LGBT and the US Conservative Movement

Morphic Tide

Well-known member
The legal and philosophical framework of America is built on a Biblical Christian foundation. The two are inextricable.
No ideal is inseparable from its origin, otherwise you'd be abandoning this very statement to saying the philosophical framework is built on myths about Magna Carta and Ancient Greek politics. And such is incompatible with the spread of ideas between culture groups, most especially given how the United States basically brute forced its system of government onto Japan with minimal cultural changes.

So it's fine to have a religious motivation to want a law to be passed or repealed, but to pass such a law there should also be a sufficent justification that can be demonstrated to society at large regardless of religion.
Another way of putting it is that the way the Constitution has been upheld by judges in the past has established the precedent that the policy must be sound despite its religious basis, so the current state of affairs with LGB rights very strongly disproves any such narrative. Since them getting their rights has manifestly improved society, even by most of the measures the religious arguments use to demonize them, one must show truly groundbreaking information

I've been here before in other forums. It never actually solves anything. We can argue Aristotelian Hylomorphism or Platonic Realism until we are blue in the face, but the secularists will just stick fingers in their ears, hum real loud, then announce that all of our categories of argument are invalid because they cannot be weighed, measured, or quantified; totally ignorant and uncaring that any argument against metaphysics is also an argument against logic itself or mathematics.
Metaphysics aren't first principals, first principals are another way of putting axioms. Things that are explicitly not logical, because logic must have starting points to inform it. Platonic Realism is a vastly inferior descriptive method to mathematics because it operates only on ideal generalizations. It has poor descriptive value for any real object, and minimal predictive power because of the axiom that there exist ideal forms it concerns itself with. It admits to doing nothing of material value, it is purely a philosophical "game".

Edit: Doing a bit more research, Aristotelian Hylomorphism is directly contradictory to Platonic Realism, being born of answering some fundamental flaws with Platonic Forms with regressing to a concept of constituent matter, which was further modified into the origins of modern chemistry and ultimately the abandonment of metaphysical "Prime Matter", of which the nearest analogue is String Theory, which has the unfalsifiability problem mentioned in later paragraphs where the proponents haven't been able to figure out how to show it could be wrong. /edit

The importance of first principals, in the sense of the original assumptions one's reasoning is based on, is well illustrated by Principia Mathematica, a book which re-derives mathematics from extremely few principals of set theory, ultimately taking over three hundred and fifty pages to conclude that 1+1=2, though it's a rather infamously inefficient proof for deliberately being excessively rigorous, which is one of the reasons why axioms are so common because logic that pure is so time-consuming and counter-intuitive as to not be productive to almost anything, including the few geniuses able to readily engage in it.

What those dismissals tend to center around is that your principals are unfalsifiable. You make arguments that literally can't be proven wrong, which is utterly unacceptable to modern standards of logic because of the influence of Empiricism and how it has so utterly transformed human living conditions. Genuine metaphysics always fails this test, because it is explicitly defined as operations of reality that are unobservable.

Mathematics and logic are not metaphysics, because they make no such claims. They claim only descriptive value, that one can translate phenomena into their lexicon and thereby infer consequences accurately; both have actually determined that they cannot accurately ascertain the whole of reality, because there is no end of detail, in the case of mathematics being partly due to the proof of infinite sets incapable of being mapped to the natural numbers.
 
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LindyAF

Well-known member
Since people brought up Richard Grenell earlier I just thought I'd mention that he now has made a statement on the "T."

He thinks it's very important this person is included and feels welcome in the Republican party, and will campaign against anyone who doesn't think so!

Gina-Roberts-1024.jpg
 

DocSolarisReich

Esoteric Spaceman
Since people brought up Richard Grenell earlier I just thought I'd mention that he now has made a statement on the "T."

He thinks it's very important this person is included and feels welcome in the Republican party, and will campaign against anyone who doesn't think so!

<Snip> "my eyes!" </snip>

I for one welcome our new Han overlords and pray that they have no patience for this madness.
 

ShieldWife

Marchioness
All right. So we have people who are approximately male or female, people who don't quite fit all the criteria but who come close enough that we consider them male or female.

I certainly agree with the idea that people don't get to wake up and say "I'm feeling male today" and force everyone else to play along. But why do we need to prevent people from changing their body from one approximate to the other?
I'm not aware of anybody objecting to a person with a real and objectively observable biological disorder that effects primary or secondary sex characteristics from receiving medical and/or cosmetic treatment for that condition.

On the other hand, removing or permanently altering a person's fully functional sexual organs for a feeling that person has is more questionable. A libertarian case could be made for allowing anybody to do what ever they want with their own bodies and actually, that isn't widely opposed in most first world nations. What people have a bigger objection to is forcing other people to accept biological claims based on feelings. If a man claims he is a woman, should the world be legally forced to accept him as a woman, even to the extent of letting him compete against biological women in sporting events? Most people on the left these days seem to say "yes" to that.
 

King Arts

Well-known member
I for one welcome our new Han overlords and pray that they have no patience for this madness.
The Chinese probably won’t fall into degeneracy for a long while. Unless they end up being Protestant or something like that Christianity Islam and Buddhism are religions that can provide stability Protestantism is the handmaiden and harbinger of liberalism however.
 

ATP

Well-known member
And enthroned a literal streetwalking whore as the embodied 'goddess of reason' in the profaned Cathedral of Strasbourg. But remember liberalism is totally NOT another religion.

And to be clear, Communism, Dialectical Materialism, Marxist-Leninism do come out of the same Enlightenment Revolutionary Fervor that gave us 1649, 1682, 1688, 1776, 1789, 1848, and 1917, which are all of a antinomian, anti-Christ piece.
You forget about cathars which really tried create utopia, and protestants in 1525.But aside of that,i agree.
P.S Pitagoras who tried create perfect society in Krotona city and was killed by locals,was probably first known utopists.
If he succed,we all could live in gulag now.

P.S regarding mans beliving that they are womans - if we accept them,we must accept all Napoleons living now,too.
 

Battlegrinder

Someday we will win, no matter what it takes.
Moderator
Staff Member
Founder
Obozny
To maybe shift away from the specific issues of trans people and get discussion more focused around the ideas and legal reaction, would it be reasonable to consider SRS, crossdressing and other things trans people do to pass as their chosen gender as being broadly similar to piecing, tattoos, and other body modification?

Yes, there's obviously a difference between "I don't feel comfortable in my own skin, I'd rather be a women" and "I'd feel more comfortable with a big nose ring", but it's not that big of a gap, and it seems to fit other circumstances. People are uncomfortable around the sort of badly dude in a dress type of trans person for broadly the same reason as the extreme body modification guy that's got several pounds of metal embedded in his face, and both would normally face fairly similar barriers to getting a job or interacting with regular people. So it seems fair to treat them as generally interchangeable in most test cases, if it's legal to fire/not/hire/not work for/openly dislike/not allow children to do/etc for one, why would doing so for the other category be wrong?
 

DocSolarisReich

Esoteric Spaceman
You forget about cathars which really tried create utopia, and protestants in 1525.But aside of that,i agree.
P.S Pitagoras who tried create perfect society in Krotona city and was killed by locals,was probably first known utopists.
If he succed,we all could live in gulag now.

P.S regarding mans beliving that they are womans - if we accept them,we must accept all Napoleons living now,too.

Big Grin. Glances down at signature block, ayup.

"What's the difference between the Jesuits and the Dominicans?"

"Well the Jesuits were founded to fight the Protestants and the Dominicans to fight the Albigensians."

"Who are the Albigensians?"

"That's the difference."

We can be friends! But I was trying to limit my exegesis to early modernity, which to moderns is ancient history anyway, also, I don't really feel like re-fighting the wars of religion while servants of the Adversary move openly against all of us.
 

Doomsought

Well-known member
"The Constitution promises liberty to all within its reach, a liberty that includes certain specific rights that allow persons, within a lawful realm, to define and express their identity
No.

A person has no right to define their identity. A person's identity is the relationship the rest of the world has with that person, and the only input that a person should have on it is what actions they take to contribute to that relationship.

Just look at identity theft, it is not any aspect of your self actualization that is stolen, it is the relationship that merchants, government agencies and banks have with you that is stolen.
 

ShieldWife

Marchioness
One thing that causes trouble in our society is this obsession we have with prohibiting discrimination. Discrimination is fine, we should all be allowed to do it, we actually all do it in our personal lives on a regular basis. Even leftists like discrimination if it favors groups they like or hurts group that they dislike.

Let people do as they like to their own bodies, but then let everybody else choose to associate (or not) with those people. Free choice all around.
 

DocSolarisReich

Esoteric Spaceman
No.

A person has no right to define their identity. A person's identity is the relationship the rest of the world has with that person, and the only input that a person should have on it is what actions they take to contribute to that relationship.

Just look at identity theft, it is not any aspect of your self actualization that is stolen, it is the relationship that merchants, government agencies and banks have with you that is stolen.

Don't tell me, tell the Nine Lords in Black.

One thing that causes trouble in our society is this obsession we have with prohibiting discrimination. Discrimination is fine, we should all be allowed to do it, we actually all do it in our personal lives on a regular basis. Even leftists like discrimination if it favors groups they like or hurts group that they dislike.

Let people do as they like to their own bodies, but then let everybody else choose to associate (or not) with those people. Free choice all around.

Discrimination means that things are not actually equal and somethings are good and some things are bad. Therefore Discrimination is evil because Equality is good.
 

ATP

Well-known member
Big Grin. Glances down at signature block, ayup.

"What's the difference between the Jesuits and the Dominicans?"

"Well the Jesuits were founded to fight the Protestants and the Dominicans to fight the Albigensians."

"Who are the Albigensians?"

"That's the difference."

We can be friends! But I was trying to limit my exegesis to early modernity, which to moderns is ancient history anyway, also, I don't really feel like re-fighting the wars of religion while servants of the Adversary move openly against all of us.

Indeed.I read about book wroten by russian orthodox Władimir Sołowjow, where in Antichrist times last catholics,orthodox and protestants which still belive unite to fight him.And lost./God win in the end/
Short story about Antichrist,i think.I never thought,that i could live in that kind of times.

P.S Every time i think that situation is bad,i say to myself - what if Pitagoras/cathars win long ago ? and i feel better.
 

The Immortal Watch Dog

Well-known member
Hetman


Proof that a least some conservatives get it.


She makes a good point. The people @Abhorsen cite having to clean up the community from its degenerates also had to relentlessly oppose the homosexuality is a mental illness stigma and then they go and get lumped in with literally mentally ill/neurological defective people and its deeply enraged a lot of the old school gay dudes I know.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
To maybe shift away from the specific issues of trans people and get discussion more focused around the ideas and legal reaction, would it be reasonable to consider SRS, crossdressing and other things trans people do to pass as their chosen gender as being broadly similar to piecing, tattoos, and other body modification?
No, they are not even close to the same thing.

Someone with a tat or piercing isn't trying to lie about what reproductive equipment they have, nor are they trying to force people to use 'preferred pronouns' or be sued. They also do not demand other people or the tax payer foot the dime for it, via medical insurance or taxes if they try to transition in the military.

As well, you don't have the issue of destroying women's sports, people using it to justify going into the opposite restroom from their biological sex, or of just being able to 'identify' as tattoo'd/pierced.

I get what you were rhetorically trying to do.

But the fact is T issues are very unique in how they are being dealt with, and what Ts are demanding, and the legal mess surrounding them.
 

DocSolarisReich

Esoteric Spaceman
Indeed.I read about book wroten by russian orthodox Władimir Sołowjow, where in Antichrist times last catholics,orthodox and protestants which still belive unite to fight him.And lost./God win in the end/
Short story about Antichrist,i think.I never thought,that i could live in that kind of times.

P.S Every time i think that situation is bad,i say to myself - what if Pitagoras/cathars win long ago ? and i feel better.

Let there be a new Holy League in these latter days. Lord, Have Mercy!
 

Doomsought

Well-known member
Yes, there's obviously a difference between "I don't feel comfortable in my own skin, I'd rather be a women" and "I'd feel more comfortable with a big nose ring", but it's not that big of a gap,
Actually there is a huge gap. You are allowing them to get their foundational fallacy into your thinking: to divorce the purpose from the existence.

The purpose of a nose ring is to make you look pretty/cool/punk, it communicates your subculture and by proxy your promiscuity.
The purpose of transsexual plastic surgery is to make you appear to be a member of the opposite sex, it is fundamentally deceptive because it does not accomplish changing this fundamental biological function.
 

The Immortal Watch Dog

Well-known member
Hetman
Since people brought up Richard Grenell earlier I just thought I'd mention that he now has made a statement on the "T."

He thinks it's very important this person is included and feels welcome in the Republican party, and will campaign against anyone who doesn't think so!

Gina-Roberts-1024.jpg

Grenell can go lapse on his Ziagen then.

Edit- Damn I didn't crack an aids joke until page 50. Must be going soft
 

LindyAF

Well-known member
People are uncomfortable around the sort of badly dude in a dress type of trans person for broadly the same reason as the extreme body modification guy that's got several pounds of metal embedded in his face, and both would normally face fairly similar barriers to getting a job or interacting with regular people. So it seems fair to treat them as generally interchangeable in most test cases, if it's legal to fire/not/hire/not work for/openly dislike/not allow children to do/etc for one, why would doing so for the other category be wrong?

I think I more or less agree with some of this. I don't think this guy should be working with kids either.

I think there are some additional factors here though, specifically that there's an aspect of deception here as well (even if the deception is almost always extremely easy to see through) and also that by Blanchard's typology there's at least one category of trans for which there's a paraphilic component (something many of them also admit to), which makes it also akin to wearing paraphilia-related clothes in public.
 

strunkenwhite

Well-known member
Let people do as they like to their own bodies, but then let everybody else choose to associate (or not) with those people. Free choice all around.
In their personal capacity, sure; in their professional capacity, what about when Zuckerberg is doing the discriminating?
Someone with a tat or piercing isn't trying to lie about what reproductive equipment they have
I don't get why you are treating "alter" as "lie".
it is fundamentally deceptive because it does not accomplish changing this fundamental biological function.
So it's just a matter of insufficient science/technology for you? If they could make the change more complete you'd be fine with it?
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
I don't get why you are treating "alter" as "lie".
Because it is not just an alteration that is the issue; it is the 'identify as' part that comes with it, and the demands that Ts make on the rest of us related to their chosen 'identity'.

That is where the lie comes into it, and why it is a problem.

It's one thing for them to lie about their reproductive equipment, it's another to try to punish people for not going along with it, and most trans do BOTH.
 

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