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Business & Finance Economic Fallout: Pandemic, Brandon, Money Printer Go Brr, Ukraine.

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
Sounds like excuses to me. I don't care, Ukraine shouldn't have been poking a notoriously edgy and vicious bear like Russia with a short stick.
That's not what happened.

Ukraine found gas/oil reserves in 2012 that would have allowed it to undercut Russian sales to Europe, and began making noises about joining the EU.

Then Maidan and MH17 happened, and Putin's showed he would not let Ukraine's citizens decide their own fates, if they went outside Moscow's sphere of influence.

Ukraine's existence an independent state is 'poking the Bear with a short stick' as far as Putin/Moscow is concerned, and it just show how much Russian propaganda has permeated through a segment of the US/western populace.

Also, did you forget the Ukrainians still remember Chernobyl and the Holomodor; the Ukrainians know what Moscow will do to them if they let Moscow keep or take power over them again.
 

Batrix2070

RON/PLC was a wonderful country.
Sounds like excuses to me. I don't care, Ukraine shouldn't have been poking a notoriously edgy and vicious bear like Russia with a short stick.
This is physically impossible, as the Polish proverb says, if you want to hit a dog, a stick will always be found, and this is how Russia behaves. Whatever Ukraine would do, Russia will find a reason to get what it wants. Zelenski even was elected precisely to avoid this brawl by being widely recognized as willing to compromise with Russia. Russia has not shown itself to be willing to do so.
 

Batrix2070

RON/PLC was a wonderful country.
Ukraine's existence an independent state is 'poking the Bear with a short stick' as far as Putin/Moscow is concerned, and it just show how much Russian propaganda has permeated through a segment of the US/western populace.
Let me put it this way, we Poles have for a very long time been strongly irritated by this strange friendship to Russia that the West exudes from the left and the right, ignoring the fact that there is no joking with Russia, and the price for the interests and peace of the West must always be paid by us, well, unless we knock Russia so much that the West physically cannot get along with Russia.
On the other hand, sometimes I have such a dream that the West would get a visit from the Russians without our cost and with our approval, maybe one such action will effectively cure the West from stupid ideas?
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
Let me put it this way, we Poles have for a very long time been strongly irritated by this strange friendship to Russia that the West exudes from the left and the right, ignoring the fact that there is no joking with Russia, and the price for the interests and peace of the West must always be paid by us, well, unless we knock Russia so much that the West physically cannot get along with Russia.
On the other hand, sometimes I have such a dream that the West would get a visit from the Russians without our cost and with our approval, maybe one such action will effectively cure the West from stupid ideas?
To be fair, a lot of the west never had to live under Moscow's thumb, you Pole's have had to do that, and were effectively sold out to the Nazi's prior to that.

So I get why that feeling exists for your country.

For a long time I thought Putin was some Macho genius bringing Russia into the 21st century, because of the image shaping campaign he/Russia undertook in US media and academic institutions for so long. Then 2014 rolled around and the world saw that Putin was just another authoritarian imperialist douche in the Kremlin.

I'll admit I didn't think Russia would actually go for a full invasion for a while last year, because the US press/intel groups had blown so much credibility on the attacks on Trump and what happened in A-stan.

However when the new bridge went up in the Chernobyl Exclusion Zone, and I found out the 1st Guards Tank Army was in Belgorod...that's when it became apparent Putin really was that retarded.
 

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
We tried to warn everyone, but no; we were just Russian sympathizers spreading Russian propaganda.

You seem to be under the impression that most of us think a lot of money being lost to corruption isn't a price worth paying for breaking the Russian military and keeping Ukraine free.

Plus it's not like supporting Ukraine AND wanting transparency and accountability are mutually exclusive things.

Pretty much. I'm with you on this count.

Sounds like excuses to me. I don't care, Ukraine shouldn't have been poking a notoriously edgy and vicious bear like Russia with a short stick.

Are you joking?

Or are you actually under the delusion that Ukraine somehow provoked this conflict?
 

Sobek

Disgusting Scalie
Smells like Neocon in here.

Provoked it? No. But they sure as hell aren't completly innocent like they pretend to be. Multiple US politicians have kids on Ukrainian Gas Board of Directors, Biden was literally telling their President to fire or replace people, and the entire 2014 shitshow had obvious western influence hijaking it to further their own gains.

This isn't a black and white issue. On one side you have a huge conglomerate of oligarchs and corporate interests, and on the other you have a much smaller conglomerate of oligarchs who are a lot less powerful but a lot more brutal about getting what they want. And as a result of their little power games Ukrainians and Russians are dying.
 

Terthna

Professional Lurker
Look, corruption in Ukraine is never going to be eliminated completely, even if the war will reduce it, and 20 billion is not that much compared to how much has gone to Ukraine, or how much they will need to rebuild.

Penny-pinching on Ukraine will not help anyone, and those who are skimming/engaging in corruption can be handled after the conflict, if they are not found and handled before that.

People need to realize Ukraine is going to be requiring what amounts to a full-on Lend Lease and Marshall Plan-level recovery situation till this war is over and till the damage is rebuilt.

Inflation will not get better if aid is cut to Ukraine.
Plus it's not like supporting Ukraine AND wanting transparency and accountability are mutually exclusive things.
And yet when Rand Paul objected to there not being any sort of oversight on where the money was going, he was denounced as a traitor by almost everyone on both sides of the aisle. He even got put on an official list (alongside Tulsi Gabbard and others) the Ukraine government has made of Russian propagandists. Forgive me; but it certainly seems like supporting Ukraine (or just opposing what Russia is doing there), and wanting transparency and accountability, have become mutually exclusive things.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
And yet when Rand Paul objected to there not being any sort of oversight on where the money was going, he was denounced as a traitor by almost everyone on both sides of the aisle. He even got put on an official list (alongside Tulsi Gabbard and others) the Ukraine government has made of Russian propagandists. Forgive me; but it certainly seems like supporting Ukraine (or just opposing what Russia is doing there), and wanting transparency and accountability, have become mutually exclusive things.
And some of us supported Rand Paul's desire for accountability.

However, desire for accountability does not override OPSEC, nor does some small corruption justify dropping support for Ukraine.

This is war, it's not ever going to be clean business, and it is not wrong for Ukraine to defend itself or for the west to support Ukraine in getting free from Russia.

And there is no 'third option', because at this point if you do not support Ukraine's fight against the Russian invaders to their lands, then you support Russian aggression against Ukraine.

That's just how it goes, unless you are nuclear armed nation state like the CCP, who can play both sides of this war and get away with it.
Yeah good point. The objective here seems to be exclusively money laundering, with the actual supporting of Ukraine and it's people a distant second.

Remember: UA and RU were negotiating a possible peace all the way back in April, and BoJo went and told Kiev to drop it cause the West would support them 101% no matter what and there was no need for peace.
Yes, yes, I'm sure all the old military hardware we've sent Ukraine are just all fabrications and all of the funds going to Ukraine are for 'money laundering' purposes.

And why should Kyiv negotiate, when it is Russia who has invaded them and tried to steal chunks of Ukrainian territory in farce 'referendums'?

Russia could end the war now, if it just withdrew troops behind the 1991 borders and stopped firing across the borders into Ukraine.

But you and others will ignore this, because 'west bad, therefore Russia good' or 'inflation bad, therefore aid to Ukraine bad' is as far as some of the thought processes of people here seem to go.
 

Terthna

Professional Lurker
And some of us supported Rand Paul's desire for accountability.

However, desire for accountability does not override OPSEC, nor does some small corruption justify dropping support for Ukraine.

This is war, it's not ever going to be clean business, and it is not wrong for Ukraine to defend itself or for the west to support Ukraine in getting free from Russia.

And there is no 'third option', because at this point if you do not support Ukraine's fight against the Russian invaders to their lands, then you support Russian aggression against Ukraine.

That's just how it goes, unless you are nuclear armed nation state like the CCP, who can play both sides of this war and get away with it.
In other words, it would be nice to have accountability, but it's not a deal breaker for you; and anyone who disagrees is one of "them".
 

TyrantTriumphant

Well-known member
On one hand I think that spending all this money on Ukraine is a pointless waste, but on the other hand if the money wasn't getting spent on Ukraine it would probably get spent on something even dumber.

So I have mixed feelings about all this.
 

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
Yeah good point. The objective here seems to be exclusively money laundering, with the actual supporting of Ukraine and it's people a distant second.

Remember: UA and RU were negotiating a possible peace all the way back in April, and BoJo went and told Kiev to drop it cause the West would support them 101% no matter what and there was no need for peace.

1. Good men may tolerate lesser evils for a time while focusing on a greater. And Russia's war of conquest is very much the greater evil.

2. You act like what BoJo advised Kyiv is the key factor, rather than Putin's lust for conquest, and the perception of the West as being weak. Zelensky was trying to avert the war up to the last minute, including not going to full mobilization in spite of Russia's blatant massing of forces on the Ukrainian border. It is clear that with a weak leader in the US, in Germany, and in the UK, Russia wasn't going to accept Ukraine as anything more than a puppet state, and preferred outright annexation.
 

LordSunhawk

Das BOOT (literally)
Owner
Administrator
Staff Member
Founder
I will point out that within hours of FTX collapsing, which was primarily being used to launder money from the Ukraine, the Ukraine promptly started talking about how nice making a peace deal would be. Interesting timing, that.

I still maintain that what we have in Ukraine is a bunch of corrupt globalist scumbags throwing down with a corrupt Russian scumbag, with large numbers of innocent people caught in the crossfire and being utterly ignored by both sides, when they aren't abusing the hell out of them (and that is both sides, the Ukrainian military has been just as brutal and sadistic as the Russian military.)

It's Team WEF vrs Team Putin, and between them I think the only winning play is to declare a pox on both their houses.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
In other words, it would be nice to have accountability, but it's not a deal breaker for you; and anyone who disagrees is one of "them".
Accountability does not matter more to me than helping Ukraine drive Russia out of it's borders, yes.

I want corruption purged as much as possible, do not get me wrong, and I think this war will forcefully purge a lot of corruption from inside Ukraine itself. However I also know that the powers in DC do love using foreign aid to give money to their friends via third parties, so I understand wanting to make sure the money DC is sending Ukraine is actually used as it was supposed to be.

None of that however changes that at this point thinking defending Ukraine's sovereignty should take a back seat to rooting out corruption, instead of being something that is done as one and the same effort.

Cutting aid to Ukraine will not fix anything at home, and thinking it will is falling for Russian psy-ops.
I will point out that within hours of FTX collapsing, which was primarily being used to launder money from the Ukraine, the Ukraine promptly started talking about how nice making a peace deal would be. Interesting timing, that.

I still maintain that what we have in Ukraine is a bunch of corrupt globalist scumbags throwing down with a corrupt Russian scumbag, with large numbers of innocent people caught in the crossfire and being utterly ignored by both sides, when they aren't abusing the hell out of them (and that is both sides, the Ukrainian military has been just as brutal and sadistic as the Russian military.)

It's Team WEF vrs Team Putin, and between them I think the only winning play is to declare a pox on both their houses.
This discounts that Chernobyl is within living memory for Ukrainians, and they remember the Holomodor.

Why must it be corrupt motivations fueling the Ukrainian desire not to be under Moscow's thumb again?

And I have not heard anything about Ukraine wanting to negotiate, only that Russia wants to in order to buy time to train up their new mobiks.
 

LordSunhawk

Das BOOT (literally)
Owner
Administrator
Staff Member
Founder
Accountability does not matter more to me than helping Ukraine drive Russia out of it's borders, yes.

I want corruption purged as much as possible, do not get me wrong, and I think this war will forcefully purge a lot of corruption from inside Ukraine itself. However I also know that the powers in DC do love using foreign aid to give money to their friends via third parties, so I understand wanting to make sure the money DC is sending Ukraine is actually used as it was supposed to be.

None of that however changes that at this point thinking defending Ukraine's sovereignty should take a back seat to rooting out corruption, instead of being something that is done as one and the same effort.

Cutting aid to Ukraine will not fix anything at home, and thinking it will is falling for Russian psy-ops.
This discounts that Chernobyl is within living memory for Ukrainians, and they remember the Holomodor.

Why must it be corrupt motivations fueling the Ukrainian desire not to be under Moscow's thumb again?

And I have not heard anything about Ukraine wanting to negotiate, only that Russia wants to in order to buy time to train up their new mobiks.
If the Holodomor is sufficient justification, then perhaps they should agree to return to pre-Khrushchev borders to keep all those icky Russians out of their territory, no? Oh wait, instead when they had control over those areas they abused the hell out of them, and when one of those icky eastern 'Ukrainians' was elected President staged a coup supported by Obama and the WEF elite to remove him. Please note that one of the lovely tactics used by the Maidan protestors was to trap their opponents inside buildings, then set fire to the building, shooting anybody who tried to escape.

Get it through your head, there are no clean hands here, at least in positions of authority and leadership. There are plenty of innocents suffering, yes, but their suffering is on both sides hands.
 

Terthna

Professional Lurker
Accountability does not matter more to me than helping Ukraine drive Russia out of it's borders, yes.

I want corruption purged as much as possible, do not get me wrong, and I think this war will forcefully purge a lot of corruption from inside Ukraine itself. However I also know that the powers in DC do love using foreign aid to give money to their friends via third parties, so I understand wanting to make sure the money DC is sending Ukraine is actually used as it was supposed to be.

None of that however changes that at this point thinking defending Ukraine's sovereignty should take a back seat to rooting out corruption, instead of being something that is done as one and the same effort.

Cutting aid to Ukraine will not fix anything at home, and thinking it will is falling for Russian psy-ops.
How the heck is a war supposed to purge corruption? Wars are a breeding ground for it; and so far, I've seen nothing to suggest that Ukraine is an exception to the rule. Moreover, if you actually give a crap about helping Ukraine drive Russia out of it's borders, accountability should be your highest priority; because otherwise, you're essentially saying that you don't care if any of the money actually goes to fighting Russia.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
How the heck is a war supposed to purge corruption? Wars are a breeding ground for it; and so far, I've seen nothing to suggest that Ukraine is an exception to the rule. Moreover, if you actually give a crap about helping Ukraine drive Russia out of it's borders, accountability should be your highest priority; because otherwise, you're essentially saying that you don't care if any of the money actually goes to fighting Russia.
No, accountability is second to combat effectiveness.

I am fine with keeping track of the corruption to deal with after Russia has been ejected, or just labelling it wartime treason and handling under that sort of law.

For now, it's more important to make sure that Ukraine is able to defend itself and remove the Russian occupiers from it's soil, than it is to make sure there is absolutely no corruption happening.

In an ideal world this would not be an either/or situation, and to a large degree it is not. The amount of corruption in Ukraine is rather overblown now; purging corruption happened as part of intel clean up of Russian agents in Ukraine's domestic services.

The fighting could end tomorrow if Russia decided to remove it's troops from Ukraine and move behind the 1991 borders, it is not Ukraine who is engaging in a war of aggression and imperialist conquest on behalf of a terminally ill madman.
 

Terthna

Professional Lurker
For now, it's more important to make sure that Ukraine is able to defend itself and remove the Russian occupiers from it's soil
How do you propose to do that, exactly? Just throw money in Ukraine's general direction, and hope it gets to where it's supposed to go? You're essentially arguing "we need to do something; this is something, so we need to do this!", irrespective of the efficacy of whatever "this" is. Let me reiterate; without accountability, you cannot guarantee that anything our country is doing to "help" is actually helping.
 

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