Breaking News January 6th Stop the Steal Rally & Capitol Breaching/Storming

S'task

Renegade Philosopher
Administrator
Staff Member
Founder
Yeah but I don’t think they’ve done it kicking and screaming quite this hard before.

…would the American Civil War count?
Yes.... ish.

The American Civil War was a conflict between two establishments: the Plantation Barons of the South vs the New Industrialists of the North. In that conflict the Middle Class, who tends to decide these conflicts in America, broke heavily for the New Industrialists. Which shouldn't come as a surprise as the economic system of the South basically created no Middle Class. Yeoman farmers, which were ostensibly part of the Jeffersonian ideal, were simply not economically competitive with massive slave plantations and so had mostly died out in the South, while making up huge swaths of the North and West, along with the urban middle class that was rapidly growing due to industrialization. Thing was for a long while the Plantation Barons were the dominate elite establishment, and the international trade focused merchant elites of the north went along with them. It was the rise of the Industrialists that saw things shift, and the Plantation elites absolutely through a massive fit concerning their displacement electorally.
 

DarthOne

☦️
Speaking of which, what are your thoughts on what’s going on @S’task ? Do you think the right-wing populists will win this one? Is the USA going to have to have a Civil War/Civil Conflict?
 

S'task

Renegade Philosopher
Administrator
Staff Member
Founder
The Right Wing Populist movement as it stands now will not win. While I understand the sympathize with their distaste for the older Conservative movement and more Establishment Republicans they have a tendencies to paint with overbroad brushes that make it impossible for them to build alliances and actually effect real change.

Plus they seem to have a RIDICULOUS blind spot on the electability of Trump in a way that ignores on the ground reality, plus they tend to place to much emphasis on Trump and relitigating the 2020 election.

You see it constantly here, the populist right slanders the older Movement Conservatives by accusing them of "failing to conserve anything" or of "being the liberals of 20 years ago" and such. Yes, I know, you're already thinking "well, they're right", but that's the exact thing, they're wrong. They tend to focus and fixate on the areas where the Conservative movement LOST, not on the areas they won. This is in large part because the media tend to focus on those areas heavily, both to demoralize the right but also to not highlight the left's weakness.

You want examples? I'll give two big ones. The first is the homeschool and private school movement. People really need to understand that before the late 1970s and early 1980s the very IDEA of homeschooling was ILLEGAL across most of the country and that people would even WANT to do it or be allowed was a strange and weird THING. FURTHER, private schools were either for Rich People or Catholics. The idea of private schools for random non-Catholic middle class folks was ALIEN. School Choice wasn't even a thing.

Now? Homeschooling is legal across the entire country and school choice is a strong enough movement that it's slowly chipping away as the public school monopoly on state funding. In the 1960s and 70s the very idea would have been laughable. No, not enough people on the right take advantage of these things, but the simple fact they CAN and it is a thing they can DO represents a MASSIVE setback to the Progressive indoctrination program of children and if you go look in the right places you will see Progressives CONSTANTLY bemoaning that Homeschooling and Private Schooling are THINGS... and there's next to nothing they have been able to do to turn the tide on back on these topics.

Another major victory is of course on Gun Rights. As recent at the 1980s the "collective interpretation" of the 2nd Amendment was taught as LEGAL FACT. Heck, that was the main interpretation textbooks were going with even the YEAR HELLER WAS DECIDED (I know, I literally took a Constitutional Law class going over Constitutional Rights and Interpretation that year and the teacher wisely decided to wait on discussing the 2nd Amendment until the Heller decision came forth... to say Heller and the textbook were... in tension with each other would be an understatement). But bear in mind that's been more than a legal thing, that's also been a cultural thing. For all we bemoan how routine gun control demands are, how they keep trying to regulate around the 2nd Amendment something most people don't understand is since the 1990s there has been no successful attempt at a new Gun Control law... even when the Dems were in majority and held the Presidency. The issue has become that toxic and that one sided that the question these days isn't "will we keep AR-15s" it's become "can we roll back gun control from pre-1990s". I seriously don't think people understand how powerful the gun control lobby was in the 1990s and earlier and one of the reasons the left is so bitter about this was that they VERY NEARLY WON on this issue... they THOUGHT THEY HAD IT and then... everything started rolling back.

And who won that? It wasn't the modern populist right, no, it was the old Conservative movement allying with the various gun rights groups working together towards a common goal.

Heck, people also don't understand how far the Conservative movement has come when it comes to the COURTS either. The Right managed to break the progressive grip on the courts in the 1980s and since that times it's been a slow and systemic march BACK through them, but for most populist rightists the Courts have always been slightly dominated by the Republicans, as most Millennials don't remember a time when the Chief Justice wasn't a Republican appointee. What they don't get is that again, that was a MASSIVE fight and it was super establishment and very neo-conny HW Bush who appointed CLARENCE THOMAS to the Supreme Court. Stop and REALLY THINK about that for a movement. Thomas is the ideological leader of the Conservative wing of the Court, he's a firebrand Originalist and Conservative... but does the Establishment get credit for putting him there? No... because he's been there so long most Populist take his appointment for GRANTED.

Until the Populist Right learns to give credit where it is due and is willing to actually work WITH the older groups and not constantly paint with a broad brush they will have a lot of trouble building coalitions on the right that will be able to actually win and govern.

Likewise they need to take a long, LONG look at Trump and understand that he has MAJOR electoral issues. Yes, he had the election stolen from him and what happened was AT MINIMUM sleezy as fuck and at worst actively criminal. But here's the thing, he's ALSO highly toxic to many moderates, he actively turns people off from working with him, and he's been effectively demonized by the media to the extent no other candidate has. And this isn't just the standard media demonization either, Trump is a person whom people have STRONG reactions to REGARDLESS, often those reactions are negative. And while he is very popular with those whom like him, when you look at an electoral college map, those who like him are not in the right places TO WIN.

And that's a major issue. Yes, Trump should be president right now, yes it's unfair to him, but draw me a map that he can plausibly win in 2024. You seriously think he can flip all the states he needs to from 2020? I don't see it, not with the way subsequent elections have gone. And so long as the Populist Right build their brand and identity around Trump, as long as he defines them, they have no chance of actually winning and governing successfully.

Yes, the beaucratic state needs to be brought to heel. I'm personally in favor of firing everyone above a GS-10 in the government and basically burning it all down and prohibiting anyone currently serving in the government who has not actively become a whistleblower from continuing to serve in the government. But tell me, how many in the Populist movement even know what GS-10 EVEN MEANS?

Again, they lack the basic knowledge to govern... they lack the ability to make alliances because they constantly demean and degrade those who have been fighting for the same things they have. They ignore the hard fights those coming before them have won while focusing exclusively on the fights they've lost, all while not actually offering real strategies to win those lost fights that were lost just going "you should have done more/better/harder!" or offering solutions that would literally require a fucking time machine.
 

Cherico

Well-known member
Yeah but I don’t think they’ve done it kicking and screaming quite this hard before.

…would the American Civil War count?

That was one of them, when the southern planter class was replaced by the industrial northern class, the last switch out was when the managerial class replaced said industrial class during the great depression.

Said class didn't like it but handled their replacement with a lot more dignity and class then the managerial class has.
 

strunkenwhite

Well-known member
I'm posting this here just to contrast what happened to these guards vs. the response to what has been done to the J6 political prisoners, like the person who had a finger broken and was left untreated for weeks.
I think you forgot to add the thing you're referring to.
 

The Immortal Watch Dog

Well-known member
Hetman
Again, they lack the basic knowledge to govern... they lack the ability to make alliances because they constantly demean and degrade those who have been fighting for the same things they have. They ignore the hard fights those coming before them have won while focusing exclusively on the fights they've lost, all while not actually offering real strategies to win those lost fights that were lost just going "you should have done more/better/harder!" or offering solutions that would literally require a fucking time machine.

I think you fundamentally misunderstand the pooulist right if you think they're interested in presenting solutions.

As far as they're concerned the Republic has been dead since the Civil War. What they're interested in is amassing enough power to do as much vandalism to the system as possible to make the idea of relying on centralized power so unappealing people begin identifying more with their neighborhoods and counties and states than with their own country.

They're interested in old school, castigation and what they consider revenge for the harm done to Americans by the global homogeneous movement backed political class.

in short most people on the ground in the populist right are hard-core accelerationists who think neighborhood watches and vigilantism is the ideal form of law enforcement.

They're not purely an American movement. They're very South American in their desires for vengeance and extremely minarchistic in their desires for the balance of power in the US.

Most of them don't even see laws as anything other than the means by which power is exerted by any given movement in power against those outside the movement at any given point in time.

And yes part of that is the result of old conservatives willing to compromise at all, an ignorance of history on the new rights part and a robust hatred and mistrust of any process that's slow and requires meeting people they're convinced are demonic in the biblical sense at the table.

You dont compromise with evil incarnate S'task. The "i hate the antichrist" thing isnt just a meme. Most of them genuinely believe it.

and that's without getting into the monarchy bros and the anarcho-primitivists who glorify The Uninomber and make up a good 5% of right leaning anything anywhere on earth.
 
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DarthOne

☦️
I think you fundamentally misunderstand the pooulist right if you think they're interested in presenting solutions.

As far as they're concerned the Republic has been dead since the Civil War. What they're interested in is amassing enough power to do as much vandalism to the system as possible to make the idea of relying on centralized power so unappealing people begin identifying more with their neighborhoods and counties and states than with their own country.

They're interested in old school, castigation and what they consider revenge for the harm done to Americans by the global homogeneous movement backed political class.

in short most people on the ground in the populist right are hard-core accelerationists who think neighborhood watches and vigilantism is the ideal form of law enforcement.

They're not an American movement. They're very South American in their desires for vengeance and extremely minarchistic in their desires for the balance of power in the US.


Most of them don't even see laws as anything other than the means by which power is exerted by any given movement in power against those outside the movement at any given point in time.

And yes part of that is the result of old conservatives willing to compromise at all, an ignorance of history on the new rights part and a robust hatred and mistrust of any process that's slow and requires meeting people they're convinced are demonic in the biblical sense at the table.

You dont compromise with evil incarnate S'task. The "i hate the antichrist" thing isnt just a meme. Most of them genuinely believe it.

and that's without getting into the monarchy bros and the anarcho-primitivists who glorify The Uninomber and make up a good 5% of right leaning anything anywhere on earth.
Hardly the case. At least for most of the Alt Right I’ve interacted with.
 

The Immortal Watch Dog

Well-known member
Hetman
Hardly the case. At least for most of the Alt Right I’ve interacted with.
The alt right isn't the new right nor is it the populist Maga guys

Those are totally different bag of cats, who interact with the other groups because some of their goals overlap, but I certainly wouldn't consider them one in the same. Alt right guys are like Fried. He has a very different outlook than the populist "fuck it all" bros and the ones interested in protectionism.

TBH the US could use some Carribaen style protectionism. I agree with them there.
 
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The Immortal Watch Dog

Well-known member
Hetman
…it would probably help if the damn MSM didn’t keep muddying the waters with what means what. Then again that’s intentional on their part.

To be fair I doubt the MSM has any idea what any of these guys are. They don't even recognize the spectrum on the left, ain't gonna see it on the right.

Plus they're GAE propagandists. Globohomo can't allow for nuance. It fundamentally defies their desired out come for the world.
 

The Immortal Watch Dog

Well-known member
Hetman
Sounds just as likely, if not more so.

Tldr: people are pissed, at a level they haven't been since the 90s which was dangerous levels of pissed and where I agree with @S'task That being ignorant of history and the legal victories of actual conservatives is dangerous.

But when this many people are enraged, policy stops being about solutions and starts being about vandalism.

Edit- I would agree normally that populism is a fad in the US and is gonna burn out. In a normal environment that would be true.

But these guys are openly going after people's kids and also trying to kill average Americans for sport.

Suddenly a "fuck everything" approach to politics is going to start sounding real sexy to a whole lot of ordinary people.
 
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strunkenwhite

Well-known member
As far as they're concerned the Republic has been dead since the Civil War. What they're interested in is amassing enough power to do as much vandalism to the system as possible to make the idea of relying on centralized power so unappealing people begin identifying more with their neighborhoods and counties and states than with their own country.
I agree the group you describe in this post exists, but I don't think they are a majority of the people the term "populist right" should apply to.
 

The Immortal Watch Dog

Well-known member
Hetman
I agree the group you describe in this post exists, but I don't think they are a majority of the people the term "populist right" should apply to

Maybe, I personally disagree but what I tbink matters more than their numbers is when it comes down to nut cutt'n time how many of them would actually back up the outrageous shit they talk both online and off.

You only need 2-3% of these Deathwish larpers to be serious for everyone's table to get flipped.
 

strunkenwhite

Well-known member
Maybe, I personally disagree but what I tbink matters more than their numbers is when it comes down to nut cutt'n time how many of them would actually back up the outrageous shit they talk both online and off.

You only need 2-3% of these Deathwish larpers to be serious for everyone's table to get flipped.
Sure, I'm just saying that if someone asks, "what is the populist right?", that's not a great answer.
 

History Learner

Well-known member
The Right Wing Populist movement as it stands now will not win. While I understand the sympathize with their distaste for the older Conservative movement and more Establishment Republicans they have a tendencies to paint with overbroad brushes that make it impossible for them to build alliances and actually effect real change.

Plus they seem to have a RIDICULOUS blind spot on the electability of Trump in a way that ignores on the ground reality, plus they tend to place to much emphasis on Trump and relitigating the 2020 election.

You see it constantly here, the populist right slanders the older Movement Conservatives by accusing them of "failing to conserve anything" or of "being the liberals of 20 years ago" and such. Yes, I know, you're already thinking "well, they're right", but that's the exact thing, they're wrong. They tend to focus and fixate on the areas where the Conservative movement LOST, not on the areas they won. This is in large part because the media tend to focus on those areas heavily, both to demoralize the right but also to not highlight the left's weakness.

You want examples? I'll give two big ones. The first is the homeschool and private school movement. People really need to understand that before the late 1970s and early 1980s the very IDEA of homeschooling was ILLEGAL across most of the country and that people would even WANT to do it or be allowed was a strange and weird THING. FURTHER, private schools were either for Rich People or Catholics. The idea of private schools for random non-Catholic middle class folks was ALIEN. School Choice wasn't even a thing.

Now? Homeschooling is legal across the entire country and school choice is a strong enough movement that it's slowly chipping away as the public school monopoly on state funding. In the 1960s and 70s the very idea would have been laughable. No, not enough people on the right take advantage of these things, but the simple fact they CAN and it is a thing they can DO represents a MASSIVE setback to the Progressive indoctrination program of children and if you go look in the right places you will see Progressives CONSTANTLY bemoaning that Homeschooling and Private Schooling are THINGS... and there's next to nothing they have been able to do to turn the tide on back on these topics.

Another major victory is of course on Gun Rights. As recent at the 1980s the "collective interpretation" of the 2nd Amendment was taught as LEGAL FACT. Heck, that was the main interpretation textbooks were going with even the YEAR HELLER WAS DECIDED (I know, I literally took a Constitutional Law class going over Constitutional Rights and Interpretation that year and the teacher wisely decided to wait on discussing the 2nd Amendment until the Heller decision came forth... to say Heller and the textbook were... in tension with each other would be an understatement). But bear in mind that's been more than a legal thing, that's also been a cultural thing. For all we bemoan how routine gun control demands are, how they keep trying to regulate around the 2nd Amendment something most people don't understand is since the 1990s there has been no successful attempt at a new Gun Control law... even when the Dems were in majority and held the Presidency. The issue has become that toxic and that one sided that the question these days isn't "will we keep AR-15s" it's become "can we roll back gun control from pre-1990s". I seriously don't think people understand how powerful the gun control lobby was in the 1990s and earlier and one of the reasons the left is so bitter about this was that they VERY NEARLY WON on this issue... they THOUGHT THEY HAD IT and then... everything started rolling back.

And who won that? It wasn't the modern populist right, no, it was the old Conservative movement allying with the various gun rights groups working together towards a common goal.

Heck, people also don't understand how far the Conservative movement has come when it comes to the COURTS either. The Right managed to break the progressive grip on the courts in the 1980s and since that times it's been a slow and systemic march BACK through them, but for most populist rightists the Courts have always been slightly dominated by the Republicans, as most Millennials don't remember a time when the Chief Justice wasn't a Republican appointee. What they don't get is that again, that was a MASSIVE fight and it was super establishment and very neo-conny HW Bush who appointed CLARENCE THOMAS to the Supreme Court. Stop and REALLY THINK about that for a movement. Thomas is the ideological leader of the Conservative wing of the Court, he's a firebrand Originalist and Conservative... but does the Establishment get credit for putting him there? No... because he's been there so long most Populist take his appointment for GRANTED.

Until the Populist Right learns to give credit where it is due and is willing to actually work WITH the older groups and not constantly paint with a broad brush they will have a lot of trouble building coalitions on the right that will be able to actually win and govern.

Likewise they need to take a long, LONG look at Trump and understand that he has MAJOR electoral issues. Yes, he had the election stolen from him and what happened was AT MINIMUM sleezy as fuck and at worst actively criminal. But here's the thing, he's ALSO highly toxic to many moderates, he actively turns people off from working with him, and he's been effectively demonized by the media to the extent no other candidate has. And this isn't just the standard media demonization either, Trump is a person whom people have STRONG reactions to REGARDLESS, often those reactions are negative. And while he is very popular with those whom like him, when you look at an electoral college map, those who like him are not in the right places TO WIN.

And that's a major issue. Yes, Trump should be president right now, yes it's unfair to him, but draw me a map that he can plausibly win in 2024. You seriously think he can flip all the states he needs to from 2020? I don't see it, not with the way subsequent elections have gone. And so long as the Populist Right build their brand and identity around Trump, as long as he defines them, they have no chance of actually winning and governing successfully.

Yes, the beaucratic state needs to be brought to heel. I'm personally in favor of firing everyone above a GS-10 in the government and basically burning it all down and prohibiting anyone currently serving in the government who has not actively become a whistleblower from continuing to serve in the government. But tell me, how many in the Populist movement even know what GS-10 EVEN MEANS?

Again, they lack the basic knowledge to govern... they lack the ability to make alliances because they constantly demean and degrade those who have been fighting for the same things they have. They ignore the hard fights those coming before them have won while focusing exclusively on the fights they've lost, all while not actually offering real strategies to win those lost fights that were lost just going "you should have done more/better/harder!" or offering solutions that would literally require a fucking time machine.

I see you read Richard Hannania's Blog.
 

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