Business & Finance Economic Fallout: Pandemic, Brandon, Money Printer Go Brr, Ukraine.

[sillygoose]

Russia's demographics are absolute shit, and when the soviet union collapsed so did their educational system. Realistically they will not have enough people to defend their current boarders. Because those borders are flat lands that are great for marching and tanks.

So their choice is simple if they go forward and plug all their defensive gaps then their military can defend Russia even though it will be much smaller. This is what they need to plug those gaps.

You can see that quite a few people would have a problem with this.

Ok? That is what you're claiming, where have the Russians even talked about occupying the Baltic states? Plus your narrative has the small problem of occupying lands with a bunch of people that would really not like to be invaded. Sounds more like justifying ripping Russia apart preemptively.

 

[Carrot of Truth]

 

[Cherico]

Ok? That is what you're claiming, where have the Russians even talked about occupying the Baltic states? Plus your narrative has the small problem of occupying lands with a bunch of people that would really not like to be invaded. Sounds more like justifying ripping Russia apart preemptively.

Ukraine is a land with a bunch of people that would really not like to be invaded, so was georgia, and when the Kazahks complained about their current leadership the Russians moved in fast to prop up their allies. They have already made moves to plug up those gaps before this war and this war is about plugging up more.

There is a reason why Poland is talking about status of forces agreements with the united states, and having talks about stationing american nuclear weapons in poland. A status of forces agreement says that if an american soilder commits a crime on your soil he gets tried in an american milatary court instead of yours.

The places where we have these agreements are Japan, south Korea, and Germany.

Do you honestly think the poles would make that kind of agreement if they were not scarred shitless? The balts have been preparing for this for awhile too, every argument about how Ukraine isnt a real country can be pointed at them and they know it their preparing as well.

The fact is we either make Ukraine the last Russian war by bleeding them dry or we end up fighting Russia in nato countries. And the Russian milatary has proven to be such a disaster that we now know we would slaughter them in a conventional fight. This leaves Russia with two options nuclear arms or a humilating retreat.

We do not want to allow Russia to get to that point so Ukraine is going to get all of the money and the toys and we are going to do our best to make sure that around a million russian men do not return home alive.

Its a brutal war, no one here isn't some flavor of asshole but this is the return of normal geo politics this is the normal world we have historically lived in. You will have to learn that countries do no abide by human morality and learn to adapt to the world as it is instead of the world we wish we lived in.

 

[sillygoose]

Ukraine is a land with a bunch of people that would really not like to be invaded, so was georgia, and when the Kazahks complained about their current leadership the Russians moved in fast to prop up their allies. They have already made moves to plug up those gaps before this war and this war is about plugging up more.

Though the opening of the Georgian war is disputed as to who was responsible for instigating it, Georgia invaded South Ossetia before Russia attacked:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Russo-Georgian_War#Overview_timeline

As to the Kazahk situation you agree, Russia only intervened to help their friendly government and the complainers probably had foreign backing, same as in Ukraine. Same in Syria.

Ukraine is another disputed situation where the political system has been couped by the west at least twice, in 2004 and 2014. Russia intervened to stop a Ukrainian invasion of the Donbass and would have been happy with the Minsk Accords being followed.

There is a reason why Poland is talking about status of forces agreements with the united states, and having talks about stationing american nuclear weapons in poland. A status of forces agreement says that if an american soilder commits a crime on your soil he gets tried in an american milatary court instead of yours.

Poland is paranoid about having a big strong neighbor that outweighs their military, plus those bases and troops would generate a lot of money for the local economies as they did in Germany. Not only that, but it also helps reduce Poland's long term army spending burden and probably means more training opportunities and free stuff that gets left behind that the US thinks is obsolete, but would be helpful for Poland...after all they have kept all the Soviet era stuff.

The places where we have these agreements are Japan, south Korea, and Germany.

Right, where the US keeps troops to ensure its power projection. Poland wants to be a US proxy.

Do you honestly think the poles would make that kind of agreement if they were not scarred shitless? The balts have been preparing for this for awhile too, every argument about how Ukraine isnt a real country can be pointed at them and they know it their preparing as well.

Of course, because they agreed to it in 2009:

Poland agrees rules for hosting U.S. armed forces

Poland and the United States have agreed the legal details of deploying U.S. troops in Poland after lengthy negotiations, Deputy Defense Minister Stanislaw Komorowski said on Friday.

www.reuters.com

They've been after US bases since at least then:

US embassy cables: Poland in bid to bolster US military presence

Cable sent 07/05/2009C O N F I D E N T I A L SECTION 01 OF 02 WARSAW 000467

www.theguardian.com

It stands to be very lucrative for them and it isn't like South Korea, Japan, or Germany asked for any of that, but they got it anyway. Plus Poland has been wanting this for years and that is the reason it, and Georgia, sent troops to Iraq.

The fact is we either make Ukraine the last Russian war by bleeding them dry or we end up fighting Russia in nato countries. And the Russian milatary has proven to be such a disaster that we now know we would slaughter them in a conventional fight. This leaves Russia with two options nuclear arms or a humilating retreat.

We do not want to allow Russia to get to that point so Ukraine is going to get all of the money and the toys and we are going to do our best to make sure that around a million russian men do not return home alive.

Its a brutal war, no one here isn't some flavor of asshole but this is the return of normal geo politics this is the normal world we have historically lived in. You will have to learn that countries do no abide by human morality and learn to adapt to the world as it is instead of the world we wish we lived in.

You seem to be lost in some paranoid fantasy world. Maybe not provoking Russia would avoid risking nuclear war? Especially if their long term prospects were so bad.

 

[Cherico]

The russians will attack any ways because once again it is in their national interest.

You want to know what not provoking Russia looks like realistically looks like? I gave you a map. We give up every single baltic country they lose their independence. All of their wealth is syponed off into the Russian state and they become second class class citizens in their own land. Moldova stops existing and Romania loses some of their territory. Georgia and Azerbjain stop existing as countries. Poles lose every thing east of the Vistula river every one east of that river either is forced to flee west or gets ethnically cleansed in pogroms and genocide.

It is russian domination over the lives of a number of people twice the number of Russias population. In the hope that their new defensible boarders buy them a few more years.

Because the Soviets pretty much destroyed their economy, because their one of the most drug addicted countries in the world and the second fastest aging population in the world. Because their demographics are so absolutely shit that this is their last chance to move.

This is to them a war of national survival, you want to turn those countries over to be ruled over by moscow. Fine thats a logical conversation. If you don't want that to happen but don't want to risk nuclear war you turn Ukraine into the bloodiest quagmire in human history.

If you fail that then you have to honestly sit down and you have to think about turning Russia into the next Carthrage, and that my friend is not a pleasant conversation or thought at all.

 

[Arch Dornan]

No one gives a shit about Ukraine except the Ukranians the real reason for the fight is to exaust the russian war machine so that nato doesn't have to fight them in an area we actually care about. Because of this we will fight to the very last Ukranian.

And it will happen. The politicians will spend nickel and dime at tax payer expense to fund them with everything they have including old hand me downs while the defense industries rub their hands in glee securing new contracts to refresh their stocks.

Right until their own economy goes down in the shitter and they stop.

EU says pay for Russian gas in euros to avoid breaching sanctions

EU companies may be able to work around Russia's demand to receive gas payments in roubles without breaching sanctions if they pay in euros or dollars which are then converted into the Russian currency, the European Commission said on Friday.

www.reuters.com

Capitulation?

 

[bintananth]

EU says pay for Russian gas in euros to avoid breaching sanctions

EU companies may be able to work around Russia's demand to receive gas payments in roubles without breaching sanctions if they pay in euros or dollars which are then converted into the Russian currency, the European Commission said on Friday.

www.reuters.com

Capitulation?

No. It's what was always going to happen when Russia said "You're paying us in roubles, and only in roubles."

 

[Arch Dornan]

No. It's what was always going to happen when Russia said "You're paying us in roubles, and only in roubles."

Then it's capitulation.

What else were they going to do without an alternative source to wean themselves off of Russian gas and oil in the short and long term?

 

[bintananth]

Then it's capitulation.

What else were they going to do without an alternative source to wean themselves off of Russian gas and oil in the short and long term?

Six of one, half-dozen of the other. The dollars/euros were already getting converted to roubles before all this started. Now people are being fussy about who does the conversnions along with the timing of said conversions.

 

[LordsFire]

What is your basis for this claim? Russia literally has only really wanted a neutral Ukraine and allied Belarus. Every other claim against Russia's supposed imperialism is basically fear mongering without real sources.

The basis for claiming that Russia is trying to control other nations, is in that they invaded Ukraine. That's all that's needed. They literally sent their military to try to storm the capital, and launched broad-front invasions across the North, East, and South.

You don't do this if you're not trying to force another nation to bend to your will.

 

[Arch Dornan]

Indonesia bans palm oil exports as global food inflation spikes

The world's top palm oil producer's shock move could further inflame surging global food inflation.

www.reuters.com

 

[Cherico]

The basis for claiming that Russia is trying to control other nations, is in that they invaded Ukraine. That's all that's needed. They literally sent their military to try to storm the capital, and launched broad-front invasions across the North, East, and South.

You don't do this if you're not trying to force another nation to bend to your will.

I don't even hate Russia for it this is just how the game is played. Sucks for the Ukrainians stuck in it though.

 

[Arch Dornan]

I don't even hate Russia for it this is just how the game is played. Sucks for the Ukrainians stuck in it though.

Hate the game not the player.

 

[Terthna]

The russians will attack any ways because once again it is in their national interest.

You want to know what not provoking Russia looks like realistically looks like? I gave you a map. We give up every single baltic country they lose their independence. All of their wealth is syponed off into the Russian state and they become second class class citizens in their own land. Moldova stops existing and Romania loses some of their territory. Georgia and Azerbjain stop existing as countries. Poles lose every thing east of the Vistula river every one east of that river either is forced to flee west or gets ethnically cleansed in pogroms and genocide.

It is russian domination over the lives of a number of people twice the number of Russias population. In the hope that their new defensible boarders buy them a few more years.

Because the Soviets pretty much destroyed their economy, because their one of the most drug addicted countries in the world and the second fastest aging population in the world. Because their demographics are so absolutely shit that this is their last chance to move.

This is to them a war of national survival, you want to turn those countries over to be ruled over by moscow. Fine thats a logical conversation. If you don't want that to happen but don't want to risk nuclear war you turn Ukraine into the bloodiest quagmire in human history.

If you fail that then you have to honestly sit down and you have to think about turning Russia into the next Carthrage, and that my friend is not a pleasant conversation or thought at all.

Personally, I think the United States has been put into a Chinese finger trap by a seemingly-endless conga line of leadership, hell-bent on antagonizing Russia at nearly every opportunity. Their fears of western aggression are well-founded, and whatever plans they may have for reclaiming the Soviet Union's former borders to increase their ability to defend themselves against us is our own doing. We already fucked things up in the region well beyond the point of fixing anything for several generations; let's not compound our mistakes by indulging in the sunk cost fallacy, and just walk away before we make things worse.

The basis for claiming that Russia is trying to control other nations, is in that they invaded Ukraine. That's all that's needed. They literally sent their military to try to storm the capital, and launched broad-front invasions across the North, East, and South.

You don't do this if you're not trying to force another nation to bend to your will.

What does it mean, then, when you back a violent coup that overthrows the previous government, and replaces it with one more likely to acquiesce to our country's demands? Just because America managed to avoid getting its own hands dirty, does not mean that the dirt isn't still there; we invaded first.

 

[Cherico]

Personally, I think the United States has been put into a Chinese finger trap by a seemingly-endless conga line of leadership, hell-bent on antagonizing Russia at nearly every opportunity. Their fears of western aggression are well-founded, and whatever plans they may have for reclaiming the Soviet Union's former borders to increase their ability to defend themselves against us is our own doing. We already fucked things up in the region well beyond the point of fixing anything for several generations; let's not compound our mistakes by indulging in the sunk cost fallacy, and just walk away before we make things worse.




What does it mean, then, when you back a violent coup that overthrows the previous government, and replaces it with one more likely to acquiesce to our country's demands? Just because America managed to avoid getting its own hands dirty, does not mean that the dirt isn't still there; we invaded first.

To be fair we didn't want to be in this situation no one did, but some Serbian asshole looked around saw a peaceful europe and proceded to fuck up everything.

And then after that when there was a defensible situation and everything was slowly rebuilding an austrian cunt with a bad mustash went out and fucked up everything.

Then the communists took up pretty much all of eastern europe and we here in america realized holy shit the euroes have shit the bed completely and were going to have to carry everything, and then the Russians pointed nukes at us and we pointed it at them and we got to have the absolute fun time of having them merryly set fires to every thing they could.

Could we have been nicer during the 90s? We could have been a fuck load meaner, most of the damage Russia is suffering is self inflicted, which you know is pretty much Russian history in a nutshell because no one has ever fucked Russia as hard as Russia.

 

[Tiamat]

Personally, I think the United States has been put into a Chinese finger trap by a seemingly-endless conga line of leadership, hell-bent on antagonizing Russia at nearly every opportunity. Their fears of western aggression are well-founded, and whatever plans they may have for reclaiming the Soviet Union's former borders to increase their ability to defend themselves against us is our own doing. We already fucked things up in the region well beyond the point of fixing anything for several generations; let's not compound our mistakes by indulging in the sunk cost fallacy, and just walk away before we make things worse.




What does it mean, then, when you back a violent coup that overthrows the previous government, and replaces it with one more likely to acquiesce to our country's demands? Just because America managed to avoid getting its own hands dirty, does not mean that the dirt isn't still there; we invaded first.

I would really, really like to know why you are so hellbent on sucking up to Russia (sorry, I can't put it any other way), while endlessly blackpilling, conspiracy talk and piling doom on the US at every turn. Hell, I'm the impression you WANT to see Russia expand the borders to the Vistula, and see that the US turns into a Balkanized hellhole, because in your mind, the US deserves it, right???

 

[Cherico]

I would really, really like to know why you are so hellbent on sucking up to Russia (sorry, I can't put it any other way), while endlessly blackpilling, conspiracy talk and piling doom on the US at every turn. Hell, I'm the impression you WANT to see Russia expand the borders to the Vistula, and see that the US turns into a Balkanized hellhole, because in your mind, the US deserves it, right???

To be fair to her, during the ending days of a modern period pretty much anything that can be called establishment leadership becomes some kind of cultish moronic asshole. Its really hard to see this as the civilizational problem it is instead of just mearly a national one.

Ideally people would just get their heads out of their assholes and stop trying to micromanage other peoples lives and live and let live but we do not live in an ideal world.

 

[Simonbob]

I would really, really like to know why you are so hellbent on sucking up to Russia (sorry, I can't put it any other way), while endlessly blackpilling, conspiracy talk and piling doom on the US at every turn. Hell, I'm the impression you WANT to see Russia expand the borders to the Vistula, and see that the US turns into a Balkanized hellhole, because in your mind, the US deserves it, right???

I think he's seen some of what I saw.

Ukraine has been in a state of civil war for years, an area of the Ukraine has been Russian, both in terms of lang, and ethnic, to the point that many of them wanted to rejoin Russia, and were willing to fight for it, with the ethnic Ukrainians being willing to fight as well. This was started back in the USSR days, where Russian supremists depopulated the area, and moved Russians, mostly unwilling pesants, in. It's been their home ever since, and given this all happened more than 50 years ago, most grew up there.

The conflict, as is common in civil wars, and worse still in 3rd world nations, was messy as hell. I haven't looked too much into it, but I know plenty of horrors happened. Russia's tried to protect the ethnic Russians (and take a bit more territory) at least once, I think.

At the same time, there have been at least 2 times the West has supported new govenments, and at least once the Russians have done the same. The current govenment of Ukraine was supported by western interests, while the Russian govenment looked on with quiet horror.


Then came 2015, where suddenly everything wrong with the US was Russia's fault. The group who pushed that are the same group who have been doing "regime change" all over the Middle East. Swamp creatures, like Joe Biden.





Don't get me wrong. Russia's a shithole, run by a classic 3rd world dictator. But, there's quite a bit of evidence that Ukraine's as bad or worse. And Russia's been reasonably calm, until it really started to look like there was a concerted push in many senior western leaders to "regime change" them, and they've been slowly getting more and more unhinged.




I'm genuinely expecting Putin to be completely unwilling to compromise, to the point that he'll throw nukes around, because to his eyes, it's that or death.





The fact the Ukraine is getting squished between the West and Russia isn't something I like. The fact that the leader of Ukraine, Zelensky, is always pushing for more western infuence, for NATO membership, and since the start of the war, for various ideas that would push Putin to the point where his choices are nuke or die? The connections between the Biden family and Ukraine companies, the bio labs funded by the US? The known footage of Joe Biden forcing Ukraine to fire one of their prosecutors, to protect the company that his crackhead son was working for? I'm not putting all the blame on Putin.






What a stupid mess. And, it never had to happen.

 

[Arch Dornan]

Don't get me wrong. Russia's a shithole, run by a classic 3rd world dictator. But, there's quite a bit of evidence that Ukraine's as bad or worse. And Russia's been reasonably calm, until it really started to look like there was a concerted push in many senior western leaders to "regime change" them, and they've been slowly getting more and more unhinged.

And now after this I'm sure they do want to regime change them. Nothing personal just how it is when you don't get along with their system.

 

[Blasterbot]

And now after this I'm sure they do want to regime change them. Nothing personal just how it is when you don't get along with their system.

unfortunately regime change has generally ended with an even worse government in place for the last 2 decades or so. after Ghadaffi got Ghadaffied (death by sodomy with a bayonet) the Libyan slave trade started back up. 20 years of blood and trillions of dollars have resulted in afganistan being controlled by a more extreme taliban. I think that trying that with a country with loads of nukes is a terrible idea.