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Business & Finance Economic Fallout: Pandemic, Brandon, Money Printer Go Brr, Ukraine.

Bacle

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And I've been trying to make you realize that you're missing the forest for the trees. You're obsessed with Ukraine winning the war against Russia; so much so that you don't give a shit about the consequences, and think that because I'm pointing them out and arguing we should try to minimize them means I'm taking Russia's against you. I hate what Russia is doing in Ukraine too; the difference between you and me is that I'm actually interested in stopping them, as opposed to simply getting revenge. Notice how I haven't actually been arguing we should stop sending them aid, even as I've questioned if they even need it? All I've been saying is that, if we're going to give it to them anyways, then there has to be accountability to ensure it's actually be used as intended. Otherwise, it's little more than virtue signaling.
And if you had paid more attention to the invasion thread, you'd have seen that the stuff we are giving Ukraine is being used effectively, some of it doing the job it was originally designed for (knocking out Soviet equipment).

You don't get to bleat about trying to have the moral high ground on wanting accountability, when you don't even really pay attention to what is actually happening on the ground in the first place.

And the 'consequences' of helping Ukraine retain their sovereignty are much better than the opposite, no matter how much you want to make US support hinge on fighting corruption more than being combat effective against the Russians.
 

Terthna

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It's all inconsequential with those at the top running things. With FTX as one example they can even con you into donating for their own election fund.
Fair enough; I'm just sick of this whole conflict sucking the intelligence out of otherwise reasonable people, and turning them into NPCs virtue signaling how much they hate Russia. Not that they don't deserve the hate, but it's obvious hating them is the only thing they care about.
 

Arch Dornan

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Fair enough; I'm just sick of this whole conflict sucking the intelligence out of otherwise reasonable people, and turning them into NPCs virtue signaling how much they hate Russia. Not that they don't deserve the hate, but it's obvious hating them is the only thing they care about.
It's inevitable. Look at my own posts of the past and you'll see my own pet peeves to be just as morally fallacious.

I only recognise the problem because the ones steering the wheel are just plain incompetents and degenerates unwilling to look towards the interest of the public before grifting for a cause they'll shift the burden onto the public into serfdom despite barely making ends meet.
 

Captain X

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I'm not saying we should;
You most certainly are, simply because that is the reality of what would happen. You seem to think Russia should be left to conquer whatever it can.

I'm just saying you're a liar when you say things like "it's not like supporting Ukraine AND wanting transparency and accountability are mutually exclusive things", because that's not actually what you believe.
I said exactly what I meant, which is that I would like transparency, but for me this issue of corruption is not enough for me to say we should end support of Ukraine and leave them at the mercy of Russia.
 

Terthna

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And if you had paid more attention to the invasion thread, you'd have seen that the stuff we are giving Ukraine is being used effectively, some of it doing the job it was originally designed for (knocking out Soviet equipment).

You don't get to bleat about trying to have the moral high ground on wanting accountability, when you don't even really pay attention to what is actually happening on the ground in the first place.

And the 'consequences' of helping Ukraine retain their sovereignty are much better than the opposite, no matter how much you want to make US support hinge on fighting corruption more than being combat effective against the Russians.
And that's fine; you'll note I've not even mentioned the weapons and equipment we've been giving them. Just the money. Particularly, the twenty billion dollars that went missing.

What do you even think accountability would cost, exactly? It's shouldn't be that hard to keep track of where our money goes; certainly not enough to lose Ukraine the war. If anything, it should make it easier for them to win; which means less dead Ukrainian civilians.
 

Agent23

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I just love it how the small, clueless minority of chest-pumping chickenhawks is pushing the USA into even bigger economic messes and stupid adventurism in countries they could not find on a map and that act as a conduit of money back to the US establishmnet and MIC while letting the leftards flood their country with more illegal migrants, let the establishmnet keep the same corrupt, grifting elites in power, and massively delegitimize the silent majority of right and centrist voters with their chickenhawkery.
Then, valid valid criticism is thrown at them they ree and call you a Putin shill.

I hate using marxist terms, but those people stink like the proverbial lumpenelectorat.

I wonder to which country they are more patriotic to, Ukraine or their own.

Frankly, all of these idiots, in every single western and EU country should be forced to register as foreign agents at minimum and be considered treasonous in the best case scenario.
 

Bacle

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And that's fine; you'll note I've not even mentioned the weapons and equipment we've been giving them. Just the money. Particularly, the twenty billion dollars that went missing.

What do you even think accountability would cost, exactly? It's shouldn't be that hard to keep track of where our money goes; certainly not enough to lose Ukraine the war. If anything, it should make it easier for them to win; which means less dead Ukrainian civilians.
I want accountability, but not at the cost of combat effectiveness, or making removing corruption completely be the hinge on which aid is hung.

Then again, you already admitted you do not view the current Ukrainian gov as legit, and do not think Ukraine has a right to exist.

So really, in your view, it is not just the 20 billion that is the issue. That's just a cover for your continued kneejerk dislike of Zelenski and DC.

The petty spite that caused you to stop listening to people in the invasion thread, just because they insulted your ignorance and kneejerk reactions, and your posts here, show you do not give one single fuck about actually helping Ukraine, you are just looking for reasons to cut aid and grasping onto any one you can.
 

Typhonis

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You really want a nice bit of unaccountable money?

In 2019 the Pentagon made an accounting adjustment to the tune of $23 TRILLION dollars

The Pentagon’s $35 Trillion Accounting Black Hole (yahoo.com)

Does anyone know where THAT money went and why Congress seems to be quiet about Fiscal responsibility in the Pentagon?
 

Arch Dornan

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I just love it how the small, clueless minority of chest-pumping chickenhawks is pushing the USA into even bigger economic messes and stupid adventurism in countries they could not find on a map and that act as a conduit of money back to the US establishmnet and MIC while letting the leftards flood their country with more illegal migrants, let the establishmnet keep the same corrupt, grifting elites in power, and massively delegitimize the silent majority of right and centrist voters with their chickenhawkery.
Then, valid valid criticism is thrown at them they ree and call you a Putin shill.

I hate using marxist terms, but those people stink like the proverbial lumpenelectorat.

I wonder to which country they are more patriotic to, Ukraine or their own.

Frankly, all of these idiots, in every single western and EU country should be forced to register as foreign agents at minimum and be considered treasonous in the best case scenario.
It's why I say it's inconsequential when the people at the top are not being team players for this crisis.

The European industries are moving to the US while they're being sold expensive LNG to replace Russian gas. That's not going to increase support for Ukraine at all when the price for doing so is to be bilked for their new expensive gas and their industries moving away.
 

Agent23

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It's why I say it's inconsequential when the people at the top are not being team players for this crisis.

The European industries are moving to the US while they're being sold expensive LNG to replace Russian gas. That's not going to increase support for Ukraine at all when the price for doing so is to be bilked for their new expensive gas and their industries moving away.
Yup, all the green politicians in Germany, that idiot von der Lainaren and her Spanish lapdog Borel, they all need to be dragged out and shot for treason. :D
 

Arch Dornan

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Yup, all the green politicians in Germany, that idiot von der Lainaren and her Spanish lapdog Borel, they all need to be dragged out and shot for treason. :D
They got taken for a ride or maybe they're aware but assured they have a place of refuge to retire to after the damage is done.
 

Agent23

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They got taken for a ride or maybe they're aware but assured they have a place of refuge to retire to after the damage is done.
Then whatever replaces them should go full on MOSAD on their asses.

Also, if anything, kamikaze drones like the Lancet are cheap and probably getting cheaper.

https://news.yahoo.com/russia-factory-activity-grows-fastest-063112213.html


Russian factory activity grows at fastest pace in 6 years, meanwhile, US industry is laying off people and the US PMI is not doing so good.
How is that Sticking it to Putin going.

I look forward to listening to a lot of cowardly chickenhawks and backseat warriors whining about losing their jobs.
 

Arch Dornan

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Then whatever replaces them should go full on MOSAD on their asses.
I don't know what'll really happen to them.

Russian factory activity grows at fastest pace in 6 years, meanwhile, US industry is laying off people and the US PMI is not doing so good.
It'll change when European industry is absorbed into US industry but they really need to ditch the green new deal to really get the economy jumpstarted.
 

Sobek

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So, it's happening. The EU, G7 and Australia have agreed to implement a price cap on Russian oil at 60US$.

Now Russian oil isn't that fine light blend like Arabian oil, but it is still not 60 per barrel in this economy. The average barrel price atm is 80, meaning this cap is 25% below average and even compared to other similar blends its still a bit low.

Price controls do not work. Thry never have. Russia might be willing to tolerate selling at these prices for a little while given the lower oil quality but they won't just take it, they WILL push the people willing to pay market price like Pakistan and India and China and Brazil to the top of the list and ignore the Euros. And of course they might just turn off the gas.
 

Marduk

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So, it's happening. The EU, G7 and Australia have agreed to implement a price cap on Russian oil at 60US$.

Now Russian oil isn't that fine light blend like Arabian oil, but it is still not 60 per barrel in this economy. The average barrel price atm is 80, meaning this cap is 25% below average and even compared to other similar blends its still a bit low.

Price controls do not work. Thry never have. Russia might be willing to tolerate selling at these prices for a little while given the lower oil quality but they won't just take it, they WILL push the people willing to pay market price like Pakistan and India and China and Brazil to the top of the list and ignore the Euros. And of course they might just turn off the gas.
Well, in this case the idea is to make it not work, more or less. It's a compromise between doing nothing and a full ban under threat of secondary sanctions against those who buy it. Which is also the threat for violating this rule by the way. It's basically an attempt to create an anti-OPEC, a buyer's cartel aimed at one particular seller... for now.
Another feature is the perverse incentive it creates for the likes of India and Pakistan - after all, India was already noted for buying Russian oil at unusual quantities, but at a big discount. Now they have an excuse to request such a discount permanently.
After all, while a ban on Russian oil may be something costly for the likes of India or China, buying discounted oil is even better than buying it normally from their self-interested perspective.
Overall, i'm not sure that this specific kind of sanction was ever tried on a large scale.
 

Sobek

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I don't even think the sanction is supposed to do anything other than SOUND like it does something. It's quite hard to find correct information but apparently the average price of the Russia type of oil is on the ballpark of 60US$ the barrel so for all intents and purposes Russia should barely feel it. Of course that is assuming that demand doesn't suddenly pick up or that the price doesnt flucturate at all but we will see.
 

Agent23

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Well, in this case the idea is to make it not work, more or less. It's a compromise between doing nothing and a full ban under threat of secondary sanctions against those who buy it. Which is also the threat for violating this rule by the way. It's basically an attempt to create an anti-OPEC, a buyer's cartel aimed at one particular seller... for now.
Another feature is the perverse incentive it creates for the likes of India and Pakistan - after all, India was already noted for buying Russian oil at unusual quantities, but at a big discount. Now they have an excuse to request such a discount permanently.
After all, while a ban on Russian oil may be something costly for the likes of India or China, buying discounted oil is even better than buying it normally from their self-interested perspective.
Overall, i'm not sure that this specific kind of sanction was ever tried on a large scale.
Ah, yes, a buyer that needs food trying to dictate to the seller how much that food will be sold for because he dislikes the seller and the seller is, in the eyes of the buyer at least, "evil", "immoral" take your pick of bullshit excuses.

Wanna bet what happens next, ah, yes, the seller tells the would be buyer to take their business somewhere else.

This is retarded idiocy that only morons would push.

Russia has more than enough potential buyers that will put cheaper energy and the competitive advantages that brings above the west's stupid virtue signalling and Russia Derangement Syndrome, everyone outside of the West is probably ROFLing at the the copium and self-righteous stupidity.

I don't even think the sanction is supposed to do anything other than SOUND like it does something. It's quite hard to find correct information but apparently the average price of the Russia type of oil is on the ballpark of 60US$ the barrel so for all intents and purposes Russia should barely feel it. Of course that is assuming that demand doesn't suddenly pick up or that the price doesnt flucturate at all but we will see.
The theory is that if/when china reopens the demand will skyrocket, we also have the huge problem of the various western countries buying into the green/ESG bullshit and massively under investing in capacity.
 

Marduk

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Ah, yes, a buyer that needs food trying to dictate to the seller how much that food will be sold for because he dislikes the seller and the seller is, in the eyes of the buyer at least, "evil", "immoral" take your pick of bullshit excuses.
Spare the dramatic for someone who cares. You know it's not about that, i know it's not about that, we don't need to bullshit ourselves.
Happens any time people haggle at a food market by the way.
Wanna bet what happens next, ah, yes, the seller tells the would be buyer to take their business somewhere else.
Find me one country that likes to buy oil for more rather than less, especially outside of the environmentalist west. Supply and demand work both ways.
This is retarded idiocy that only morons would push.
If it's so stupid why is Russia whining about it?
Russia has more than enough potential buyers that will put cheaper energy and the competitive advantages that brings above the west's stupid virtue signalling and Russia Derangement Syndrome, everyone outside of the West is probably ROFLing at the the copium and self-righteous stupidity.
Well if their energy is going to be so much cheaper, it may accidentally go under the price limit, problem solved :D
What difference does it make whether Russia has to sell oil at a big discount due to the "moronic" price limit, or because it has to give a super special friend discount to India to sell the oil EU didn't buy? It's the same price in the end.
 
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