Late Cold War Cancelled Projects

PsihoKekec

Swashbuckling Accountant
Soviets always had plenty of prototypes, as Kharkov and Nizhy Tagil bureaus constantly sought to upend each other (and then Leningrad comes with T-80 :p). There was also a project (I forget the number) where they put a 152 mm main gun turret on the T-80 chassis, but it was decided in the end that while feasible, it's not worth the effort.
 

Tiamat

I've seen the future...
Soviets always had plenty of prototypes, as Kharkov and Nizhy Tagil bureaus constantly sought to upend each other (and then Leningrad comes with T-80 :p). There was also a project (I forget the number) where they put a 152 mm main gun turret on the T-80 chassis, but it was decided in the end that while feasible, it's not worth the effort.

So, was the 152mm gun on a T80 chassis supposed to act as an assault gun? Because 152mm is right up there around the same size as self propelled artillery.

I suspect they ran into the same problems I head they had when putting a 140mm cannon on the M1 chassis: Balancing and weight issues with the main gun especially if in a turret, size of the ammunition and stowage, etc. I’ll post a pic I have of the M1 with the 140mm (or at least I believe it is) when I get home.
 

PsihoKekec

Swashbuckling Accountant
It was the artillery piece and it was done as feasability study for development of a next generation smoothbore tank gun in that caliber.
 

Aaron Fox

Well-known member
The AH-56 'Chyenne', killed by a combination of the stupid 'twin-engine only' requirement (the AH-1 only got by because it shared a lot of its parts with the Hueys), the US Air Force being itself, and a nasty crash that killed its test crew. Most of the problems were either solved or had solutions that were being implemented when the call came in to kill the project.

The Sgt. York is another one, oddly enough I have a thread about that, when you actually look into it, the Sgt. York was everything that was needed. All it really needed is changing the chassis to the M60, make sure that the barrels used weren't worn out, use 5k PSI hydraulics instead of the 3k ones, and do some sensitivity and bug fixing on the fire control and search radar. That's literally it. Tests that were made basically turned any helicopter not behind a terrain feature like a hill or mountain (the basic gist of it was 'draw an uninterrupted line (i.e. no hills, mountains, or other solid objects) between the York and the target and it will be shot to pieces').

Then there is the Bradley ADATS program, everything was ready to go and Congress... canceled it.

Then there was the USN ETC weapons program that produced several weapons (with the US Army and Marines showing up later)... including a 60mm revolving autocannon system for CIWS defense.
 

Tiamat

I've seen the future...
Then there was the USN ETC weapons program that produced several weapons (with the US Army and Marines showing up later)... including a 60mm revolving autocannon system for CIWS defense.

I haven't heard about the 60mm revolving autocannon...sounds like it would have quite the mass and recoil. Or is this more like the 60mm hypervelocity autocannon the Israelis developed?

063981b4dd2d7d458c105dae5427e8f2.jpg


60mm HVMS on an M113 chassis, Israeli modification.
 

Aaron Fox

Well-known member
I haven't heard about the 60mm revolving autocannon...sounds like it would have quite the mass and recoil. Or is this more like the 60mm hypervelocity autocannon the Israelis developed?

063981b4dd2d7d458c105dae5427e8f2.jpg


60mm HVMS on an M113 chassis, Israeli modification.
It was a CIWS mount:
 

Tiamat

I've seen the future...
Well, since this might fit this thread, here's a rather interesting Soviet design.... "Object 490".

EDIT: I actually mentioned "Object 490" earlier, but this appears to be the actual Object 490...from what I know.


tumblr_puvfraIhJe1w636mro1_1280.jpg


Four sets of tracks, cameras throughout the vehicle for steering and aiming of the weapons. The weapons package itself was insane: A 152mm tank gun, a pack of twin 7.62mm machine guns on each side of the main gun turret that could elevate independently of the main gun, and a secondary turret on the rear sporting a 30mm automatic grenade launcher. Also it had an active protection system referred to as "Shtandart".


This was supposed to be a prototype for a future Soviet MBT, but it looks to me more like a rather well-armed assault gun/tank destroyer. And now I see another vehicle I need to stat for my WW3 fic.... :devilish:


There was another vehicle, "Object 490A" but it looks different than this one, more like a "standard" MBT, but with a casemate type turret with the crew seated in the hull.

tumblr_pxumw8BH211w636mro1_1280.jpg
 

wellis

Active member
Got all the bugs worked out of it and... the cold war ended with a side order of reunification. From the tests, it's surprisingly effective and reliable after the propellant block problems were solved.
Not really. The caliber was way too small and would've handled poorly againdt the ceramic body armor in use nowadays:
All of these guns had a swiss watch mechanism. The LMG mechanism was basically the same as the normal gun... but with the addition of a triple revolving firing chamber. Why? Because the caseless ammo had a cook off limit of only 210 rounds and a very long cool down, and adding a bigger barrel to duct away heat (the normal LMG solution to this) wouldn't help due to the rotary action being a completely different disconnected piece of metal, so they needed more chambers to keep it viable. But this mechanism was never actually built.

Both versions would have been vulnerable to catastrophic jams from the caseless ammo breaking up in the action as occurred in US Army trials, and no doubt, occurred in German trials, records of which never seem to have been released. Probably because they'd just show people were ignoring problems.

Nothing could solve this with the ammunition concept the Germans were using. The G11 ammo required that the booster above the primer (something a normal cartridge have at all) shatter the propellant block to allow a uniform burn. This also launched the bullet into the barrel ahead of the main burn to improve the sealing problem all caseless ammo has.

If the booster shattered the block but didn't ignite it the gun would jam in a manner that the user could not clear. You had to strip down and rebuild the gun to get all the debris out and ram the bullet out of the bore. If the sealing went wrong, which from time to time it did, the gun itself would be wrecked by a gas jet burning off part of the breech.

Since many failure modes resulted from damage to the ammunition before loading, the German idea that the user would carry most of his ammo in plastic stripper clips and reload just three magazines in the field was especially dubious.

The basic erognomics of loading a magazine into and firing the G11 were fine, but about everything else was a bad idea.

With hindsight, it was an even worse idea because we know now people would have quickly introduced body armor that totally negated the G11 in the 1990s, even with the 3 round burst function, and at that point the tiny bullet would have left it with basically no path forward. Ceramic body armor works by eroding the projectile, and a tiny projectile is just way easier to erode then a bigger longer one. The G11 was predicated on penetrating body armor based on a titanium or steel plate which stopped the projectile in a different plastic manner.

More velocity won't make up for the short penetrator length, even if you could somehow squeeze more velocity out of the cartridge.

But you wouldn't be able to do that without an even smaller bullet because the projectile is already solid. You can't pack more powder into a solid form factor.... and the propellant was already based on HMX high explosive! So you increase the amount of HMX in that propellant and real quickly it goes from being a high cookoff temperature propellant into being a high explosive that simply shatters the entire action and kills the user.


Reality is the Germans took a long twisted path to reach the G11, and seem to have been pretty desperate to adapting anything at the point the Cold War ended and abruptly solved the problem. The G3 was not an appealing weapon to carry into the 1990s. The British adapted the terrible L85 in a similar situation, the old SLRs they had were reaching the physically worn out point, beyond it really, and it became no longer a choice about building new rifles.
It wasn't real at the time, a single 4.7mm round would have penetrated any of the body armor on the table in the 1980s easily.

The threat Soviet body armor was seen as a thin titanium plate and these bullets would have gone right through it.


It's just something people bring up in hindsight and worth addressing. The burst fire was entirely about achieving fire superiority, while the overall G11 design and ammo design was as some have mentioned, designed with an eye towards being cheap and using as few strategic resources as possible.

As in the action was complex as hell, but it wasn't actually hard to make in the first place. And the ammo not needing brass or certain other materials was a strategic issue, the German triumph in both world wars was how big and robust it's chemical industry was after all, caseless ammo leaned on that in principle. Course, Germany also lost both world wars....
 

Aaron Fox

Well-known member
Not really. The caliber was way too small and would've handled poorly againdt the ceramic body armor in use nowadays:
From what I can tell, modern ceramic body armor is basically -in GURPS terms- durable ablative armor. Have a few shots and it's done for. However, it should be noted that the research wasn't for nothing as one of the LSAT variants is a caseless system built upon the G11.

Now, something from the Vietnam era:
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If you think that the current deluge of exoskeletons is a recent phenomenon, think again. This was undertaken when McNammera was pushing his high-tech, high-training, high-firepower approach to warfare. If anything, he is probably one of the people who were pushing for such a system for all sorts of possibilities, especially logistical.
 

wellis

Active member
However, it should be noted that the research wasn't for nothing as one of the LSAT variants is a caseless system built upon the G11.
That was abandoned due to how toxic and dangerous the chemicals the Germans used were found to be:
TFB: The caseless ammunition effort from LSAT was inherited essentially from Dynamit Nobel, right?

KP: Yes, although since the 1980s, their ammunition had since become impractical to produce in the 2000s, for cost and environmental reasons. Essentially, they were using a solvent based process where you mix all the ingredients together wet, and then let them dry out. That’s not something we prefer to do now because it produces a lot of toxic gases.
TFB: So you had to do a lot of work yourself to make a feasible caseless round?

KP: Yes, there was a combination of reverse-engineering the ammunition that we had, and also sort of analyzing the data that we had to figure out what was missing. But we were able to successfully recreate the exact chemical configuration that Dynamit Nobel delivered for ACR. It ended up costing too much to make!
 

Doomsought

Well-known member
The proposed upgrades to the Iowa-Class definitely rank up there. Two I recall was fin stabilized and rocket boost assisted shells, which would've increased the range of the main cannons from 20 miles to something like 140 or so.
The problem with IOWA refits is always that the electronics they installed did not have enough vibration hardening to handle the main guns firing when they first modernized it. You need to prioritize rebuilding all the electronics rooms to handle the main guns being used before you can add more toys.
 

History Learner

Well-known member
The problem with IOWA refits is always that the electronics they installed did not have enough vibration hardening to handle the main guns firing when they first modernized it. You need to prioritize rebuilding all the electronics rooms to handle the main guns being used before you can add more toys.

My understanding with the shells upgrade with the fin stabilization basically didn't affect the issue, but I would assume the rocket boost did.
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
Congress not liking to give the military money?

(Looks at the ginormous US defense budget)

…If you say so.
As ginormous as it is, it's vastly less than Cold War era budgets, and even by the late Cold War they were getting distinctly cold feet about granting the military more or less carte blanche for every crazy project it wanted to try. To be fair, military R&D really betrayed that trust by throwing countless taxpayer dollars into blatantly ludicrous projects that were obvious bullshit.

The Hiller Flying Platform, for example, was so utterly moronic that everyone involved in the project should have been investigated as potential Soviet saboteurs.
 

Jormungandr

The Midgard Wyrm
Founder
As ginormous as it is, it's vastly less than Cold War era budgets, and even by the late Cold War they were getting distinctly cold feet about granting the military more or less carte blanche for every crazy project it wanted to try. To be fair, military R&D really betrayed that trust by throwing countless taxpayer dollars into blatantly ludicrous projects that were obvious bullshit.

The Hiller Flying Platform, for example, was so utterly moronic that everyone involved in the project should have been investigated as potential Soviet saboteurs.
Was that the one man floating hoverdisk experiment? I think Westwood actually based Yuri Prime's chair on that, and since they were focused on giving the Allies, Soviets, and Yuri stuff mostly based on the most batshit Cold War-era stuff...


Yeah. :ROFLMAO:
 

Aaron Fox

Well-known member
As ginormous as it is, it's vastly less than Cold War era budgets, and even by the late Cold War they were getting distinctly cold feet about granting the military more or less carte blanche for every crazy project it wanted to try. To be fair, military R&D really betrayed that trust by throwing countless taxpayer dollars into blatantly ludicrous projects that were obvious bullshit.

The Hiller Flying Platform, for example, was so utterly moronic that everyone involved in the project should have been investigated as potential Soviet saboteurs.
Here's the thing: the Cold War had a lot of 'throwing darts at the wall' on the US side (and many of them were just feasibility studies like the Hiller), and the 1960s still had the US Army and Navy still suffering from the USAF's 'nuclear monopoly' era (they lost quite a bit of institutional knowledge during the post-WW2 period, partially thanks to that, which led to the 'Revolt of the Admirals' and the 'Pentomic Divisions' with the former being a success and the latter complete failure).

The USSR, on the other hand, had the exact opposite problem, where its leadership (until Kruschev dragged them kicking and screaming until some of his crazy corn projects chewed his ass and the resolution of the Cuban Missile Crisis tanked his standing) was almost braindead conservative. ATGMs, ICBMs, and autoloading tanks? Largely because Kruschev kept hammering that things had changed into the skulls of the military leadership.
Was that the one man floating hoverdisk experiment? I think Westwood actually based Yuri Prime's chair on that, and since they were focused on giving the Allies, Soviets, and Yuri stuff mostly based on the most batshit Cold War-era stuff...


Yeah. :ROFLMAO:
It's not that crazy when you think of what they were supposed to do. Basically, these things were an evolution of the interwar years 'Air Cav' concept, but instead of using gyrocopters, they would use these things.

Funnily enough, the various versions of the 'air car' in the original Johnny Quest series are how they should be used. To give infantry access to transportation in extremely rough/impassable terrain, the ability for regular patrols in said terrain, that sort of thing.
 
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