Immigration and multiculturalism news

[SoliFortissimi]

implying third world ones have some special ability to make economies work even though they suck at it at home.

......four decades of complaining about manufacturing moving to third world countries that have less wage costs, and you guys still don't get it?

That they are poor, low quality, and less educated is EXACTLY why they're useful. They can do the lesser paying jobs First World citizens won't, allowing the latter to move "up" the chain. Because that's why the third world countries are still third world, while the first world countries have all the cool tech and high standards of living.

Not that the latter are appreciated by our generation. It's always bizarre to see the richest people in the history of humanity act like they're destitute.

TL;DR: them being poor is exactly why they're useful. They can be paid less.

 

[Marduk]

......four decades of complaining about manufacturing moving to third world countries that have less wage costs, and you guys still don't get it?

It doesn't cost less because Mexicans work faster.
It costs less because the strict western laws and regulations do not apply in Mexico.

That they are poor, low quality, and less educated is EXACTLY why they're useful. They can do the lesser paying jobs First World citizens won't, allowing the latter to move "up" the chain.

Only at home (here our overcomplicated laws apply), and low quality workers are not more efficient. If they were, Japan and South Korea would not be industrial superpowers, and westerners would be buying cars from China and India instead of Japan.

Because that's why the third world countries are still third world, while the first world countries have all the cool tech and high standards of living.

No, it's not a matter of humility, but ability.

Not that the latter are appreciated by our generation. It's always bizarre to see the richest people in the history of humanity act like they're destitute.

TL;DR: them being poor is exactly why they're useful. They can be paid less.

LMAO, this is economics knowledge fit for a third world school graduate and taught by a woke NGO teacher.
They can be paid less because they suck too much to do anything worth more, not because they are poor. Poor countries who nevertheless have populations who are very capable stop being poor fast. See: Post war China, Vietnam, Japan.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

Immigration can neither solve problems in the countries they come from, or solve the problems in the nations they enter.
1: They take jobs, resources or just general space in the native nation, fucking it up
2: They remove people with drive and effort from their own nations, fucking up their nations

 

[SoliFortissimi]

It doesn't cost less because Mexicans work faster.
It costs less because the strict western laws and regulations do not apply in Mexico.

Only at home (here our overcomplicated laws apply), and low quality workers are not more efficient. If they were, Japan and South Korea would not be industrial superpowers, and westerners would be buying cars from China and India instead of Japan.

No, it's not a matter of humility, but ability.

LMAO, this is economics knowledge fit for a third world school graduate and taught by a woke NGO teacher.
They can be paid less because they suck too much to do anything worth more, not because they are poor. Poor countries who nevertheless have populations who are very capable stop being poor fast. See: Post war China, Vietnam, Japan.

What an absurdity. You're attacking statements I never even made, all to attack a policy that originated among right wing economics and people like Milton Friedman.

1. They are less capable, and so can only do lesser paying jobs for now, unless or until their kids get educated enough to start moving up the chain.
2. Japan absolutely started off with less paying jobs, and we do import cars from India and China now.
3. Without these immigrant workers, what will happen is that economies will collapse or degrade in lower level sectors and move away entirely to cheaper countries.


All in all, I advise you not to screw up your own state's economy out of wilful ignorance.

 

[Marduk]

1. They are less capable, and so can only do lesser paying jobs for now, unless or until their kids get educated enough to start moving up the chain.

It's culture and possibly even biology, not just education. And with woke laws and regulations like AA and "disparate impact" doctrine, that is intolerable to the legal and political status quo.

2. Japan absolutely started off with less paying jobs, and we do import cars from India and China now.

So how many BYD and Tata cars did you see on the road last time you were driving?

3. Without these immigrant workers, what will happen is that economies will collapse or degrade in lower level sectors and move away entirely to cheaper countries.

Mostly, entirely, cosmetic difference. If we want the industry back, we have to massively change regulations affecting them, not create a legal gray area that the left will tolerate because it helps them import new supporters.

All in all, I advise you not to screw up your own state's economy out of wilful ignorance.

Too late, it is already screwed. I advice you to not screw other sectors of your state in left approved deal with the devil to "save" the economy just so the left can screw both the economy and everything else too.

 

[SoliFortissimi]

It's culture and possibly even biology, not just education

Then we can have no further discussion.

 

[Marduk]

Then we can have no further discussion.

Indeed. "It's only education" is leftist blank slateist dogma, no more, no less. What the right mocks as belief that all people of the world are just interchangeable economic units like in a Civ-like game.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

Then we can have no further discussion.

You're implying populations with vastly different phenotypes, incompatible bone marrows, and more, would have identical brain structures, lmao?

 

[Cherico]

I'm certain that 99% of anti-immigrant sentiment could be avoided if they were more honest about prosecuting criminal immigrants (in Europe) and not giving them freebies (America).

As it is, the only reason the Republican leadership even pretends to oppose Mexican immigrants is because it knows its voters are too stupid to see how essential immigration is. Or worse, would rather destroy the economy than see anyone that doesn't talk the same language as them.

Ok were going to have to talk about this.

In life there are trade offs, there is no such thing as a free lunch and no matter what you do there will be a price.

The price of immigration expecially large scale immigration is social stability, because adding lots of people from a completely different culture to your country is distabilizing and always has been. This is why america goes through stages of openess and closeness.

Where the US closes down its boarders and assimilates the last group of immigrants.

If you mention the Irish, the Irish took a long time to assimulate and every where they went they had a tendency to participate in machine politics and make things in a region a lot more corrupt. And yes they were more prone to crime that wasn't entirely their fault because the brits mismanaged the Island in special kind of stupid which fucked up their culture but that was the case.

When you accept new immigrants you are accepting that its going to take at least 3 generations to assimulate them and thats kind of a big ask. Which is why eras of mass immigration are followed by the closed eras. Trying to prevent the closed eras of assimulation garentees less and less social stability until it all explodes in violent civil war.

Which would solve the illegal imigration issue but not in a manner any of us would particularly desire.

 

[Bacle]

......four decades of complaining about manufacturing moving to third world countries that have less wage costs, and you guys still don't get it?

That they are poor, low quality, and less educated is EXACTLY why they're useful. They can do the lesser paying jobs First World citizens won't, allowing the latter to move "up" the chain. Because that's why the third world countries are still third world, while the first world countries have all the cool tech and high standards of living.

Not that the latter are appreciated by our generation. It's always bizarre to see the richest people in the history of humanity act like they're destitute.

TL;DR: them being poor is exactly why they're useful. They can be paid less.

Great to see the 'racism of low expectations' trope is alive and well in the baseline views of Reaganite economics.

It explains so much.

People feature on Dirty Jobs have just as much, if not often more, of a critical role to play in society than that those of your mindset, where those jobs are too 'dirty' or 'low class' for '1st worlders' to do.

This mindset is why IT usually come with a New Delhi accent and not english as a first language, as well as why so much of our domestic supply chain go off-shored, hollowing out the economic engine of this nation and leaving it far more vulnerable to political, military, and ecological disruptions to the global order.

Your whole economic outlook relies on the Panama Canal and Suez Canal/Red Sea never being blocked/have transits reduced by ecological issues for any real length of time, and just-in-time economics that mean there is very little logistical cushioning in the supply chains of so many strategic materials, never mind consumer goods.

 

[SoliFortissimi]

Your whole economic outlook relies on the Panama Canal and Suez Canal/Red Sea never being blocked/have transits reduced by ecological issues for any real length of time, and just-in-time economics that mean there is very little logistical cushioning in the supply chains of so many strategic materials, never mind consumer goods.

Either canal being blocked would definitely be a disaster. That's why the US Navy has made it its mission to guarantee freedom of navigation, just like the Royal Navy before them.

People feature on Dirty Jobs have just as much, if not often more, of a critical role to play in society than that those of your mindset, where those jobs are too 'dirty' or 'low class' for '1st worlders' to do.

Not denying it. I'm the pro-immigration guy. I WANT them to come to my country so that my people can have decent competition. Just as Professor Friedman would have wanted it.

It's frankly a rare piece of luck that the Marxists sans Sanders got hoodwinked into supporting a policy that will certainly subvert the power of those bloody Unions they love so much. The more free labour pours into the country, the more the bargaining power of the footsoldiers of Socialism is diluted.

 

[Abhorsen]

1: They take jobs, resources or just general space in the native nation, fucking it up

This point is based on commie logic. Economics is not a zero sum game, I don't know how many times this needs to be yelled. Elon Musk is an immigrant, and he has improved America. Not because he stole

2: They remove people with drive and effort from their own nations, fucking up their nations

Good? Fuck those countries, I want all the Musks in America.

Quite simply, you made a really bad argument here. I actually agree migration should be limited, but these aren't good arguments for why at all.



Basically, you need to note that the culture of the immigrants being sent is a culture of crime and desperation and communism, and them coming has long term negative cultural impact. That's the issue with immigration, it's why the rest of America wants a wall on the Californian border more than one on the Mexico border: This isn't an economic problem (the economics are great, number goes up, yay). This is a crime and culture problem, along with a future political problem when they or their kids vote.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

This point is based on commie logic. Economics is not a zero sum game, I don't know how many times this needs to be yelled. Elon Musk is an immigrant, and he has improved America. Not because he stole

Because Elon Musk is totally applicable to the millions of completely uneducated glorified slave labor workers who will not assimilate and will just lower the standard of living for the nations they invade?
Also pretty certain commies prefer immigration, not trying to prevent it lmao.

Good? Fuck those countries, I want all the Musks in America.

Quite simply, you made a really bad argument here. I actually agree migration should be limited, but these aren't good arguments for why at all.

Look I can be offensive as hell and I share many views that simply would not be tolerated on this website, but even I wouldn't say that we should go out of our way to actively harm other nations, as shit-hole as they may be. I'd rather they all get better, not worse.

 

[Bacle]

Either canal being blocked would definitely be a disaster. That's why the US Navy has made it its mission to guarantee freedom of navigation, just like the Royal Navy before them.

USN numbers don't help when what is fucking the Panama Canal is low water levels and poor water cycling design in the legacy locks.

And in case you haven't notice, shit tons of US and allied ships has not been able to stop the Houthi's from effectively shutting down the southern entrance to the Red Sea.

Before, we even had Evergiven fuck the supply chain when it grounded in the Suez for a bit.

The entire economic genga game that Reaganite economics and domestic policy was built on relies on both canals having unimpeded access and no natural variations in climate or political strife near them, which cannot be counted on with the supply chains any further.

Not denying it. I'm the pro-immigration guy. I WANT them to come to my country so that my people can have decent competition. Just as Professor Friedman would have wanted it.

In an ideal world, maybe that works; we do not live in an idle world, protecting vital domestic industries and workers is a strategic imperative (something Friedman's world view doesn't account for and tries to ignore), importing workers import their own issues (see the Indian caste system based discrimination being imported to the US and causing court cases), and depended on no large scale conflicts breaking out to disrupt Friedman's economic/political thesis that was another of those 'end of history' type farces.

I read Friedman, and I know not to take him seriously when the realities of the world have repeated rendered his economic and political thesis moot/irrelevant with current events outpacing his ideology.

That the Reaganites like you keep taking him seriously is part of why the whole GOP is so schizo and incompetent; it lives in a lot of political delusions, false logistical realities, and that strategic concerns can be reduced to purely economic metrics or factors.

I also would prefer to protect the American worker from H1Bs and other imported labor substitutions, as well as from off-shoring, and would like some more Roosevelt style trust-busting against the abusive monopolies that have developed since DC tried to forget anti-trust laws are a thing to enforce.

It's frankly a rare piece of luck that the Marxists sans Sanders got hoodwinked into supporting a policy that will certainly subvert the power of those bloody Unions they love so much. The more free labour pours into the country, the more the bargaining power of the footsoldiers of Socialism is diluted.

Yes, yes, union's are all evil socialist to Reaganite's, and thus you want to import foreign labor to undercut US labor or off-shore to remove US labor as a factor, because you think the west/US is 'above' those jobs 3rd world's are imported for.

This is why the Friedman worshippers are largely ignored and laughed at by people not in the Reaganite cult.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

I’d like to add that no one actually thinks themselves “above” dirty jobs, it’s just that living in the Western World is bloody expensive and these jobs simply don’t pay enough. People would clean toilets if it paid the bills.

 

[Bacle]

I’d like to add that no one actually thinks themselves “above” dirty jobs, it’s just that living in the Western World is bloody expensive and these jobs simply don’t pay enough. People would clean toilets if it paid the bills.

But that's what we import 3rd worlders for, because the are poor already, thus will accept less pay/accept the illegal immigrant life in order to scrub toilets for cheap.

Because no company or political group in the US actually wants to try to make wages keep up with cost of living and inflation, they just want to import more poor people who will accept less and work for less.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

I’d like to add that no one actually thinks themselves “above” dirty jobs, it’s just that living in the Western World is bloody expensive and these jobs simply don’t pay enough. People would clean toilets if it paid the bills.

Those jobs would pay a lot more if there wasn't glorified slaves running about.

 

[SoliFortissimi]

shit tons of US and allied ships has not been able to stop the Houthi's from effectively shutting down the southern entrance to the Red Sea

Only because Biden was a coward.

I also would prefer to protect the American worker from H1Bs and other imported labor substitutions,

If the workers of the world's greatest economy can't compete with imported workers from third world countries, they deserve to lose their jobs.

And don't be ungrateful. Conservatism would be dead in America if not for Reagan, and in fact it started a steep decline after his death. Reagan was the last time a Republican President won the popular vote, won nearly all the states, won reelection, without needing to start a ruinous war for it.

Without Reagan, the Republican Party is as good as dead.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

If the workers of the world's greatest economy can't compete with imported workers from third world countries, they deserve to lose their jobs.

If the companies of the world's greatest economy cannot afford to hire native workers, they deserve to go bankrupt.

 

[Bacle]

Only because Biden was a coward.

Yes, and he's not had the GOP hold his feet to the fire over it because they've been acting retarded about the Ukraine and Israel aid.

If the workers of the world's greatest economy can't compete with imported workers from third world countries, they deserve to lose their jobs.

No, not when those workers are often in the nation illegally, and not when imported labor bring import problem not already existent in the native worker base.

As well, imported labor cannot be trusted to certain jobs in the military industrial complex or strategic industries, like shipyards that died when Reagan cut their subsidies and offshored so much US ship production to South Korea, Japan, and the CCP.

The USN doesn't have the skilled worker base it needs to keep the fleet numbers up because the civie shipyard subsidies disappeared under Reagan and Friedmans watch, same with many other industries in teh US where the skilled worker base evaporated because the work was shipped overseas and illegals cannot build CVNs or Boomers or even logistical ships.

And don't be ungrateful. Conservatism would be dead in America if not for Reagan, and in fact it started a steep decline after his death. Reagan was the last time a Republican President won the popular vote, won nearly all the states, won reelection, without needing to start a ruinous war for it.

Teddy Roosevelt is on Mount Rushmore, not Reagan, and you may hate the Roosevelt's but there is another brand of Right besides what Reagan and Friedman have offered.

Roosevelt's have also not lost the respect of the middle and parts of the liberals, unlike Reagan, and offer a better type of conservatism, a conservatism of the environment, of economic prosperity under fair (not free) trade, and not just cloaked Prosperity Gospel Evangelism like Reagan and Friedman offer.

Reagan's legacy also gave us the Bush family, lest you forget, and that means Reagan gets partial credit for all of Bush Sr and Bush Jr's fuck ups too.

Without Reagan, the Republican Party is as good as dead.

No, it just reverts to a Rooseveltian type, instead of Reaganite type, and the Roosevelts are more well regarded than Reagan by most of the nation.

It's not Reagan's face on Mount Rushmore.