knee few inches lower, nothing would have happened, and it would have been normal procedure then. It is the sort of detail that could be ascribed to incompetence.

Causing harm to a person who isn't resisting is still wrong. Maybe not prosecutable, but that is still abuse. Watch the video from Doomsought, and you can see cops saying that it's their job to listen to the person to make sure not to keep hurting them.

 

[Zachowon]

Unarmed, not resisting. There are vidoes of the entire thing. But he was on the ground, unarmed, handcuffed, for 7 minutes, being attacked.

I would, but I don't know about others. This isn't a racial thing, this is a power thing.

Causing harm to a person who isn't resisting is still wrong. Maybe not prosecutable, but that is still abuse. Watch the video from Doomsought, and you can see cops saying that it's their job to listen to the person to make sure not to keep hurting them.

Are you sure he isnt resisting? Do we have the whole arrest on video?

 

[Abhorsen]

Are you sure he isnt resisting? Do we have the whole arrest on video?

There are multiple videos, covering the arrest through the death. I'm not going to look for them, cause I already watched the Ahmaud Arbery shooting more times than I care to count, and I'll skip the nightmares this time.

 

[Marduk]

Causing harm to a person who isn't resisting is still wrong. Maybe not prosecutable, but that is still abuse. Watch the video from Doomsought, and you can see cops saying that it's their job to listen to the person to make sure not to keep hurting them.

Different cops, trainers and police departments to some degree have different standards and training regimes.
And once we go into the territory of "kinda harm, but not to the degree where it could be prosecutable" that gets more complicated, for one who is to determine if its harm, not harm, or harm but minor enough to be justified in this specific tactical situation? And in terms of limited training time and resources that's "nice if possible, but not a priority". While looking at this situation, seems like their training isn't doing enough work even on the important details.

 

[Zachowon]

There are multiple videos, covering the arrest through the death. I'm not going to look for them, cause I already watched the Ahmaud Arbery shooting more times than I care to count, and I'll skip the nightmares this time.

I can assure you leading up to how he got into that position was him resisting. Again the neck was not on purpose ot kill him as if he had his knee a ittle lower it would not be as bad and he would still be alive.