Israel versus Palestine: 2021 Edition

Simonbob

Well-known member
Actually, the funny thing is that the progressives backing the Palestinians have been waning for some time, the real problem is the Palestinian control of the narrative.

I never really got why they have control of the narrative. I mean, they're not good guys, they can't bribe the media, there's really only one reason I can find, and that's the Media having an issue with Israel itself.


And Israel's a tiny nation doing bugger all to anybody. Why bother?
 

Aaron Fox

Well-known member
I never really got why they have control of the narrative. I mean, they're not good guys, they can't bribe the media, there's really only one reason I can find, and that's the Media having an issue with Israel itself.


And Israel's a tiny nation doing bugger all to anybody. Why bother?
It's called putting guns to one's head and controlling the avenues of communication. Before the Internet, the Palestinian groups had a stranglehold of the avenues of communication. You can't go anywhere without their permission, you can't communicate without their permission, so on and so forth. It's one of the oldest tricks in the book, really.
 

Simonbob

Well-known member
It's called putting guns to one's head and controlling the avenues of communication. Before the Internet, the Palestinian groups had a stranglehold of the avenues of communication. You can't go anywhere without their permission, you can't communicate without their permission, so on and so forth. It's one of the oldest tricks in the book, really.
Sure, but the reporters leave.

So, why aren't they getting revenge on those who abused them? Really, they could skip over Palestine all together, and pretty much nobody would care, in the West. Why even go there, if it's just going to screw them?

It's one of the many reasons I really don't get reporters. They're sure as hell not Clark Kent.
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
Sure, but the reporters leave.

So, why aren't they getting revenge on those who abused them? Really, they could skip over Palestine all together, and pretty much nobody would care, in the West. Why even go there, if it's just going to screw them?

It's one of the many reasons I really don't get reporters. They're sure as hell not Clark Kent.
Yes, they technically can go back, release all sorts of interesting covertly recorded materials, and so on. Once. Going back afterwards would be rather unwise. And for non independent reporters, that goes for the whole organization.
So if an organization wants to have permanent business of reporting from Palestine, it has to play nice with the local guys with guns.
 

Aaron Fox

Well-known member
Sure, but the reporters leave.

So, why aren't they getting revenge on those who abused them? Really, they could skip over Palestine all together, and pretty much nobody would care, in the West. Why even go there, if it's just going to screw them?

It's one of the many reasons I really don't get reporters. They're sure as hell not Clark Kent.
Yeah, its not as simple as that...
Yes, they technically can go back, release all sorts of interesting covertly recorded materials, and so on. Once. Going back afterwards would be rather unwise. And for non independent reporters, that goes for the whole organization.
So if an organization wants to have permanent business of reporting from Palestine, it has to play nice with the local guys with guns.
... and ninja'd.
 

Simonbob

Well-known member
Yes, they technically can go back, release all sorts of interesting covertly recorded materials, and so on. Once. Going back afterwards would be rather unwise. And for non independent reporters, that goes for the whole organization.
So if an organization wants to have permanent business of reporting from Palestine, it has to play nice with the local guys with guns.

I know that. But, nobody knows much about 3/4 of the world, because there's pretty much no reporters there. That, and it has bugger all that matters to us.

So, why go back? What makes Palestine matter?
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
I know that. But, nobody knows much about 3/4 of the world, because there's pretty much no reporters there. That, and it has bugger all that matters to us.

So, why go back? What makes Palestine matter?
It is a known controversy. It brings clicks, views, whatever. Media organizations make their money out of getting that. And it gets them from the hip, lefty crowd and diverse islamic immigrant communities, so its not even just any viewership, but the desired kind.
 

Simonbob

Well-known member
It is a known controversy. It brings clicks, views, whatever. Media organizations make their money out of getting that. And it gets them from the hip, lefty crowd and diverse islamic immigrant communities, so its not even just any viewership, but the desired kind.
So they lie, sacrifice their own, and support monsters for money? Aren't there a thousand other groups out there who are less difficult and safer? Shouldn't there be pretty much the same money elsewhere?


You know, I keep coming back to the only real motivation I can find that covers all the aspects of this situation is that it'll give them money as well as screwing over both Israel and the West.
 

GoldRanger

May the power protect you
Founder
Sure, but the reporters leave.

So, why aren't they getting revenge on those who abused them? Really, they could skip over Palestine all together, and pretty much nobody would care, in the West. Why even go there, if it's just going to screw them?

It's one of the many reasons I really don't get reporters. They're sure as hell not Clark Kent.
Because then Hamas might ban the entire agency from Gaza and their competitors will get all the scoops. So their reporters are instructed to shut up.

Even then, it doesn't always work.
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
So they lie, sacrifice their own, and support monsters for money? Aren't there a thousand other groups out there who are less difficult and safer? Shouldn't there be pretty much the same money elsewhere?
Not the same money. "Some random small spat no one has heard about" vs "THE Palestine-Israel conflict". Nevermind that when it comes to conflict, the more "interesting" the situation, the danger is often proportional too. Some groups may take the principled way and say they can't send anyone due to threat to their journalists if they try to be honest, but that only means the ones who don't and are willing to play along will remain and get all the attention and money.

In a way it is a very similar situation to journalism in China. If you want to say things CCP doesn't want you to say then you better do it from far away.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
I'll add to this that Reporters don't have a Batman-like ability to happen upon crimes news while out for a stroll. They're dependent on a network of informants, interviewees, and local sources to get information. Those informants don't have the luxury of going away.

I posted this a bit upthread but this one bears repeating as it's an insider's view of how the media is manipulated. Foreign press correspondents are wined and dined to put them in the right frame of mind, then paired up with already-corrupt senior press members who will teach them to play ball. Meanwhile, the local sources know their families will die with them if they pass on unapproved information or let reporters see the wrong thing.

 

Aaron Fox

Well-known member
I know that. But, nobody knows much about 3/4 of the world, because there's pretty much no reporters there. That, and it has bugger all that matters to us.

So, why go back? What makes Palestine matter?
Largely because it makes bank thanks to the fact that controversy and conflict and, well, generally negative stuff makes bank when it comes to the news business (which shouldn't be a business).

No one wants to hear how Israel goes out and tells Palestinians to go home/stay away from the AO and succeeding because that's positive which doesn't sell.
 

GoldRanger

May the power protect you
Founder
Here are some more adorable images of kids having fun in the summer camps of the "good guys":

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S'task

Renegade Philosopher
Administrator
Staff Member
Founder
On Palestinian control of the narrative.

There is more layers of complexity than that too. Prior to the last, about, ten years, the Arab World and Iranian World were both quite pro-Palestinian, supporting them monetarily and, more importantly, diplomatically. If we rewind back to the 1970s, the entire Arab Oil Embargo was predicated on Arab support of Israel, and remember, it hit more than the US, it hit all of western Europe.

Now, bear in mind, the US has always been an oil producing state. Literally, the industry was invented in the US. Sure, in the 1970s it was a smaller industry than it had been and the Arab world dominated the supply chain, but the US still did (and does) produced oil. The Arab Oil embargo against the US didn't have the effect on the US that the Arabs wanted: reducing support for Israel, rather, it just made the US wake up to oil dependency and thus began the push for "energy independence" in the US and the expansion of the US Oil industry to the point where the US is one of the top oil producing nations in the world once again.

But you know where the embargo DID have the desired effect? Western Europe. After all, aside from the North Sea, Europe isn't exactly noted for its large oil reserves. The oil shock shook the European governments and caused them to... reconsider prior support for Israel they had shown. Further, bear in mind that anti-Semitism in Europe has always been a much more institutional and entrenched idea than it ever was in the US. So you have governments reorienting to be against Israel, and the European media following suit, plus the cultural anti-Semitism to play off of?

So a large contingent of media representatives reporting on Israel, especially those from Europe, were already giving cover to the Palestinians all the way back starting in the 1980s and throughout the 1990s. Now, have a few American reporters into the mix of the international press pool. They don't have institutional reasons to take sides in the conflict (due to the media in the US not answering to the government, unlike, say, the BBC...), but they now do have a SOCIAL reason to begin framing things that way. After all, all these elite European reporters are framing it that way, and they don't want to be ostracized from the elite reporter circles, and add in some good ol' fashioned American inferiority complex towards European establishments, especially among the petty-elite of the US (which the media class generally is a part of), and finally the "access" issues outlined above and, well, you have a recipe for the US mainstream media falling into line with the Palestinian narrative.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
Doesn't mean it would've been a good idea to teach you this stuff that young, especially when coupled with indoctrination of hatred.
The hatred part I agree on.
And technically there are plenty of ways to learn a simpler not so violent thing that.young in the US
 

Arch Dornan

Oh, lovely. They've sent me a mo-ron.
Hamas summer camp for kids...

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In the 3rd image they're practicing the abduction of an IDF soldier.

I remind you that these are the people the progressives and various NGOs are rooting for and consider the good guys of the conflict.
Are they going to have another photo of proud Palestinians raising bloody hands from Israelis they butchered?
 

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