Germany Goes East first in 1914, British politics aspects only discussion

ATP

Well-known member
You forget that the Rhodes cabal was in turn being influenced by vampires. It would have been in their interest to buy Germany enough time to really put the screws to the Russians, whose territory contained the hags' power base.
Carrol Quigley,who proved that such cabal existed and ruled England from 1891 til 1945,was not sci-fi writer,but Historian.And from family which was al least avare about this conspiracy.
Dude was smart enough to not public anything till he died.

Conspiracy theories about secret cabals aside, the UK did have a longstanding policy if not wanting to allow any one Continental nation to become powerful enough to rule all of Europe, which probably did put the Kaiserreich in their crosshairs.
Conspiracy reality in this case.Author actually supported that cabal and was unhappy,that it failed.

But,even if they do not existed,targeting bigger country in Europe was their politic from at least 1700.
 

ATP

Well-known member
OK - now back on topic ... so, what happens in the UK in 1914 and '15?
Rhodes cabal either wait for germans to burn Kalisz or made story about them raping nuns.British people want blood,and they get it.But,with Belgium safe,BEF could be send to Turkey and open Dardaneles.I think,that they could do so.

Which get us another WW1 with Russians getting enough ammo - historically,in 1914 their ammo supply for artillery ended,and they could use one battery per dyvision from what they produce.
Now,it would not happen.
 

VictortheMonarch

Victor the Crusader
I feel as if they (the Tory's) would wish to enter the war, to preserve British dominance of Europe! But would be halted before they could interfere by those perfidious Irish upstarts! Yada yada England is forced out of the war by an Irish revolt that may or may not have been funded by Germany, this would give Germany the ability to, upon finishing Russia off, invade through Belgium.
 

strunkenwhite

Well-known member
Rhodes cabal either wait for germans to burn Kalisz or made story about them raping nuns.British people want blood,and they get it.But,with Belgium safe,BEF could be send to Turkey and open Dardaneles.I think,that they could do so.

Which get us another WW1 with Russians getting enough ammo - historically,in 1914 their ammo supply for artillery ended,and they could use one battery per dyvision from what they produce.
Now,it would not happen.
Would opening up the Dardanelles really have that much of an impact on Russia's supply of artillery shells? Also, and slightly to the thread topic, I only have very shallow knowledge of that time and place (WWI Bosporus) but I seem to recall that Britain didn't exactly cover itself in glory on this topic in OTL.
I feel as if they (the Tory's) would wish to enter the war, to preserve British dominance of Europe! But would be halted before they could interfere by those perfidious Irish upstarts! Yada yada England is forced out of the war by an Irish revolt that may or may not have been funded by Germany, this would give Germany the ability to, upon finishing Russia off, invade through Belgium.
But would Irish Home Rule be postponed as in OTL, or go forward? If it went forward why would there be enough resentment to produce a rebellion just as much-coveted political reforms were obtained? If postponed, why, when the justification for war is less obvious?
 
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Buba

A total creep
For Britain - or France - to be able to supply shells to Russia it must first have to have them itself.
Not before 1916. In 1915 everybody had a shell famine to some extent, the British one of the worst cases. Also, the shell famine is overblown by Russian commanders covering their asses for their failures. Shells are non sequitur.

As to Ireland - like I've said (maybe accurately), there should be further work on the details of the Irish Homerule Act, maybe leading to a compromise i.e. leaving anything between 4 and 9 counties out of it, temporarily or permamently. But I suppose that it could be suspended on the pretext on the war in Europe, seeing what a poisoned apple it was, with the Tories against it and the Liberals themselves divided.
 
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stevep

Well-known member
Conspiracy theories about secret cabals aside, the UK did have a longstanding policy if not wanting to allow any one Continental nation to become powerful enough to rule all of Europe, which probably did put the Kaiserreich in their crosshairs.

Especially given the attitude of the German leadership and their direct threats to British security. :)
 

stevep

Well-known member
Carrol Quigley,who proved that such cabal existed and ruled England from 1891 til 1945,was not sci-fi writer,but Historian.And from family which was al least avare about this conspiracy.
Dude was smart enough to not public anything till he died.


Conspiracy reality in this case.Author actually supported that cabal and was unhappy,that it failed.

But,even if they do not existed,targeting bigger country in Europe was their politic from at least 1700.

Interesting character but whether he was accurate or not we will never know. Seems unlikely. However if he was telling the truth then as his wiki article points out
a) The 'organisation' failed.
b) He doesn't mention anything about it prompting WWI
c) He clearly dates it from 1891. If your thinking of a secret society dating from at least 1700 seeking to rule the world then probably its the Roman Catholic church.;)
d) Yes it has been English/British policy - at least when the leadership wasn't totally stupid - since ~1500 to prevent any single power dominating the continent. Its also been the policy of every other power in Europe that wasn't aiming to be that hegemony power. That's simply common sense.
 

stevep

Well-known member
I feel as if they (the Tory's) would wish to enter the war, to preserve British dominance of Europe! But would be halted before they could interfere by those perfidious Irish upstarts! Yada yada England is forced out of the war by an Irish revolt that may or may not have been funded by Germany, this would give Germany the ability to, upon finishing Russia off, invade through Belgium.

Well if there is no invasion of Belgium and hence no British entry in 1914 then its 1916 before there has to be another general election. Unless something else happens to trigger British entry before then then the issue is likely to be a revolt by the Ulster 'unionists' against the application of the Irish Home Rule act. By 1916 that's likely to be done and dusted. If you still get something like the OTL coup attempt by Irish 'nationalist' extremists about that time its likely to be crushed by local 'Catholic' Irish forces. Without Britain being at war the guilty parties will be tried in a civilian court and executed. If Ireland is lucky then de Valera will have taken part and died in the attempt. - Which would safe his US citizenship meaning he avoided execution so removes totally his chances to screw over Ireland as he did OTL.

You might see the Tories come to power in 1916 as the Liberals had been in power for a decade and passed a lot of controversal legislation - the state pension, bills on union rights, tax reforms, Irish Home Rule. A lot would depend on what was happening in Europe at this point and whatever the government had done about the war.
 

stevep

Well-known member
Would opening up the Dardanelles really have that much of an impact on Russia's supply of artillery shells? Also, and slightly to the thread topic, I only have very shallow knowledge of that time and place (WWI Bosporus) but I seem to recall that Britain didn't exactly cover itself in glory on this topic in OTL.

But would Irish Home Rule be postponed as in OTL, or go forward? If it went forward why would there be enough resentment to produce a rebellion just as much-coveted political reforms were obtained? If postponed, why, when the justification for war is less obvious?

Well it would make supplying Russia a lot easier. OTL there were substantial stockpiles of munitions and weapons stuck in Archangel/Murmansk when the revolution occurred. Probably not a massive difference in terms of supplies however. However without Britain being involved I don't see it as being a likely operation. Doubt France would be able/willing to consider switching enough forces from the western front while their trying to batter against the German defences.

I think with the Liberals continuing in power that it would go ahead. As I;ve said in a separate post that could well prompt a unionists uprising but that's likely to be suppressed fairly quickly. Or its not impossible that you could see a peaceful settlement.
 

raharris1973

Well-known member
You forget that the Rhodes cabal was in turn being influenced by vampires. It would have been in their interest to buy Germany enough time to really put the screws to the Russians, whose territory contained the hags' power base.
I want to thank you for *not* neglecting the under appreciated undead lobby in British politics that @ATP seems to be missing while obsessing about Rhodes.
 

Skallagrim

Well-known member
Germany goes east first in 1914, not doing an offensive campaign in the west, and not violating Belgian and Luxemburg neutrality. Germany is hoping to avoid altogether, and at the very least significantly delay, any British participation in the war against Germany and its ally Austria-Hungary while these two Central Powers absolutely manhandle Serbia and settle the Balkans to their satisfaction and sharply defeat the Russians, at least throwing them out of Poland and Lithuania and buffering Austrian Galicia.

However what I would like to focus on in this thread (...) is British Cabinet and Parliamentary politics about handling the war in Europe, or entering it

If Germany commits to an East First strategy and, as per the OP, wants to avoid or at least delay British entry into the war, then we may safely assume that Germany will refrain from decaring war on France and Belgium on August 3rd. This is what prompted Britain to declare war the next day, after first issuing an ultimatum, and in this case, such declarations of war on Germany's part would obviously be counter-productive (and in fact completely insane).

The fact that Britain issued an ultimatum in OTL is telling. They didn't declare war right away, and didn't even tell Germany not to fight France, but ordered the Germans to back out of Belgium immediately. Certainly, there were many in British politics who wanted war with Germany; but without a good reason, it would be a damned hard sell. With the invasion of Belgium, Germany handed then the perfect justification.

If Germany goes East First, then the sequence of events is as follows:

First, Russia tells Austria that if it goes to war with Serbia, it'll be at war with Russia as well. This ensures that everybody knows there's going to be a larger war unless Austria backs down. Austria doesn't back down. Austria declares war on Serbia on July 28th, and in doing so, is from that moment on also at war with Russia. On August 1st, Germany declares war on Russia, honouring its alliance with Austria.

And... that's it. France may be assumed to join Russia's side very soon, but the French government was in disarray throughout July, and only declared war on the Central Powers on August 12th. Let's assume it still does so. At this point, France is escalating a shit-fight in Eastern Europe into a broader conflict. Its reasons for doing so are clear, but not automatically sympathetic to an outside observer. Looking at this, Britain isn't going to be very happy to just jump into the fray. Unlike in OTL, Germany can't be cast as the obvious aggressor. To a lot of people, it'll look like France spoiling for a re-match after the French defeat in the Franco-Prussian War. "Sounds like a French problem to me, mate."

Overall, Britain is going to be more sympathetic to France and Russia, but won't actually join the war over this. It's going to be more wait-and-see. And what is seen, soon enough, is pretty clear: France throwing its soldiers into the meat-grinder in return for little to no gains. That's not an incentive to join. (Meanwhile, France has two options: either try to break through in Elsaß-Lothringen, which is frankly hopeless, or pressure/invade Belgium in the hope that the German forces can be encircled, which is both doubtful and makes future British support far less likely.)

The British position, I'm pretty sure, will be to call for peace negotiations in London. Getting everybody to agree to peace with honour is really the only sensible move here.

Given the circumstances, it may even be possible to make it happen. Simple deal. France gets to keep the Francophone bits of Elsaß-Lothringen, which it has presumably occupied. Germany, having been able to dedicate more troops in the East, will have occupied the Polish heartland, and this is separated from Russia to become an independent country, where Germany can also dump all Polish dissidents from within its own borders. Russia has occupied Galicia-Lodomeria, and keeps it. Serbia gets screwed over, and the Austrians get to exact their vengeance there.

Everybody goes home by Christmas, and Britain never even gets entangled in the war. But nobody gets an overwhelming victory, and the balance of power doesn't change meaningfully. Britain has made no enemies, having actually facilitated a pretty reasonable outcome.

(Now, would everyone be amenable to that outcome? It seems to me that Germany and Austria would be, but Russia and France would object. The result of that is that Germany and Austria can just say "offer's on the table, yours to take". This makes them reasonable, and makes France and Russia the ones perpetuating the war. Which makes British intervention on their side very unlikely...)

In the end, by not fighting, Britain will be the biggest winner of all. And under these circumstances, that'll be far more clear than it was in OTL.
 

ATP

Well-known member
Would opening up the Dardanelles really have that much of an impact on Russia's supply of artillery shells? Also, and slightly to the thread topic, I only have very shallow knowledge of that time and place (WWI Bosporus) but I seem to recall that Britain didn't exactly cover itself in glory on this topic in OTL.

But would Irish Home Rule be postponed as in OTL, or go forward? If it went forward why would there be enough resentment to produce a rebellion just as much-coveted political reforms were obtained? If postponed, why, when the justification for war is less obvious?
If England send entire BEF there in 1914,they could win.

Interesting character but whether he was accurate or not we will never know. Seems unlikely. However if he was telling the truth then as his wiki article points out
a) The 'organisation' failed.
b) He doesn't mention anything about it prompting WWI
c) He clearly dates it from 1891. If your thinking of a secret society dating from at least 1700 seeking to rule the world then probably its the Roman Catholic church.;)
d) Yes it has been English/British policy - at least when the leadership wasn't totally stupid - since ~1500 to prevent any single power dominating the continent. Its also been the policy of every other power in Europe that wasn't aiming to be that hegemony power. That's simply common sense.

Book says the same - organization failed,and it controlled England from 1891 till 1945.
And author was sad becouse of it - he actually supported idea of british elites ruling over world.

Back to topic - book say also,that they controlled british press,and from 1905 made anti-german campaign warning about bad germans coming to invade England.In 1909 even organized hysteria about german airships landing in England for unknown reasons.
So,there would be war - especially,that germans on East Front really burned at least one polis town for german reasons.
So,it would be pretext to enter war.

I want to thank you for *not* neglecting the under appreciated undead lobby in British politics that @ATP seems to be missing while obsessing about Rhodes.
My friend, i am not obsessed over anytching.Carrol Quigley,not me,wrote book about Rhodes plot.In 1949.And fear to public it till he die in 1977 - probably for good reasons.
 

stevep

Well-known member
If England send entire BEF there in 1914,they could win.



Book says the same - organization failed,and it controlled England from 1891 till 1945.
And author was sad becouse of it - he actually supported idea of british elites ruling over world.

Back to topic - book say also,that they controlled british press,and from 1905 made anti-german campaign warning about bad germans coming to invade England.In 1909 even organized hysteria about german airships landing in England for unknown reasons.
So,there would be war - especially,that germans on East Front really burned at least one polis town for german reasons.
So,it would be pretext to enter war.


My friend, i am not obsessed over anytching.Carrol Quigley,not me,wrote book about Rhodes plot.In 1949.And fear to public it till he die in 1977 - probably for good reasons.

a) If the British had properly organised the army operations and/or had a bit more luck they could have won.

b) Will agree that the book matches the wiki article in disagreeing with what your claiming. The organisation was allegedly created in 1891 not centuries before and no mention of it causing WWI.

c) The prime reason for British concerns about Germany were two idiots named Wilhelm II and Tirpitz. Coupled with the fact the Germans forgot their own history. Their victories in the 1860's depended heavily on skilled diplomacy from Bismarck. The powerful army played a bit part but it wasn't enough on its own.

By 1914 both the military and the political leadership had forgotten that and made Germany a one trick pony, by committing to a military [including navy] that threatened everybody within reach. That meant that they built up the coalition that for all its flaws eventually defeated them.
 

stevep

Well-known member
If Britain doesn't join the war and it becomes Russia-France-Serbia v Germany-Austria-Turkey then its not going to be over by Christmas. Simply because few if any of the powers will be satisfied with minor losses by assorted powers and the Austrians digging their grave deeper by butchering their way through Serbia, which their highly unlikely to do by the end of the year.

France will want Alsace-Lorraine back and the initial heavy losses will probably increase that desire. It will also want Russia not too gravely weakened as a balance against future German attacks. That is the only thing that might make it consider a peace without 'regaining' territory this quickly and its unlikely Russia would be clearly in such a state by then.

Russia's stance will depend in part on its position, which will depend on how successfully it has reacted to the knowledge that Germany has switched to an east 1st strategy. The obvious approaches will be either heavily fortify the Polish salient or plan for a fighting withdrawal into the interior. Suspect the former would be more likely as it would [they hope] avoid giving up territory and the position does have the advantage of interior lines. Whether this works or not would depend on a lot of factors but defeat would prompt moving to the 2nd approach. They are extremely unlikely to try the OTL attacks on Austrian Galicia when they know the bulk of the German army is going to be jumping on them. If things go badly enough they might be willing to sacrifice Poland but things would have to do really badly to do that, at least this early in the war.

Austria, once it realises how costly the war will be might be willing to settle for a moderate negotiated peace. Possibly claiming its 'chastised' the Serbs without actually annexing any lands.

Germany will be the biggest single problem with any early peace. They want and feel they need a big victory to cripple the alliance their built up against them. Many in the German military were arguing that Russia would be too powerful to be successfully attacked by 1916. While this is obviously wrong in hindsight given the weaknesses of the Czarist regime that wasn't clear at the time. A limited victory which doesn't seriously cripple Russian strength would only push this flip point down the line a few years. Especially if the Russians have been half way competent which means while it would have been costly for Russia it wouldn't have been cheap for Germany either.

Furthermore I can't see Germany giving up any territory, especially not in Europe and they would probably still desire to annex Luxembourg. Remember that OTL despite losing all their African possessions their ideas for peace in 1917 and early 1918 were not only large annexations in both east and west and the crippling of their opponents but German colonies being restored and massively expanded in Africa.

As such I can't see the war ending early because no one and especially not Berlin would be happy with such a result. Its likely to go on at least 18-24 months and unless the Germans really overstretch themselves in the east - which they might - going to go increasingly in the CPs favour. Which will probably require British intervention at some stage to protect their own security. Whether that would be more or less costly than OTL would depend on a lot of things including how the balance of the war has gone, what other powers have joined the conflict and also what preparations for conflict Britain has made.

Other key issues for the war is what other nations join it. Italy might sit this one out or possibly even join the CPs even with their conflicts with Austria and Turkey - probably depending on how things go, especially in the east. Japan could join the F-R bloc as that would enable revenge for Wilhelm II's previous hostility and also clearing up German possessions in the Far East and western Pacific. Bulgaria is likely to be tempted into the CPs earlier which as OTL will speed up the Serbian collapse.
 

stevep

Well-known member
By the way of course we are diverging considerably from the actual OP which as reharris1973 asked was discussion of British political development in such a scenario.
 

ATP

Well-known member
a) If the British had properly organised the army operations and/or had a bit more luck they could have won.

b) Will agree that the book matches the wiki article in disagreeing with what your claiming. The organisation was allegedly created in 1891 not centuries before and no mention of it causing WWI.

c) The prime reason for British concerns about Germany were two idiots named Wilhelm II and Tirpitz. Coupled with the fact the Germans forgot their own history. Their victories in the 1860's depended heavily on skilled diplomacy from Bismarck. The powerful army played a bit part but it wasn't enough on its own.

By 1914 both the military and the political leadership had forgotten that and made Germany a one trick pony, by committing to a military [including navy] that threatened everybody within reach. That meant that they built up the coalition that for all its flaws eventually defeated them.
1.Agree
2.Book say,that our cabal first/1905-1914/ did everytching they could to provoke war with germany,and the same cabal,after 1919,till 1939 did everytching they could to made germans strong again,and destroy Austria,Czech and Poland states.
Becouse big plan.
Or,to be precise,Kaiser germany must be crushed,but germany without Kaiser must be supported,even with Hitler.
3.Agree about Kaiser stupidity,and agree that Bismarck win 1866-1871 wars for them.
But,germans just come back to old prussian tradition from 7th Y war - start war with stronger opponents and wait for miracle.It happened then,so why not again?
 

VictortheMonarch

Victor the Crusader
Given the circumstances, it may even be possible to make it happen. Simple deal. France gets to keep the Francophone bits of Elsaß-Lothringen, which it has presumably occupied. Germany, having been able to dedicate more troops in the East, will have occupied the Polish heartland, and this is separated from Russia to become an independent country, where Germany can also dump all Polish dissidents from within its own borders. Russia has occupied Galicia-Lodomeria, and keeps it. Serbia gets screwed over, and the Austrians get to exact their vengeance there.

Everybody goes home by Christmas, and Britain never even gets entangled in the war. But nobody gets an overwhelming victory, and the balance of power doesn't change meaningfully. Britain has made no enemies, having actually facilitated a pretty reasonable outcome.

In the end, by not fighting, Britain will be the biggest winner of all. And under these circumstances, that'll be far more clear than it was in OTL.
So The map would change to be more like thus?
War-over-1915.png
 

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