Late Cold War Cancelled Projects

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
Sotnik
This seems like a worthwhile topic to discuss. When the Cold War ended... And even before then... There were a lot of projects cancelled all around the world. Now this might've been due to the end of the Cold War, or got canned earlier or just was a Cold War era project that got cancelled around that time.

Some are well known like the Super Tomcat or the A-12 Avenger Stealth Aircraft.

But some are still largely overlooked. Like Brazil's 3rd generation main battle tank, the Engesa EE-T1 Osorio or the B90 Nuclear Depth Charge... :cool:

Got any favorites you'd like to shed light on or otherwise discuss?
 

Tiamat

I've seen the future...
Woops, forgot to add my favorite "could have been", the RAH-66 Comanche...though one of the latest proposed helo designs being studied by the US Army bear a rather odd resemblance. :unsure:
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
Sotnik
STRV 2000, a proposed MBT with a 140mm cannon, 40mm bofors autocannon and two 7.62mm machine guns... that’s a lot of BOOM.

What madness is this? A two person tank... no one in the turret...

strv_2000_koncept_o3-40-web.jpg


I saw these designs before... in the 1991 Ralph Peters novel The War in 2020.
 
Last edited:

Tiamat

I've seen the future...
What madness is this? A two person tank... no one in the turret...

strv_2000_koncept_o3-40-web.jpg


I saw these designs before... in the 1991 Ralph Peters novel The War in 2020.

You very much have my interest...where is this from and what is it? It make me think of another take on the RDF tank concept, but bigger and with an extra gun. But to answer your question it looks like another experiment with "casemate" or unmanned turret type designs where the gunner and commander sit lower in the turret and the main gun and coaxial sit overhead and are fed by an autoloader or chute feed depending on the gun type. This actually is a little similar to what I had in mind for the fictional "M-20 Ridgeway" tank in my WW3 fic.

Here is the M1 TTB experimental vehicle, with the casemate type turret I had in mind for the M-20.

r1cu284lamg01.jpg



And here is the cancelled AAI RDF airborne light tank concept with the 75mm Ares autocannon and eight Stinger antiaircraft missiles.


10051-4f1763f2c86ae7e4194c17f92c87d04d.jpg
 
Last edited:

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
Sotnik
You very much have my interest...where is this from and what is it?

Oops quoted the RAH-66 Comanche post as opposed to the Strv-2000 one... that is fixed now.

It's the O140/40 Variant of the Strv2000 with only a two man crew and no one in the casemate style turret.

From here... Projekt "Stridsvagn 2000"

It's in Swedish but the Google Translate is pretty legible to read... and the pictures even more so. :p

It make me think of another take on the RDF tank concept, but bigger and with an extra gun. But to answer your question it looks like another experiment with "casemate" or unmanned turret type designs where the gunner and commander sit lower in the turret and the main gun and coaxial sit overhead and are fed by an autoloader or chute feed depending on the gun type. This actually is a little similar to what I had in mind for the fictional "M-20 Ridgeway" tank in my WW3 fic.

Here is the M1 TTB experimental vehicle, with the casemate type turret I had in mind for the M-20.

r1cu284lamg01.jpg



And here is the cancelled AAI RDF airborne light tank concept with the 75mm Ares autocannon and eight Stinger antiaircraft missiles.


10051-4f1763f2c86ae7e4194c17f92c87d04d.jpg

Yeah it seems like the 'casemate' style unmanned turret was a future concept for a while, which is why I mentioned the MilSF novel by Ralph Peters. Those were the default tanks that appeared in that series. Pretty neat to see that there was an M1 analogue to it. It wasn't just the Swedes being out there then or perhaps potentially ahead of their time.
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
Sotnik
Yugoslavian Novi Avion, light one engined fighter, similar to Rafale (only smaller).

Any details on that?

Main reason I made this thread was because I recently learned about how Brazil actually developed and produced their own 3rd Generation Main Battle Tank (the aforementioned Osorio). So hearing about other "minor" countries and their developments that were largely overlooked always intrigues me.
 

Tiamat

I've seen the future...
Any details on that?

Main reason I made this thread was because I recently learned about how Brazil actually developed and produced their own 3rd Generation Main Battle Tank (the aforementioned Osorio). So hearing about other "minor" countries and their developments that were largely overlooked always intrigues me.

I may have the Osório getting built and sold by the Brazilians, not just for themselves but a few other third world clients in my fic, now that I’m thinking about it.

I think I’m gonna add the Yak141 to the Soviet equipment list as well.
 

PsihoKekec

Swashbuckling Accountant
Any details on that?
Wikipedia article

The gist is that Yugoslavia tried to balance between the East and West, while being as independent as possible. In military terms it meant producing as much material in country as possible, including aircraft. So after trainer (Galeb/Super Galeb) and ground attack aircraft (Orao), the decision was made to start a fighter project, as the MiG-21 fleet was getting long in the tooth. Yugoslav arnament industry cooperated with French a lot, they were building Gazelle under licence and the French helped with development of BVP M-80 an M-79 Osa. So the negotiations were done with the French who agreed for full technological transfer for the key elements of the airplane, for unknown sum. All components were supposed to be made in Yugoslavia, including electronics and engine (something Chinese still struggle with).
While the first prototype would have probably flown on imported engine, the first engineers were already being educated in France ob production of critical components before the country fell apart, for example experts from Ravne steelworks were being instructed on high temperature alloys for the engine.

Becoming a fighter pilot was my childhood dream and reading about the new fighter plane the country was supposed to build only fanned the flames. Though looking back I find it curious how little this project was talked about, for a long time I thought the project was but a mirage, before I found out how far the Ravne steelworks preparations went.
 

gral

Well-known member
I may have the Osório getting built and sold by the Brazilians, not just for themselves but a few other third world clients in my fic, now that I’m thinking about it.

You'd need for the original contract with Saudi Arabia to go forward for that - Brazil had no money to buy the tank, the deal was that, out of every 10 tanks Engesa would build, 9 would go for export, 1 for the Brazilian Army. When Saudi Arabia decided to reward Uncle Sam from saving them from Saddam, and with the post-1991 glut of ex-Soviet tanks available for (almost) nothing, the Brazilian Army couldn't afford to pay for the entire program, and Engesa had spent its entire funds on developing the tank(as well as some old-fashioned mismanagement of the company), going broke in... 1993, IIRC. They were working again on wheeled AFVs, the EE-17 Sucuri(EE-17 Sucuri – Wikipédia, a enciclopédia livre), which evolved into the EE-18 Sucuri II(EE-18 Sucuri Tank Destroyer | Military-Today.com), but the Osório had used too much of the resources(development and marketing included) of the company, and they didn't pan out.

To be fair, I don't think the Osório, full of high-tech imported equipment was the best fit for the Brazilian Army of the late-80's and early-90's. Bernardini's MB-3 Tamoyo(MB-3 Tamoyo Prototype Main Battle Tank | Military-Today.com), the final result of giving Trenbolone to a M41 Walker Bulldog, would have been, IMO better, being a development of something that was very familiar to them(Brazil had then some 500 M41s in service, being the largest operator of the model at the time, IIRC).

Brazil also was building an APC prototype based on the(modernized) M41 suspension and drive train, the Charrua:

It would have been a great successor to the M59s Brazil used back then(I think the first M113s entered service in Brazil in 1989 only).
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
Sotnik
Well without a potential Persian Gulf War with a US bailout (plus being 3 or 4 years off) that contract could theoretically go forward.

Plus in the hypothetical ongoing Cold War there would be no peace dividend. No glut of surplus secondhand tanks on the market and major producers like the USA and France might not be selling M1's and AMX's like candy since they'll need them for their own uses.

So we could see the Osorios filling in some of the gaps and there'd be a theoretical basis for it if the timeline author desires it.
 

Tiamat

I've seen the future...
You'd need for the original contract with Saudi Arabia to go forward for that - Brazil had no money to buy the tank, the deal was that, out of every 10 tanks Engesa would build, 9 would go for export, 1 for the Brazilian Army. When Saudi Arabia decided to reward Uncle Sam from saving them from Saddam, and with the post-1991 glut of ex-Soviet tanks available for (almost) nothing, the Brazilian Army couldn't afford to pay for the entire program, and Engesa had spent its entire funds on developing the tank(as well as some old-fashioned mismanagement of the company), going broke in... 1993, IIRC. They were working again on wheeled AFVs, the EE-17 Sucuri(EE-17 Sucuri – Wikipédia, a enciclopédia livre), which evolved into the EE-18 Sucuri II(EE-18 Sucuri Tank Destroyer | Military-Today.com), but the Osório had used too much of the resources(development and marketing included) of the company, and they didn't pan out.

To be fair, I don't think the Osório, full of high-tech imported equipment was the best fit for the Brazilian Army of the late-80's and early-90's. Bernardini's MB-3 Tamoyo(MB-3 Tamoyo Prototype Main Battle Tank | Military-Today.com), the final result of giving Trenbolone to a M41 Walker Bulldog, would have been, IMO better, being a development of something that was very familiar to them(Brazil had then some 500 M41s in service, being the largest operator of the model at the time, IIRC).

Brazil also was building an APC prototype based on the(modernized) M41 suspension and drive train, the Charrua:

It would have been a great successor to the M59s Brazil used back then(I think the first M113s entered service in Brazil in 1989 only).


In fact the Saudis is what I had in mind. It's 1987, the Saudis in my story are spooked all to hell with the world situation and the deteriorating relations with the Soviets and COMBLOC nations, and want better tanks NOW. Problem is, the Americans aren't as keen on selling the Saudis brand new M1 tanks right now, as their main focus is on equipping the US Army and National Guard with all the M1's they can (there's still a fair amount of M60's in the National Guard inventory), plus they already are sending another batch of M1's to the Australians. They would rather sell them modernization packages for their M60 tanks. The Saudis however, still want new tanks...and thus the deal goes through.

It all finally goes hot worldwide in August 1988.
 

gral

Well-known member
In fact the Saudis is what I had in mind. It's 1987, the Saudis in my story are spooked all to hell with the world situation and the deteriorating relations with the Soviets and COMBLOC nations, and want better tanks NOW. Problem is, the Americans aren't as keen on selling the Saudis brand new M1 tanks right now, as their main focus is on equipping the US Army and National Guard with all the M1's they can (there's still a fair amount of M60's in the National Guard inventory), plus they already are sending another batch of M1's to the Australians. They would rather sell them modernization packages for their M60 tanks. The Saudis however, still want new tanks...and thus the deal goes through.

Hmm. First prototype was ready in late 1984, was sent to Saudi Arabia in July 85 for tests, which found some fixable problems. The Al-Fahd Program tests were done in July 1987, with the Osório, Challenger 1, OF-40 and M1. If the US isn't sending the M1, it also means the US political pressure on the Saudis not to buy the Osório that delayed the contract signing until the Gulf War won't happen here. So, the contract could be signed on late 87, early 88(probably still on 87, given what you said about the Saudis). I guess first deliveries would happen on late 88 if everything goes well, some time on 1989 if not.
 

Tiamat

I've seen the future...
Hmm. First prototype was ready in late 1984, was sent to Saudi Arabia in July 85 for tests, which found some fixable problems. The Al-Fahd Program tests were done in July 1987, with the Osório, Challenger 1, OF-40 and M1. If the US isn't sending the M1, it also means the US political pressure on the Saudis not to buy the Osório that delayed the contract signing until the Gulf War won't happen here. So, the contract could be signed on late 87, early 88(probably still on 87, given what you said about the Saudis). I guess first deliveries would happen on late 88 if everything goes well, some time on 1989 if not.

I would say the Saudis just manage to get their shipments of the Osorios a few weeks before the war breaks out.

But as for other vehicles....would you believe the Brits had considered going "back to the future" with a tank destroyer in 1984? Of course it never got built, but here you are:

33340642_1779674795433104_1437431635921338368_n-1.png


 

gral

Well-known member
I would say the Saudis just manage to get their shipments of the Osorios a few weeks before the war breaks out.

But as for other vehicles....would you believe the Brits had considered going "back to the future" with a tank destroyer in 1984? Of course it never got built, but here you are:

33340642_1779674795433104_1437431635921338368_n-1.png



The Saudis wanted to build the Osório on Saudi Arabia. I really don't think they would be able to do that before the war begins. BTW, a correction: I said the OF-40 was one of the Osório's competitors on the Al-Fahd tests - it wasn't; the one who was was the other European tank built for export, the AMX-40.

As for this TD, I'd say that was a case of idle heads finding something to do. EDIT: Ah, it was a course project. That explains it.
 

Tiamat

I've seen the future...
The Saudis wanted to build the Osório on Saudi Arabia. I really don't think they would be able to do that before the war begins. BTW, a correction: I said the OF-40 was one of the Osório's competitors on the Al-Fahd tests - it wasn't; the one who was was the other European tank built for export, the AMX-40.

As for this TD, I'd say that was a case of idle heads finding something to do. EDIT: Ah, it was a course project. That explains it.

Huh, interesting, the Saudis would need to set up a full production line to build those tanks if they were going that route. It seems it would have been easier to buy them off the Brazilians. As for the AMX-40...I have a rather modified version of that also getting built, but it's for domestic French use as they realize the AMX-30 just is not up to snuff with the current tank designs, so they modified the AMX-40 with some input from the Germans and are building that to bulk out their armies.

As for the "Chimera"....I've wondered if they were ever halfway serious of going back to using "traditional" tank destroyers? If so, maybe would have made more sense to either purchase or license-build STRV 103's.
 

gral

Well-known member
Huh, interesting, the Saudis would need to set up a full production line to build those tanks if they were going that route. It seems it would have been easier to buy them off the Brazilians. As for the AMX-40...I have a rather modified version of that also getting built, but it's for domestic French use as they realize the AMX-30 just is not up to snuff with the current tank designs, so they modified the AMX-40 with some input from the Germans and are building that to bulk out their armies.

As for the "Chimera"....I've wondered if they were ever halfway serious of going back to using "traditional" tank destroyers? If so, maybe would have made more sense to either purchase or license-build STRV 103's.

My guess is that the first 100 units or so(of a total of 318; that was the number stated in the OTL contract) would be built in Brazil, the rest in Saudi Arabia. Whether the Saudis would build more of them after this contract is unknown, but probably yes: they have some 400-450 M1s in OTL.

The AMX-40 is, in capabilities, a souped-up AMX-30B2; it'd be at best a stop-gap. OTOH, that's exactly what you envision for them to be in your story.

As for the Chimaera, I think that, if the British decided to have TDs once more, they would at the very least, take a long look at it.
 

Tiamat

I've seen the future...
So....not sure what this is exactly, but apparently another tank design the Soviets were fooling with in the 1980s. One fellow says it's Object 490 "Buntar", another says it's "Poplar" or "Topol"...


j15pdhczozr11.jpg



Or according to this source (and take it with a grain of salt) this was the Object 490A Buntar...

400


 
Last edited:

Users who are viewing this thread

Top