Germany Goes East first in 1914, British politics aspects only discussion
- Thread starter raharris1973
- Start date
I forget one thing - german wonted not only puppet Poland,but also baltics,Belaruss and Ukraine.So The map would change to be more like thus?
Possible Caucassus states,too.
They would not agree to limited gains.Not before somebody bleed them.In that case,Russia would not agree.
And,anyway,our cabal idiots ruling England would not agree anyway,too.
VictortheMonarch
Victor the Crusader
They would, Germany wasn't the Aggressor in WWI and really didn't want to upset the balance too much, besides, why would family oriented Willy want to destroy the holdings of his cousin Nicky? He only agreed to send the Commies to Russia because he thought they would be a minor nuisance, not kill his family.
Just because a Germany that needed the agriculture of the area's at the time took them does not mean they would take them in a short war.
That was their plans from 1915 - and modified from 1914,when they want take all polish,baltic,belarus and ukraine territories and create Judeopolonia - state co-ruled by germans and local jews.
Germans abadonned that brillant idea,when they undarstandt,that not only poles,but every other nation there would fought for russians in that case.
VictortheMonarch
Victor the Crusader
Not me,Carrol Quigley,american Historian.Who had contacts in british elites,wrote book about cabal in 1949,and waited till his own deadt/1977/ with publishing it./Which happened in 1981/
49ersfootball
Well-known member
Subbed & following.
sillygoose
Well-known member
Cabal is a bit of a strong word, they were an influential circle of elites that worked towards specific policies they wanted to see happen.
Today they are Chatham House, an organization that has existed for over 100 years:
Chatham House - Wikipedia
It grew out of the Round Table Movement:
Round Table movement - Wikipedia
Well,according to Quigley book,they decided about England politic from 1891 till 1945,first provoking war with Boers,then helping start WW1/although Germans,Russians and french helped there,too/ and finally supporting Germany till 1939.Cabal is a bit of a strong word, they were an influential circle of elites that worked towards specific policies they wanted to see happen.
Today they are Chatham House, an organization that has existed for over 100 years:
Chatham House - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
It grew out of the Round Table Movement:
Round Table movement - Wikipedia
All becouse they really belived,that they could achieve world controlled by England....
And lost their Empire as result.
sillygoose
Well-known member
Not really. The empire was going to go by 1900 although many won't have realised at that time.
Also 1914 was primarily the decisions in Berlin, initially in building up the coalition against them then deciding on a full scale war. As I've said elsewhere Germany forgot Bismarck's lessons and screwed things up badly.
The idiots in charge didn't support Germany until 1939. They didn't seriously oppose him but that's a different matter and until spring 39 there were still hopes he could be a responsible actor.
They existed and ruled England from 1891,at least according to author.
WW1 - they wanted war with germany as much as germans beat russians before they become too strong.
WW2 - less fuckup,more ideology.They genuinly belived,that if they toss Austria,Czech and Poland under german bus,Berlin would not want anytching more and fight soviets for them.
Idiots.Berlin ALWAYS want more.
Yes,Berlin belived,that they must start war before Russia is reformed.And,if they do not fuck Schieffen plan,it should worked.
But - Rhodes cabal in England wanted war with germans,too.
On that last point unlikely on a number of counts.
a) Schrieffer plan - if you mean his initial memo demanded more units than Germany actually had in 1914 - including in the east - and also included breaching Dutch neutrality as well as Belgian. The form actually carried out was more realistic but basically ignored the logistics of the long march required by the forces involved and the very long supply lines - especially after the Belgians successfully blocked their rail lines. In comparison French forces could be moved to reach the attacking Germans using the well developed French railway network, ditto with supplies and equipment. If the French had had a less insane battle doctrine, such as I believe they had before 1912 then the Germans would probably have been met in force and probably stopped not far inside French borders, albeit with very heavy losses on both sides.
b) Elements, especially in the Tory party and military saw Germany as the primary threat to Britain but while some elements were more bellicose, calling for peacetime conscription for instance, only a relative few were daft enough to want a war, as opposed to seeing it as likely.
c) In the run up to 1939 too many in power - not necessarily in the country although they may have thought so - desired to avoid war and had been sold the belief that the Versialles treaty had been too harsh. The basic problem was it was too weak and not enforced to keep Germany from being unable to start a new war but not generous enough to be acceptable to the Germans. The latter option was impossible anyway as the 'victorious' allied powers, especially France and Belgium needed at least some reparations to help them recover from the devastation of much of the country by German forces and policies.
sillygoose
Well-known member
Ruled or were influential? I seem to recall the author saying they didn't decide everything and were more about creating a form of loose 'gleichschaltung' (standardization of policy) among the ruling class. As the 1930s demonstrated they weren't necessarily in alignment and often struggled amongst one another even if they were all part of the same government.
In WW2 for instance there was the fight between the Chamberlain faction and the rest of the roundtable each with different goals. Chamberlain wanted to create a new balance of power in Europe with the Allies controlling western Europe, Germany controlling central Europe (assuming they did so without fighting a war, which British public opinion would force them to participate in), and the Soviets (unfortunately) dominating eastern Europe. Getting the USSR and Germany to fight wasn't really the plan for the Chamberlain faction, but after failing to balance the demands of Roosevelt with that of the British public and the round table members a war broke out anyway. A certain faction (Churchill's The Focus) wanted war and worked with Roosevelt to achieve it, which underminded Chamberlain's efforts.
Sadly the Regime of the Colonels let themselves be convinced by FDR that between the Allied powers and the US Germany could be defeated at low cost so they needed to fight them when the opportunity arose, which would leave Poland the major power in Central Europe which would organize the smaller states into a military alliance to balance out the Soviets with Allied support. That ultimately foiled Chamberlain's plan to avoid war. He didn't want to throw Poland under the bus, just have them make concessions and work with Germany against the Soviets.
We can argue about what Berlin wanted, but that's not really a productive conversation.
There isn't any records from before the war started that Germany wanted to invade Russia. In fact all that is available shows that from 1935 onwards they were scared shitless that Moscow was building up a major military forces (the 5 year programs) to invade and conquer Europe. The 1940 decision to attack the Soviets was due to Stalin rapidly building up his military and Britain trying to get Moscow to fight the Germans. Due to Stalin's behavior in 1940 and how Molotov was 'negotiating' over entry into the Axis alliance Hitler considered it inevitable that the Soviets would backstab him at some point so decided to attack first. That's not to say necessarily that the Soviets were going to attack in 1941, but they were getting ready to attack probably in 1942 when it was thought Germany would be weaker after fighting the British for a while and perhaps the US entering the war.
1.True,Chamberlain do not always agree with them.They were not absolute rulers.
2.Poland was ruled by idiots,who belived,that we are still superpower,like in 16th century.We were not.
3.Germans,i think,genuinely wanted kind of alliance with Poland against soviets.If we agree,entire Europe would speak german now - becouse we would become vassals in time.
4.Soviets planned to invade Europe - but provoke war there first.Which they succed - but france surrender,and made their great plan to backstab weakened winned impossible.
But,it was solid,good plan.
sillygoose
Well-known member
Seems like they wanted to get back there and thought the legend of the battle of the vistula was due to sheer will.
Maybe not vassals in the sense of the Czechs or Hungarians, but Italian level allies.
Pretty much, but FDR, the Polish colonels, and Britain ensured it.
What specifically?
1.Indeed.Piłsudzki,their leader,was smart,but died in 1935.And we have idiots who thought that they could win by power of their Will - and run like cowards when reality hit them.
Funny,considering that they accused last King of poland of not dying heroically when war was lost.
2.True,we would be second Italy for them.Maybe they would even let us hold some colonies on East,like italian have in Africa.
3.No,it was all thanks rto France.If they hold for at least one year,soviets would backstab Hitler and get entire Europe.
4.Soviet plan - made deal with germans,let them fight allies,and attack after few years of hard fighting when both sides would be on their last legs.
Sralin was genocidal thug,but this plan should work and gave him both Europe and Africa/there was notching which could stop soviet forces there/
Most of Asia,too.
Of course,tyhanks to shitty Navy,they would never take Americas and Japan,and eventually fall to economy.
Only good thing in this case - survivors in West Europe would not praise communism.
Buba
A total creep
Argh,you got me.I am dying,somebody help me.....
And,you are right about 1932 as end of his wits.
Pity,that he do not die earlier,let say - in 1932.
6 year plan for making better army would be finished.Not enough to win,but maybe for France to attack for real?
In such case,sralin probably would not dare to join his german allies.
Carrot of Truth
War is Peace
If Germany played their cards right they could go with the whole liberating eastern Europe from the Russian yoke angle. So long as they never invade Belgium it would make it next to impossible to sell that war to the British public.