Leftist Child Grooming

[Bacle]

Now I'm pretty sure that most LGBT people don't agree with the disgusting degeneracy we've been seeing as of late. But since none of you seem to be speaking up against it, it does not send a good message.

You do realize that Abhorsen is bi, like me, and we've both come down hard on the fucking lunacy that has taken over the LGBT movement, mostly because of the Ts.

You want to deal with the lunacy in the LGBT+ bullshit going on these days, then do not make enemies of the non-hetero's who are also appalled by shit like kids getting dragged to drag shows.

And if you want to see what history was like for LGBTs for a while, why don't you go look up how they used to lobodimize us, or what they did to Alan Turing, despite his help winning WW2 by cracking the Enigma Machine.

The truth is you and people like you just want reasons to attack, shame, and disparage anyone who isn't hetero, ignoring when we call out lunacy done in our name, treating us like we all approve of this shit, and ignoring/memory holing the the abuse they've suffered in the past.

 

[DarthOne]

You do realize that Abhorsen is bi, like me, and we've both come down hard on the fucking lunacy that has taken over the LGBT movement, mostly because of the Ts.

You want to deal with the lunacy in the LGBT+ bullshit going on these days, then do not make enemies of the non-hetero's who are also appalled by shit like kids getting dragged to drag shows.

And if you want to see what history was like for LGBTs for a while, why don't you go look up how they used to lobodimize us, or what they did to Alan Turing, despite his help winning WW2 by cracking the Enigma Machine.

The truth is you and people like you just want reasons to attack, shame, and disparage anyone who isn't hetero, ignoring when we call out lunacy done in our name, treating us like we all approve of this shit, and ignoring/memory holing the the abuse they've suffered in the past.

I'm quite aware of Mr Turning and those like him who suffered horrible mistreatment. And while I know that LGBT users on this site are disgusted and appalled by what's been going on, I was speaking more in terms of a mass outcry or pushpack from the sane parts of the LGBT movement. Something I realize I should have been more clear on and apologize for not doing so.

 

[DarthOne]

Case in point. Elementary school is way too early to be introducing kids to this stuff and so is middle school for the most part.

 

[Abhorsen]

That's *seriously* toned down compared to modern ones. If you edited the signs and said its conservatives and libertarians marching for free speech, it would be entirely plausible.
Note that all the signs are directly related to LGBT, good luck finding something else.

It quickly got crazier, and that's not toned down. By 1970 standards, that's a lot crazier than what happens now. There were gays kissing, which was violating the law.

And yes, during the LGBT march, they campaigned for LGBT stuff, but they also would frequently work for other campaigns en-masse, and be coopted by them. The book Conduct Unbecoming goes into this more in one of the early chapters, but basically the gay population served as a general wellspring of activists for whatever liberal cause there was.

The anti-slavery movement and ending the slave trade is one I can think of which lasts to this day.

No, that movement ended a while ago, in the 1860s.

Yes and no. As someone who's an aspiring Orthodox Christian, I can't say I'm the biggest fan of the LBGT rights movement overall.

HOWEVER, if it had stopped at say, LGBT relationships being legalized (I don't consider it 'marriage') in a way that didn't force churches to participate, that didn't give LGBT's any special privileges like the degeneracy we see now, I would have been fine with it. In short, as long as you lot were willing to act and dress like civilized humans, I could have cared less about what LGBT people did.

That is where it is now, to be clear. There is no force on churches currently, and although people are trying to put force on individuals to participate in weddings (also wrong) that's going to SCOTUS soon.

All I wanted was the government getting out of our lives, and equal recognition of straight and gay relationships. I got that, now I'm happy.

I do think the whole Pride Month and parades were something of a mistake. Mostly for the same reason I sort of think Black History month is a mistake.

It wasn't a mistake (at least the Parades weren't). It was highly successful at what it had to do: show the world that gays existed when it was normal to pretend they didn't, and thus ignore the horrors they went through. It was a highly successful tactic at solving one of the problems. Now it's just performative wokeness with all the use of a St Patrick's Day Parade, but at the time it really mattered.

Now I'm pretty sure that most LGBT people don't agree with the disgusting degeneracy we've been seeing as of late. But since none of you seem to be speaking up against it, it does not send a good message.

As an aside, on the subject of LGBT people getting tax breaks for getting 'married', I'd have to look more into why those tax breaks existed in the first place. (As I assume it was so it would be easier for married couples to raise children.)

Um, you don't seem to be paying attention to people who speak out against the LGBT craziness (which to be fair, wouldn't necessarily be in your wheelhouse), but they do exist, and are prominent. Scott Pressler is literally signing new republicans up by the thousands, trying to get out the vote. Arielle Scarcella is both very gay and very sex positive, while also still calling out this bullshit and pulling other gays away. The entire WalkAway movement. Buck Angel, Blaire White, and not least Dave Rubin. And that's just off the top of my head. There are absolutely LGBTs calling this shit out.

The thing is, getting to a mass movement takes time, when the instinctive response of every human is to defend their institution right or wrong. So there is progress being made, it's just going to take time. The anti-woke pressure in the community is slowly getting more and more powerful, and it's current biggest impact is getting LGBTs just to... not contribute to woke stuff, when previously would. Give it time, it's less than a decade since we had to be on the opposite side and this wasn't even an issue.

I disagree. I think it came from elements who were with the LGBT community even at the beginning. One only has to cast an eye toward Alfred Kinsey and that one fellow whose name escapes me at the moment. His last name was Money or something similar, did trangender experimentation on a pair of twins or something?

There would have been crazy people who were LGBT, but there would have been no mass movement. There would be no point, no shared history, no culture etc. Just a different check box on a dating app.

The whole reason there was a LGBT community was repression. You get a bunch of people, exile them from society, and threaten them with draconian punishments, and voila, you get a community pretty quick. And that community had problems, but no access to solutions because of the exile from society, so ended up with some fucked up ideals.

 

[Marduk]

It quickly got crazier, and that's not toned down. By 1970 standards, that's a lot crazier than what happens now. There were gays kissing, which was violating the law.

Of course that's relative to what standard we are talking about, and the very fact that standards changed over such a short timeframe should be something that should get them to shut up, rather than push the standards to "borderline illegal" in terms of public indecency yet again.

And yes, during the LGBT march, they campaigned for LGBT stuff, but they also would frequently work for other campaigns en-masse, and be coopted by them. The book Conduct Unbecoming goes into this more in one of the early chapters, but basically the gay population served as a general wellspring of activists for whatever liberal cause there was.

Yes, and how is that different from all the other civil rights movements at the time?
The black activists were most openly romancing with the hammer and sickle red flag style of politics, and that's the other big one that always comes to mind.
The connection between feminism and the L was always pretty obvious and unchallenged until the T controversy.
There are some differences based on different demographics of such movements if nothing else, but the connections that were there in a bit more incidental way have gotten much closer and closer over time, and even had an ideology written around making that happen, intersectionality, to a point where now activist groups not taking part in the "universal left liberal cause" camp and following the party line on at least all the major other divisions are pretty much marginalized, see TERFs, who outside of their T rebellion tend to be hardline leftists in other topics.

 

[lloyd007]

Other "civil rights" causes at least on the surface being apolitical too, certainly. Openly, in your face left wing, that's new.
Photos from first pride parade:

The first gay pride parades | CNN

New York City was the site of the nation’s first gay pride parade on June 28, 1970. A few other cities also held marches that year.

edition.cnn.com

That's *seriously* toned down compared to modern ones. If you edited the signs and said its conservatives and libertarians marching for free speech, it would be entirely plausible.
Note that all the signs are directly related to LGBT, good luck finding something else.

OTOH, back in the 1970's it wasn't LGBTQ+ it was LGBP with NAMBLA openly marching alongside notable pols like Feinstein.

As we've seen in the last few years more than a few in the political movement have wanted to openly reincorporate 'P' into the movement.

 

[DarthOne]

The creator of ‘What is a Woman?’ has unsurprisingly come under attack.

 

[DarthOne]

 

[LordsFire]

The truth is you and people like you just want reasons to attack, shame, and disparage anyone who isn't hetero,

See, this is the same 'I'm a telepath!' kind of thinking that typifies leftist dogma.

No, Christians (and many other conservatives) genuinely believe that homosexuality is immoral, and that it is harmful to the people practicing it. It should be seen as unacceptable behavior, just like alcoholism, drug addiction, or being prone to fits of rage.

Christianity teaches trying to use prayer and persuasion to convince people to give up immoral practices. Various Christian and 'christian' organizations can rightly be criticized for using immoral methods to try to 'stamp out' homosexuality, rather than what's actually laid out in the New Testament, but recognizing that some people have treated homosexuals very poorly does not equate to meaning homosexuality is morally correct.

The reason that, again and again, conservatives link homosexuality to pedophilia and trans madness, besides the long historic connection between pedophilia and homosexuality, is because it keeps coming back to the root question of 'what theological/philosophical foundation is morality built upon?'

And the same ideology that rejects the idea that homosexuality is immoral, throws out the foundation of every other moral law in western society. Which inevitably leads to 'children are sexual beings' and 'gender is a spectrum' and similar nonsense, because once you accept the philosophical assumption 'morality is whatever I want it to be,' there is nothing keeping people from going to these places.

And yes, yes, 'non-aggression principle' and 'what's moral is if nobody is harmed!'

The problem with that, is that 'morality is whatever I want it to be' also takes upon each individual the authority to determine what harm is. Exactly as is now being done.

So, you can try to argue that pedophilia and other extreme forms of degeneracy were not inevitable results of the 'gay rights' movement all you want, but conservatives predicted this was exactly what would happen, and they weren't just proven right, they were proven right within just a handful of years of the Obergefell ruling. On top of the long history of pedophilia's association with the 'gay rights' movement.

 

[Bacle]

See, this is the same 'I'm a telepath!' kind of thinking that typifies leftist dogma.

No, Christians (and many other conservatives) genuinely believe that homosexuality is immoral, and that it is harmful to the people practicing it. It should be seen as unacceptable behavior, just like alcoholism, drug addiction, or being prone to fits of rage.

Christianity teaches trying to use prayer and persuasion to convince people to give up immoral practices. Various Christian and 'christian' organizations can rightly be criticized for using immoral methods to try to 'stamp out' homosexuality, rather than what's actually laid out in the New Testament, but recognizing that some people have treated homosexuals very poorly does not equate to meaning homosexuality is morally correct.

The reason that, again and again, conservatives link homosexuality to pedophilia and trans madness, besides the long historic connection between pedophilia and homosexuality, is because it keeps coming back to the root question of 'what theological/philosophical foundation is morality built upon?'

And the same ideology that rejects the idea that homosexuality is immoral, throws out the foundation of every other moral law in western society. Which inevitably leads to 'children are sexual beings' and 'gender is a spectrum' and similar nonsense, because once you accept the philosophical assumption 'morality is whatever I want it to be,' there is nothing keeping people from going to these places.

And yes, yes, 'non-aggression principle' and 'what's moral is if nobody is harmed!'

The problem with that, is that 'morality is whatever I want it to be' also takes upon each individual the authority to determine what harm is. Exactly as is now being done.

So, you can try to argue that pedophilia and other extreme forms of degeneracy were not inevitable results of the 'gay rights' movement all you want, but conservatives predicted this was exactly what would happen, and they weren't just proven right, they were proven right within just a handful of years of the Obergefell ruling. On top of the long history of pedophilia's association with the 'gay rights' movement.

And here you go, trying to play the same sort of bullshit game that led to gays being lobotomized, while 'good Christians' cheered it on.

Well two can play that game.

Because the same sorts of 'good Christians' who you think society was built around engaged in things like 'witch trials', condoned slavery, and spread the Bible via the sword in a lot of places throughout history. Christianity does not have final moral authority over the world, no more than Shintoism, Islam, or Buddhism does; the divine is more than any one religion, and no religion has such a moral highground it can claim to be 'the truth', instead of 'a truth'.

Oh, and the amount of pedo priests that have been outed over the years means Christians and religious groups in general need to STFU, get off your high horses, and clean your own house first, before lecturing the sane LGBs who have had our movement hijacked by the lunatics and were being oppressed by your sort not 50 years ago.

You want to introduce some friction on the slippery slope, then don't alienate the people best positioned to help you do that.

 

[DarthOne]

And here you go, trying to play the same sort of bullshit game that led to gays being lobotomized, while 'good Christians' cheered it on.

Well two can play that game.

Because the same sorts of 'good Christians' who you think society was built around engaged in things like 'witch trials', condoned slavery, and spread the Bible via the sword in a lot of places throughout history. Christianity does not have final moral authority over the world, no more than Shintoism, Islam, or Buddhism does; the divine is more than any one religion, and no religion has such a moral highground it can claim to be 'the truth', instead of 'a truth'.

Oh, and the amount of pedo priests that have been outed over the years means Christians and religious groups in general need to STFU, get off your high horses, and clean your own house first, before lecturing the sane LGBs who have had our movement hijacked by the lunatics and were being oppressed by your sort not 50 years ago.

You want to introduce some friction on the slippery slope, then don't alienate the people best positioned to help you do that.

Aspiring Orthodox Christian here. As far as I am aware we don't have the pedo problem. Or if it is, its so vanishingly rare that I haven't been able to find anything about it.

Also, on the subject of Eastern Orthodoxy, as well as Christianity and witches in general:

https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/13928/have-witches-ever-been-executed-by-the-eastern-orthodox-church

Most early Eastern theologians didn't believe in witches (technically, neither did Western theologians, as is evidenced by Canon Episcopi), but most common folk did. Without getting into the confounded history of witch-burning, it is generally held that theologians prior to the 10th century did not believe in witches. The 9th century Canon Episcopi that I mentioned is interpreted by modern historians to be a renunciation of the existence of witches, not of witchcraft itself (the bible sufficiently denounces witchcraft). For various reasons, medieval Western society changed their tune and began burning witches.

According to Stephen Hayes (the link is now dead but clicking here will take you to an online archive),

It is perhaps significant that the persecution of witches began in the West after the Great Schism of 1054. In parts of the Orthodox East, at least, witch hunts such as those experienced in other parts of Europe were unknown (Stewart 1991:38). The Orthodox Church is strongly critical of sorcerers (among whom it includes palmists, fortune tellers and astrologers), but has not generally seen the remedy in accusations, trials and secular penalties, but rather in confession and repentance, and exorcism if necessary (Stewart 1991:212f).

I have tried to show that the process of accusation, trial, sentencing and execution of alleged witches is not a typical Christian reaction to witchcraft. It was practically unknown in Christendom for the first ten centuries. It then gradually appeared in certain parts of the Christian world, but not in others. It lasted for about 600 years, though the last 200 years of this period were the worst, after which it suddenly disappeared. Such behaviour was fairly common in pre-Christian societies, but was altered when those societies became Christianised.

The article goes on to elaborate on Orthodoxy and its response to witches (hint: it didn't burn them). The source continually referenced by Hayes in the above quote is:

Stewart, Charles. 1991. Demons and the devil. Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press.

I highly doubt that the Eastern Orthodox Church ever executed witches (and I have not found any sources indicating that they did). It is far more likely that they tried to lead witches to repentance.

 

[Rocinante]

I think people would be surprised how many LGB people are against the LGBT political movement.

But they're silenced pretty effectively. They don't get retweets and shares at the same rate that people who follow the narrative do, and plenty of them who I have talked to are scared of speaking out because the movement is very toxic, and it's a small community, and they're afraid of being ousted, essentially. Which is cowardice, to be clear, but I get it.

My best friends are a Trump voting lesbian couple. I've met a lot of LGBT people. A lot of them are exactly what the stereotypes depict, but enough are different that it's worth pointing out, because until you go get that anecdotal experience, you'd probably never know it. The LGBT political community acts as if they don't exist, and the conservative right is happy to go along with it.

 

[LordsFire]

And here you go, trying to play the same sort of bullshit game that led to gays being lobotomized, while 'good Christians' cheered it on.

Well two can play that game.

Because the same sorts of 'good Christians' who you think society was built around engaged in things like 'witch trials', condoned slavery, and spread the Bible via the sword in a lot of places throughout history. Christianity does not have final moral authority over the world, no more than Shintoism, Islam, or Buddhism does; the divine is more than any one religion, and no religion has such a moral highground it can claim to be 'the truth', instead of 'a truth'.

Oh, and the amount of pedo priests that have been outed over the years means Christians and religious groups in general need to STFU, get off your high horses, and clean your own house first, before lecturing the sane LGBs who have had our movement hijacked by the lunatics and were being oppressed by your sort not 50 years ago.

You want to introduce some friction on the slippery slope, then don't alienate the people best positioned to help you do that.

See, there's a difference here.

Christians have a holy book, called the Bible. In the Bible the rules for Christian conduct, what we should and should not do, are laid out.

Witch trials are not condoned, so I can accurately say these people were violating God's law when they did that.

Conversion by the sword is not just not condoned, it is condemned, so I can say those people were violating God's law when they did that.

When a pedophile, whether in a position of power or influence within the church, a regular congregation member, or outside of the church altogether, predates upon a child, I can say 'this is wrong, this violates God's laws.'

The standard is clear, many people fail to live up to it, but there is a standard.



The ideology of human-derived morality has no such foundation to stand upon.

Also, the difference between 'a shameful secret' in the (very corrupt) catholic church, and occassionally in some others as well, that causes humiliation and rightful public outcry against such things, compared to 'we are going to sexualize your children en masse in schools, take them to strip clubs, have them dress up in drag and do lap dances, and call you evil if you dare try to stop us' should be pretty damned obvious.

 

[Marduk]

And here you go, trying to play the same sort of bullshit game that led to gays being lobotomized, while 'good Christians' cheered it on.

You are trying to push a pretty typical false binary of "my way or this crazy shit".
Anglosphere's historical position on this matter is somewhat more extreme than the rest of the west's at the same time, so other intermediate positions did in fact exist and function more or less. In a large part of Europe since around 30's the law was mostly "don't bother with these weirdos at all" more or less, including places that would be considered incredibly right wing and conservative by modern standards, like Poland. Of course they weren't exactly loved by the general public, but there was none of the "imprison them/lobotomize them" stuff, as far as the state was concerned they were just some weird citizens with a fairly shameful hobby that is beneath the government to bother interfering or interacting with unless absolutely necessary. All things considered, a pretty reasonable attitude even for today, nevermind the times involved.

 

[Captain X]

 

[Bacle]

Also, the difference between 'a shameful secret' in the (very corrupt) catholic church, and occassionally in some others as well, that causes humiliation and rightful public outcry against such things, compared to 'we are going to sexualize your children en masse in schools, take them to strip clubs, have them dress up in drag and do lap dances, and call you evil if you dare try to stop us' should be pretty damned obvious.

There is a difference, but you act like all non-hetero folks are in support of the 'kiddie drag show shit', when in fact most are against it and do what they can to out the abusers, pedos, and groomers.

The only reason this shit is getting so out of hand is because the LGBT community knows damn well that a lot of the Right wants to shove us back in the closet, at best, if they get the chance and power to do it. Thus, the lunatics pushing this stuff were the 'lesser evil' for a while, and now the have momentum on their side.

Edit: By 'lesser evil', I mean people had to chose between hiding abuse they suffered at the hands of pedos, or risking lobodomy if they reported it, and admitted to be gay/non-hetero to the police.

 

[PsihoKekec]

Interesting venue in continuous attempts to legalize the child rape

 

[LordsFire]

There is a difference, but you act like all non-hetero folks are in support of the 'kiddie drag show shit', when in fact most are against it and do what they can to out the abusers, pedos, and groomers.

The only reason this shit is getting so out of hand is because the LGBT community knows damn well that a lot of the Right wants to shove us back in the closet, at best, if they get the chance and power to do it. Thus, the lunatics pushing this stuff were the 'lesser evil' for a while, and now the have momentum on their side.

That you consider widespread child-grooming and pedophilia a better alternative to being 'pushed back into the closet,' very directly puts the lie to the idea that 'most are against it.'

You're just proving my point, even though you clearly do not understand it.

 

[Bacle]

That you consider widespread child-grooming and pedophilia a better alternative to being 'pushed back into the closet,' very directly puts the lie to the idea that 'most are against it.'

You're just proving my point, even though you clearly do not understand it.

And you are being disingenuous and twisting my words.

The reason the non-hetero community has had problems getting rid of these types, beyond the whole 'Epstein Island and many in power are pedos issue', is because the scum know they won't be welcomed almost anywhere, and feel they have an easier time hiding in other 'outcasts'.

Also, it's worth pointing out that the T section of the LGBs have damn near hijacked the whole movement to push their lies, and it seems like it's the Ts doing most of the worst shit these days

You actually want to deal with the groomers and pedos that parasite onto the LGB groups, then don't make LGB groups feel like trying to work with the Right is helping people that actively want to destroy all the civil rights that LGBs now have.

Stop trying, or even talking about trying, to overturn Obergfell and stop giving LGBs a reason to fear the Right; that will make dealing with the pedos and groomers even easier, at least for those not already in power. Work with them to help out things like Epstein's client list, and the abusers in Hollywood. You want to hit the people pushing the worst of it, you need to stop generally condemning the entire LGB movement as 'pedo and groomer sympathizers/helpers', and start focusing on those we know are pedos and groomers who just hide behind fame and power to protect themselves.

 

[Abhorsen]

OTOH, back in the 1970's it wasn't LGBTQ+ it was LGBP with NAMBLA openly marching alongside notable pols like Feinstein.

As we've seen in the last few years more than a few in the political movement have wanted to openly reincorporate 'P' into the movement.

The P's are always trying to latch on, and every time in the past they have eventually (usually quite quickly) been thrown back off.

As to @Bacle, there's no excuse for gays consorting with pedos, just like there's no excuse for anyone else doing the same.

As to @LordsFire The issue is that no, there's nothing special about god that stops degeneracy. There are tons of pedos that worship god, there are tons who don't. That socalled absolute truth you think comes from the bible quite simply isn't one. The points you raise about how one can mess around with the concept of the NAP can be apply a thousand more times to the bible or any other holy book. The NAP is short and simple, and is a lot harder to pervert the meaning of than the bible, to be honest.


The root cause of this is that LGBT 'culture' was a sick one, because it was formed by society exiling them. That's not how a healthy group of people are raised! And once they got accepted, it rapidly became less sick, starting with long term relationships, monogamy, raising kids, etc. Everyone was normalizing, and when they normalized, they left the culture. So now all that's left in the culture is those that loved it. And that's a problem, as they tend to be more fucked up than the norm. And so as the need for the culture died, and people left, bad actors took it over, inheriting a lot of unearned political power.

They absolutely want the repression. They want to be able to bitch and moan, but more importantly, they hat that people integrated with society. The amount of hate LGBTs get from the community for integrating successfully is large. From complaining about 'passing privilege' for Ts who transition well, to calling Bis who end up with the opposite sex straight, to other shit, it's fucked up. And so it pushes more LGBTs out of the community (a win) but further cedes power to the crazies (a loss). Like, Pride is important because I know there are still people who would rather us go and fucking disappear, and more importantly, there are still gays who are taught that they are awful for being gay. But it's less important every year, and more and more I dislike the people there.