Election 2020 Election 2020: It's (almost) over! (maybe...possibly...ahh who are we kidding, it's 2020!)

[Abhorsen]

Because they don't care, because they're afraid, because what they're allowed to see isn't enough to piece together the full picture; take your pick.

No, that doesn't work. The problem with a conspiracy is that only one person needs to break the silence, and no one is.

On top of that, since Dominion sued? They basically asked all the people they sued to look at all of Dominions code looking for a problem (it's called discovery). And no, they won't be able to hide code, as they will have used version control and that's not something you can just magic away evidence from easily. They'd be absolutely fucked if this was true, not going on a defamation suing binge. Dominion is completely innocent in this.

@Abhorsen , eh, I see no reason for your high hope in the incorruptibility of the system. Its well known JFK generated 10,000 of thousands of outright false votes out of the Chicago area in the 1960 election. That eventually resulted in 3 convictions 2 years later.

No, what I'm saying is that Dominion trying to turn the election through illegal votes simply won't work, for a vast number of reasons, mostly concerning the vast number of people that have access to the machine's code, along with the individualized input files that every district needs. It's simply impossible that Dominion could have done this. Someone would say something.

Like if they tried, Donald Trump would be president right now because the hack would have been noticed, there'd be dominion employees that wouldn't shut up about how they were the first to notice the problem, but the company tried to silence them, executives desperate to avoid prosecution. There's no way for a company to control information that well because there are too many people looking at the code.

And this is the first hurdle any conspiracy theory (and I mean that in the literal definition, a theory of multiple people conspiring) must pass: why did no one squeal? Or more game theoretical, why did no one's incentive to defect outweigh their incentive to cooperate. In things like government, high up CEOs doing cartels, etc, the incentive to cooperate is much higher, as they are ideologically committed or stand to personally make money.

But in most companies, they aren't monopolitical profit-sharing things. There's almost always someone willing to defect for money, fame, fear of arrest, or ideology. Dominion is clearly not the problem.

 

[Megadeath]

-Snip-
If? The fact that widespread cheating did happen is irrefutable.

And yet, it was refuted. In court, repeatedly.

 

[Terthna]

No, that doesn't work. The problem with a conspiracy is that only one person needs to break the silence, and no one is.

On top of that, since Dominion sued? They basically asked all the people they sued to look at all of Dominions code looking for a problem (it's called discovery). And no, they won't be able to hide code, as they will have used version control and that's not something you can just magic away evidence from easily. They'd be absolutely fucked if this was true, not going on a defamation suing binge. Dominion is completely innocent in this.


No, what I'm saying is that Dominion trying to turn the election through illegal votes simply won't work, for a vast number of reasons, mostly concerning the vast number of people that have access to the machine's code, along with the individualized input files that every district needs. It's simply impossible that Dominion could have done this. Like if they tried, Donald Trump would be president right now because the hack would have been noticed, there'd be dominion employees that wouldn't shut up about how they were the first to notice the problem, but the company tried to silence them, executives desperate to avoid prosecution. There's no way for a company to control information that well because there are too many people looking at the code.

No one broke the silence on Project MKUltra either, and that killed people; so to say that it's outright impossible is simply intellectually dishonest. You can argue it's unlikely or improbable; but not impossible. Remember; people thought the Dems cheating their way to victory in this election was impossible too, and yet they managed it.

That said, I'll certainly give you that cheating via the Dominion voting software probably isn't what got them the win, even if it did occur; all those ballots that appeared magically overnight played a much larger role.

 

[LordSunhawk]

OK...

I was a poll worker in Maricopa County.

I personally witnessed the following -

County Officials facilitating the violation of election integrity and audit laws by failing to provide sufficient ballot box seals, instructing poll workers not to make use of ballot box seals, transporting ballots in non-sealed containers, and transporting ballots without front end audit counts.

Private contractors badged as employees of both the County and Dominion entering polling places and inserting USB drives into the precinct-based tabulators on election day without any audit or seal. Poll workers were instructed not to question or record their actions by County Officials.

County Officials deliberately falsifying audit records, or directing the falsification of same, and threatening front line poll workers if they failed to comply with said directions to falsify audit records.

Unsecure handling of ballots, results cartridges, and audit materials in such a way as to make it impossible to certify a clean election without fraudulent declarations. Bags of unsecured and unsealed ballots were intermingled with sealed bags, the seals were then broken, thus eliminating any possibility of separating 'clean' from potentially fraudulent ballots.

Deliberate obfuscation of the differences between mail in and provisional ballots, with both being in identical envelopes with identical coding, again making it impossible to properly determine if a given ballot is mail-in (and thus simply requires basic signature verification) or provisional (and thus requires more in depth verification and processing).

To this day Maricopa County is deliberately in violation of state law by preventing a forensic audit of the tabulation equipment, has deliberately spoliated evidence, and has threatened poll workers who spoke out about the complete dog's breakfast the election was.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

No one broke the silence on Project MKUltra either,

On the contrary, the silence *was* broken on MKUltra; that's what led to the New York Times publishing allegations that were detailed and specific enough to trigger dual investigations by Congress and the executive branch, and that was even after the CIA purged the records.

 

[Terthna]

OK...

I was a poll worker in Maricopa County.

I personally witnessed the following -

County Officials facilitating the violation of election integrity and audit laws by failing to provide sufficient ballot box seals, instructing poll workers not to make use of ballot box seals, transporting ballots in non-sealed containers, and transporting ballots without front end audit counts.

Private contractors badged as employees of both the County and Dominion entering polling places and inserting USB drives into the precinct-based tabulators on election day without any audit or seal. Poll workers were instructed not to question or record their actions by County Officials.

County Officials deliberately falsifying audit records, or directing the falsification of same, and threatening front line poll workers if they failed to comply with said directions to falsify audit records.

Unsecure handling of ballots, results cartridges, and audit materials in such a way as to make it impossible to certify a clean election without fraudulent declarations. Bags of unsecured and unsealed ballots were intermingled with sealed bags, the seals were then broken, thus eliminating any possibility of separating 'clean' from potentially fraudulent ballots.

Deliberate obfuscation of the differences between mail in and provisional ballots, with both being in identical envelopes with identical coding, again making it impossible to properly determine if a given ballot is mail-in (and thus simply requires basic signature verification) or provisional (and thus requires more in depth verification and processing).

To this day Maricopa County is deliberately in violation of state law by preventing a forensic audit of the tabulation equipment, has deliberately spoliated evidence, and has threatened poll workers who spoke out about the complete dog's breakfast the election was.

And yet there are people who will insist that none of that actually happened; how depressing is that?

 

[JagerIV]

Yeah, people put way, way too high of a barrier to "conspiracy", if it even is a conspiracy. In the 1960s Chicago example, everyone knew people had cheated, it just was no one could do anything about it. People in bars talked about selling their votes if you asked them about it. The person who fixed LBJ's election to senate explained the process when an author for biography on LBJ's life came by to ask about it.

Your also misrepresenting how the lawsuits worked. They're virtually zero chance American Thinker was shown the code. They were told to apologize, or be sued.

And as someone who studied to be an auditor, the idea that conspiracies in public businesses is some sort of great feat is, well, laughable. To highlight a famous example, Bernie Madoff ran a barely disguised fraud fund for at least 20 years before regulators caught up with him. The evidence was plain and took trivial investigation to uncover, that he had an almost certainly fraudulent business was basically an open secret in the industry, and he was informed on multiple times, yet he was not actually caught until potentially 30-40 years into his operations.

In 1999, financial analyst Harry Markopolos had informed the SEC that he believed it was legally and mathematically impossible to achieve the gains Madoff claimed to deliver. According to Markopolos, it took him four minutes to conclude that Madoff's numbers did not add up, and another minute to suspect they were fraudulent.[75]

After four hours of failed attempts to replicate Madoff's numbers, Markopolos believed he had mathematically proven Madoff was a fraud.[76] He was ignored by the SEC's Boston office in 2000 and 2001, as well as by Meaghan Cheung at the SEC's New York office in 2005 and 2007 when he presented further evidence. He has since co-authored a book with Gaytri Kachroo (the leader of his legal team) titled No One Would Listen. The book details the frustrating efforts he and his legal team made over a ten-year period to alert the government, the industry, and the press about Madoff's fraud.[75]

Although Madoff's wealth management business ultimately grew into a multibillion-dollar operation, none of the major derivatives firms traded with him because they did not believe his numbers were real. None of the major Wall Street firms invested with him, and several high-ranking executives at those firms suspected his operations and claims were not legitimate.[76] Others contended it was inconceivable that the growing volume of Madoff's accounts could be competently and legitimately serviced by his documented accounting/auditing firm, a three-person firm with only one active accountant.[77]

The Central Bank of Ireland failed to spot Madoff's gigantic fraud when he started using Irish funds and had to supply large amounts of information, which would have been enough to enable Irish regulators to uncover the fraud much earlier than late 2008 when he was finally arrested in New York.[78][79][80]

The Federal Bureau of Investigation report and federal prosecutors' complaint says that during the first week of December 2008, Madoff confided to a senior employee, identified by Bloomberg News as one of his sons, that he said he was struggling to meet $7 billion in redemptions.[15] For years, Madoff had simply deposited investors' money in his business account at JPMorgan Chase and withdrew money from that account when they requested redemptions. He had scraped together just enough money to make a redemption payment on November 19. However, despite cash infusions from several longtime investors, by the week after Thanksgiving it was apparent that there was not enough money to even begin to meet the remaining requests. His Chase account had over $5.5 billion in mid-2008, but by late November was down to $234 million, a fraction of the outstanding redemptions. On December 3, he told longtime assistant Frank DiPascali, who had overseen the fraudulent advisory business, that he was finished. On December 9, he told his brother about the fraud.[59][21]

What did him in in the end was literally running out of money to keep the Ponzi scheme going, and losing hope.

Now, you might say that that was a small man operation. True. Instead, I point you to the Equity Funding Corporation:

The fraud began in 1964 when EFCA was bumping up against a deadline to complete and issue its annual report. The company's new mainframe computer couldn't produce the needed numbers in time and Stanley Goldblum, the CEO of the company, ordered fictitious accounting entries made to the company's financial statements to meet the deadline.2

Goldblum and other employees of EFCA continued this fraud by creating phony life insurance policies to produce revenue to back up these earlier false entries. The company then reinsured these fake policies with a number of other insurers and even faked the deaths of some of these nonexistent individuals.1

The fraud eventually reached mammoth-sized proportions, with tens of thousands of phony insurance policies and nearly $2 billion in nonexistent revenues over a multi-year period.1 One shocking component was the number of employees that participated. Prosecutors successfully charged 22 individuals,3 but dozens of others at the company had knowledge of the fraud.4

In 1973, a disgruntled ex-employee, who had been fired, reported the scheme to Ray Dirks, a Wall Street analyst who covered the insurance industry.5 Dirks did his own research and then discussed the company with institutional investors, many of whom sold the stock prior to the fraud becoming public knowledge.6

The case led to the establishment of a new legal precedent regarding insider trading. After the fraud became public, the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) censured Dirks for aiding and abetting violations of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934 and Rule 10b-5, which prohibits insider trading. Dirks fought the censure through several appeals, all the way up to the Supreme Court in 1983. The court ruled in his favor and said that no violation occurred because Dirks had no fiduciary duty to the shareholders of EFCA and did not misappropriate or illegally obtain the information.6

The fraud at EFCA is considered by some to be the first computer-based fraud, as the creation of phony documents needed to back up the phony policies became so cumbersome that the company started using computers to automate the deception

That fraud was carried out by something approaching a 100 people, and while it was eventually exposed by a blaber, the person blabbed nearly 10 years into the scheme over being fired, and notably did not blab to the police, but a wall street journalist, who used that information to carry out insider trading. And also note how computers were used to make the fraud easier to carry out.

The above and 4 other great frauds, such as the Crazy Eddie fraud which went on for 18 years and involved nearly all employees (some of the fraud involved paying employees under the table to avoid payroll taxes and lower listed wage expenses), or the Poyais fraud, which involved selling colonization rights to a fake country, which ended up sending several shiploads of colonists to a random island in the Caribean to starve to death are also notable.

Also notable is that almost all of these frauds are not discovered because of some investigation, but because they run up against something real that means the fraud can't continue: Madoff kept his ponzi scheme going pretty till it literally ran out of money. Poyais could sell endless interest in the fake country until someone had to go to the fake country.

With voting, no such mechanism exists: the votes are all there is: there is no "running out of votes" forcing one to give up the fraud. And the fraud doesn't even have to be kept going all that long. Most of the time, if it takes more than 1 month of investigation to uncover the fraud, then in outcome a fraud and a legitimate vote have the same outcome.

There are very few penalties to fraud, and it is very easy to carry out if its not actively hunted, especially in voting where there's no material difference between a fraudulent and non-fraudulent election, and you can have everyone know something happened and nothing come of it from regulators, who are the only one's who can do anything.

 

[Doomsought]

This is why election reform as a platform is important. It doesn't just prevent fraud by putting up new barriers, all of the hooting and hollering lets the fraudsters know the jig is up and spooks them back into the shadows.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

part of me says I should be laughing, but I don't find it funny.

 

[What's the sitch?]

The thing is, all that that woman will get from that person telling her that is that they are misogynist and hate women or something along those lines. Or that Russia is somehow involved.

But yeah..... so much.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

This is why election reform as a platform is important. It doesn't just prevent fraud by putting up new barriers, all of the hooting and hollering lets the fraudsters know the jig is up and spooks them back into the shadows.

It's a good platform, regardless of fraud. America's system is hopelessly antiquated and messy (federalising national elections was not a good idea), so you could make a very good argument for reform. I'd personally try to take a leaf out of the European systems as, for all their faults, Western European countries do not get fraud on a large scale in their elections and are vastly more efficient.

 

[Rocinante]

This is why election reform as a platform is important. It doesn't just prevent fraud by putting up new barriers, all of the hooting and hollering lets the fraudsters know the jig is up and spooks them back into the shadows.

I'm going to shout it for the next four years.

it is the single most important issue we are facing.

NOTHING else even matters, until we can reform and repair our election system.

 

[Captain X]

It's a good platform, regardless of fraud. America's system is hopelessly antiquated and messy (federalising national elections was not a good idea), so you could make a very good argument for reform. I'd personally try to take a leaf out of the European systems as, for all their faults, Western European countries do not get fraud on a large scale in their elections and are vastly more efficient.

Could you elaborate a bit on this? I'm kind of curious about it.

 

[Captain X]

frankly if you really think it's over I'd suggest you stop discussing it. Not trying to be a troll or a sperg, but I think part of the problem was us all sitting around complaining about the establishment culture and not doing anything to fight them, Social media has become our 8 min of hate....except it goes on 24/7. it feeds into a toxic loop and it never gets anything done. there needs to be less talk and more action otherwise let's just drop the discussion and try to find contentment in the situation we are in. It'd save us the headache and the heartache.

A lot of this comes from no one really offering anything up as a suggestion for how to actually go about "fighting the establishment." What certainly seems to be the case is that the other side is effectively in charge of setting the rules, which they are free to break, and which make any way of offering up any real counter doomed to failure. Meanwhile talk of just breaking the rules ourselves gets us labeled as "terrorists" and "insurrectionists" and the like. So what "action(s)" do we take?

 

[Lord Sovereign]

Could you elaborate a bit on this? I'm kind of curious about it.

Well European systems tend to use a more "unified" method of doing it, observed by a hopefully impartial body (in the UK's case, it is the Electoral Commission). The fact that the US doesn't have an Electoral Commission just blows my mind.

On another note, I was watching a stream that really pissed me off today. It was all about the election and its aftermath, especially Biden's inauguration. One of them on there essentially said "we can mark this as the day the United States ended."

The blackpill has always been too bitter to me, but for the love of God. Trumpers, you've lost a battle. The enemy took the field through trickery and dissension in your ranks, but you still have an army. The topic of conversation should be regroup and counterattack. Your big issue in that battle was your officer corps being a bit pozzed, which allowed your enemy to get one over on you. That can be solved by political fragging. Trump's policies were popular and all you need do, whilst making a fair amount of noise about electoral reform, is build on them. Then, one day, you will meet the enemy in battle again and defeat them this time.

Many important battles for the British Right were fought and lost before I was born. Yet here I am. Besides, as a patriot, not giving up on my country is sort of in the job description.

 

[Cherico]

A lot of this comes from no one really offering anything up as a suggestion for how to actually go about "fighting the establishment." What certainly seems to be the case is that the other side is effectively in charge of setting the rules, which they are free to break, and which make any way of offering up any real counter doomed to failure. Meanwhile talk of just breaking the rules ourselves gets us labeled as "terrorists" and "insurrectionists" and the like. So what "action(s)" do we take?

Ive actually read about what happens when an establishment is in charge of setting the rules and freely breaks them. The establishment enjoys a period of power yes but they sow the seeds of their own destruction by doing so.

Its sad how many ruling classes simply do not understand that the rules protect them too and having destroyed all the rules in their quest for power are in turn destroyed by the forces they unleashed onto others.

 

[Terthna]

Ive actually read about what happens when an establishment is in charge of setting the rules and freely breaks them. The establishment enjoys a period of power yes but they sow the seeds of their own destruction by doing so.

Its sad how many ruling classes simply do not understand that the rules protect them too and having destroyed all the rules in their quest for power are in turn destroyed by the forces they unleashed onto others.

They're like a character out of Yugioh, who's figured out how to cheat at the titular card game to the point where they can never lose. But what happens if everyone else decides to just not play the game anymore, and settle their differences using other means?

 

[Abhorsen]

No one broke the silence on Project MKUltra either, and that killed people; so to say that it's outright impossible is simply intellectually dishonest. You can argue it's unlikely or improbable; but not impossible. Remember; people thought the Dems cheating their way to victory in this election was impossible too, and yet they managed it.

I'm not saying its impossible for a conspiracy theory to work, but that it's impossible for this one (Dominion fucking with its voting machines) to work.

There's a huge difference between MKUltra keeping a secret and Dominion, as I noted in my post. The MKUltra people were almost all government people, who are very good at keeping secrets, and ideologically committed to keeping secrets. On top of this, the people who weren't government were kept very small (a couple of people per university).

Now compare this with Dominion machines. Deceit at the company level is nearly impossible with code, as too many people looking at it have not enough of an incentive to keep the secrecy around.

And there's still the fact that Dominion decided to risk discovery in a defamation lawsuit (which is basically them going "I dare you to look at everything I did everywhere and find evidence of this")

 

[LordSunhawk]

I'm not saying its impossible for a conspiracy theory to work, but that it's impossible for this one (Dominion fucking with its voting machines) to work.

There's a huge difference between MKUltra keeping a secret and Dominion, as I noted in my post. The MKUltra people were almost all government people, who are very good at keeping secrets, and ideologically committed to keeping secrets. On top of this, the people who weren't government were kept very small (a couple of people per university).

Now compare this with Dominion machines. Deceit at the company level is nearly impossible with code, as too many people looking at it have not enough of an incentive to keep the secrecy around.

And there's still the fact that Dominion decided to risk discovery in a defamation lawsuit (which is basically them going "I dare you to look at everything I did everywhere and find evidence of this")

You do realize that Dominion themselves advertised the very functionality that was used for manipulating the vote, yes? There's no 'hiding things in the code', there are things in the code that are there from the start, intended for use in HOA elections where they are completely legal, and easily configured to run 'on the down low' on any election, if you set it so in the configuration file.

And Dominion's own training material includes how to do precisely that. Moreover, the software explicitly lacks any audit trail functionality to determine what the precise configuration state of the system was at any given point (was a big selling point for California).

Several statements given recently by Dominion directly contradict their own training materials and presentations given in 2019 by the same people making those statements. Dominion tabulation machines are designed to connect to wifi networks, they are designed to work in a client-server environment, they can be configured either remotely through wifi or via USB drives, with no audit trail whatsoever on the configuration.

I will note that I have directly worked with the software. Our ballot on demand printers? They were connected to laptops that precinct poll workers were explicitly told not to look at, but which the badged Dominion workers fiddled with constantly. During our initial setup process they ran test prints off of the BoD printers which we had to manually spoil, said test prints were pre-voted ballots... and I will note that the Dominion workers tried to get all of the actual poll workers to leave the precinct before they did the test prints.

 

[JagerIV]

Yeah, you seem to be suggesting things that happened in broad daylight, which were advertised features, didnt happen and were impossible.

I have no idea where you got this idea computer files cant be changed, in a system designed to be changed.

You seem to be replacing what you think the ideal world would be with what the actual reality is.

Edit: like, what's your argument for why, in known corrupt cultures that were talking about, with government contractors being famous for their corruption and graft (from the $200 hammer and up) that a government contracto couldnt possibly be a corupt crony?