Religion Creationism, Evolution and the Bible

ShadowsOfParadox

Well-known member
but are either of the two scenarios above strictly impossible?
Ok, let me put it this way, Mt Everest is so high, that there isn't enough water on the planet, solid, liquid, or gas, to actually cover the thing. By like, two+ orders of magnitude(Edit: this is quick napkin math based entirely on the height of Everest and how high sea level is expected to rise if all ice on the planet melted, it's basically garaunteed to be a massive underestimate). Never mind the question of how big the boat would need to be to have a mating pair of actually every animal on it, or the amount of food storage required to feed the lot, or how like, 10ish people were supposed to have the time to feed them all...

Now, ok, the water thing could just be God doing it ex nihilo and then removing the excess when God was done. But the boat was explicitly supposed to be built by human hands... There isn't a way to get that much wood together that fast, never mind make it into an actually good enough boat. Never mind the animals, because the only answer to getting that many animals into one place and then rescattering them in time is, again, God Did It.

Like, seriously, the entire story of the Flood only makes sense if God Did The Entire Thing.


EDIT: Decided to also take a stab at the Christianity thing, and it's because a bunch of us are from America or Europe and therefore certain strains of Christianity are the primary opponent... and the main opponent in this thread is also Christian.
 

Syzygy

Well-known member
Ok, let me put it this way, Mt Everest is so high, that there isn't enough water on the planet, solid, liquid, or gas, to actually cover the thing. By like, two+ orders of magnitude
Now that I think about it, the static level of water throughout known history is a bit silly considering no amount could have existed during the formation of Earth. Just seems weird it was a one and done deal over the course of 4.5 billion years. Pretty funny to think Everest didn't even exist a few million years ago either.

By no means am I suggesting humanity as we know it existed within the same time frame as the formation of the Himalayas.

or the amount of food storage required to feed the lot, or how like, 10ish people were supposed to have the time to feed them all...
Hey now, no one said all species had to survive the ride. Sometimes nature takes its course; survival of the fittest and all that.
 

ShadowsOfParadox

Well-known member
Now that I think about it, the static level of water throughout known history is a bit silly considering no amount could have existed during the formation of Earth. Just seems weird it was a one and done deal over the course of 4.5 billion years. Pretty funny to think Everest didn't even exist a few million years ago either.
Most likely current theory with actual evidence is Comets, then the orbit and the rest of the system stabilized and that stopped.
Hey now, no one said all species had to survive the ride.
...That was kind of implied given that was the explicit point.
 

King Krávoka

An infection of Your universe.
It's like there were less species at the time than in our modern day, like there was some sort of....mechanism for the existence of new species that taken its effect between then and now.
 

ShadowsOfParadox

Well-known member
It's like there were less species at the time than in our modern day, like there was some sort of....mechanism for the existence of new species that taken its effect between then and now.
Dude... even if you cut the species count by a full order of magnitude(in other words, just recently mostly recovered from a mass extinction levels) you still need TOO BIG A SHIP.

Which gets even worse when you realize the Bible has the size of The Ark and, well... it's not big enough for the locals.
 

ShieldWife

Marchioness
at the risk of sounding like a joke, what's the endgame in all of this?
duty_calls.png
 

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
Wherein you completely misunderstood very basic functions of statistics and have yet to respond to me pointing this out, making it very clear you are talking bullshit because you are rejecting out-of-hand and wildly misunderstanding corrections to your own figures.

Again, three orders of magnitude of digits difference for an input number. The difference between billions of digits and millions.

I'd been trying to decide whether or not this was worth the trouble, and at this point, I guess I am going to take a stab at it.

So, DNA is a chain of four nucleotides, Cytosine (C), Guanine (G), Adenine (A), and Thymine, (T). The full complexity of the way that they connect to each other on one side of the DNA chain, and to the paired nucleotide on the other side of the chain, is far, far more complicated than what I’m going to actually bother mathing out for you here, but I operate at the level of early college chemistry, not a doctorate like Doctor Wickramasinghe.

Cytosine, Guanine, and Adenine are made entirely of Hydrogen, Oxygen, and Nitrogen, though they’re all different structures thereof. Thymine also throws in one Carbon atom, and all of this makes actually trying to get useful DNA much, much, much more complicated than the math that I’m about to do here for you.

But the point of the math that I’m going to do here, is that anyone who can understand multiplication and exponents should be able to understand this. Or put another way, if you went to a decent high school and graduated, got your GED, or just were decent at self-study, you should be able to follow the math that I’m about to do.

I don’t have my records from the last time I did this, which was like eight years ago now, I know I based it on a single strand of DNA of a given length, and that’s where I got a figure of something like 2 in 10^230th power. We aren’t going to get that result here, because I’m looking up different data, and the old data was lost in a hard drive crash. For example, I didn’t find anything solid on the fewest chromosomes a living thing could have back then, now I know that a creature can live with just one. Also, I operated on the assumption of a chromosome with only a couple thousand base pairs. I’ve since learned that in human DNA, the shortest chromosome is fifty million base pairs long, the longest over 300 million.

I’ve found reference to bacterial DNA that’s ‘just’ 4 million base pairs long, and as I haven’t found something simpler, we’ll go with that as our starting point. I’ve also found mention of bacterial DNA being three billion pairs long. Being more generous than is reasonable to the materialists who believe in abiogenesis, we’ll assume our first, simplest form of single-celled life has DNA a tenth as complex as Caulobacter crescentus’s mere 4 million base pairs, or 400,000 base pairs long.

So, simplifying out the elements needed to bind DNA together, simplifying out the part of the process that actually gets you C, G, A, and T, and just looking at the numerical probabilities of getting your four different nucleotides in the right place to do what they’re supposed to.

Four nucleotides, with 400,000 positions, gives us a very simple formula for calculating the probability of getting the correct, useful DNA result:

4^400,000.

Any of you who know how exponents work will immediately realize this is not going to go happy places for a statistically relevant chance of happening. Once we punch this formula into my computer’s calculator function, we get…

Oh. ‘Invalid input.’ Won’t even calculate that. That’s a bit of a problem. I wonder what the maximum number range this computer is allowed to calculate is? Either way, it doesn’t want to calculate this number.

My own method for doing this, is cribbing from the fact that 2^5=1024, so about every 5 exponents on there gets you 3 zeros. That means that we can divide 400,000 by 5, then multiply it by 3. That gets you about 10^240,000.

Let’s ask the doctoral student in Applied Mathematics (my roommate) who is sitting next to me how to handle this.

He says that gets you about 10^240,824. He apparently used some exponent and logarithm shenanigans to get that. I’ll ask him to put his process in here for you to review:


So exponent rules are that if you have (x^y)^z, that becomes x^(yz), so I wanna separate my 400000 into a y such that 4^y = 10. 4^400000 is the same as 2^800000, which is the same as 2^(3.3219 * 800000/3.3219). 2^3.3219 or so is 10(which is where I get that number from, incidentally), so we have a total of 10^240824 if we do a little rounding.


I’m a little proud that my cribbed method was reasonably close to what the professional mathematician got out. I’m kind of scared that we’ve gotten into a higher logarithmic scale than Doctor Wickramasinghe’s numbers.

Just for kicks and giggles, I just filled an entire page in a document (default format, 12pt Liberation Serif font) in Libre Office with zeroes. That got me ~4068 zeroes. Which means that just to list all the zeroes in non-exponential form, you would need sixty pages just to list all of the zeroes.

And yes, more than one single combination will get you a viable life-form. Let's be generous, and say there's a hundred trillion viable combinations. That removes 14 of your 240,824 zeros, bringing you down to 240,810. This isn't going to get you anywhere meaningful.

This is the probability to get one strand of DNA, if you assume you have nothing but the correct nucleotides compiling together, ignoring the issues of getting the nucleotides, the other things involved in putting them together, and the chance of them getting torn apart.

I’ve simplified it down to this level, because this is math that your average competent adult should be able to do. If you can see an error in it, show me, and I’ll correct my calculations.
 
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Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
I'd been trying to decide whether or not this was worth the trouble, and at this point, I guess I am going to take a stab at it.

So, DNA is a chain of four nucleotides, Cytosine (C), Guanine (G), Adenine (A), and Thymine, (T). The full complexity of the way that they connect to each other on one side of the DNA chain, and to the paired nucleotide on the other side of the chain, is far, far more complicated than what I’m going to actually bother mathing out for you here, but I operate at the level of early college chemistry, not a doctorate like Doctor Wickramasinghe.

Cytosine, Guanine, and Adenine are made entirely of Hydrogen, Oxygen, and Nitrogen, though they’re all different structures thereof. Thymine also throws in one Carbon atom, and all of this makes actually trying to get useful DNA much, much, much more complicated than the math that I’m about to do here for you.

But the point of the math that I’m going to do here, is that anyone who can understand multiplication and exponents should be able to understand this. Or put another way, if you went to a decent high school and graduated, got your GED, or just were decent at self-study, you should be able to follow the math that I’m about to do.

I don’t have my records from the last time I did this, which was like eight years ago now, I know I based it on a single strand of DNA of a given length, and that’s where I got a figure of something like 2 in 10^230th power. We aren’t going to get that result here, because I’m looking up different data, and the old data was lost in a hard drive crash. For example, I didn’t find anything solid on the fewest chromosomes a living thing could have back then, now I know that a creature can live with just one. Also, I operated on the assumption of a chromosome with only a couple thousand base pairs. I’ve since learned that in human DNA, the shortest chromosome is fifty million base pairs long, the longest over 300 million.

I’ve found reference to bacterial DNA that’s ‘just’ 4 million base pairs long, and as I haven’t found something simpler, we’ll go with that as our starting point. I’ve also found mention of bacterial DNA being three billion pairs long. Being more generous than is reasonable to the materialists who believe in abiogenesis, we’ll assume our first, simplest form of single-celled life has DNA a tenth as complex as Caulobacter crescentus’s mere 4 million base pairs, or 400,000 base pairs long.

So, simplifying out the elements needed to bind DNA together, simplifying out the part of the process that actually gets you C, G, A, and T, and just looking at the numerical probabilities of getting your four different nucleotides in the right place to do what they’re supposed to.

Four nucleotides, with 400,000 positions, gives us a very simple formula for calculating the probability of getting the correct, useful DNA result:

4^400,000.

Any of you who know how exponents work will immediately realize this is not going to go happy places for a statistically relevant chance of happening. Once we punch this formula into my computer’s calculator function, we get…

Oh. ‘Invalid input.’ Won’t even calculate that. That’s a bit of a problem. I wonder what the maximum number range this computer is allowed to calculate is? Either way, it doesn’t want to calculate this number.

My own method for doing this, is cribbing from the fact that 2^5=1024, so about every 5 exponents on there gets you 3 zeros. That means that we can divide 400,000 by 5, then multiply it by 3. That gets you about 10^240,000.

Let’s ask the doctoral student in Applied Mathematics (my roommate) who is sitting next to me how to handle this.

He says that gets you about 10^240,824. He apparently used some exponent and logarithm shenanigans to get that. I’ll ask him to put his process in here for you to review:


So exponent rules are that if you have (x^y)^z, that becomes x^(yz), so I wanna separate my 400000 into a y such that 4^y = 10. 4^400000 is the same as 2^800000, which is the same as 2^(3.3219 * 800000/3.3219). 2^3.3219 or so is 10(which is where I get that number from, incidentally), so we have a total of 10^240824 if we do a little rounding.


I’m a little proud that my cribbed method was reasonably close to what the professional mathematician got out. I’m kind of scared that we’ve gotten into a higher logarithmic scale than Doctor Wickramasinghe’s numbers.

Just for kicks and giggles, I just filled an entire page in a document (default format, 12pt Liberation Serif font) in Libre Office with zeroes. That got me ~4068 zeroes. Which means that just to list all the zeroes in non-exponential form, you would need sixty pages just to list all of the zeroes.

This is the probability to get one strand of DNA, if you assume you have nothing but the correct nucleotides compiling together, ignoring the issues of getting the nucleotides, the other things involved in putting them together, and the chance of them getting torn apart.

I’ve simplified it down to this level, because this is math that your average competent adult should be able to do. If you can see an error in it, show me, and I’ll correct my calculations.
Getting all them together is not as hard as you think, if a planetary body has some form of long lasting liquid and geothermal vents producing gas bubbles on it.

Those vents produce bubbles, which could act as the base of the first cell, if it occurred in a nutrient rich liquid with the building blocks of life. Imagine a thin film over a gas bubble that ends up sticking together after the bubble collapses or pops, or just traps the gas inside, and over the eons those bubble's films mingle/react with each other, and at some point begin to self-replicate.

I believe in the divine, however I do not think the evolution of life on this planet is something beyond sciences ability to ferret out answers to. To quote Spock, life evolving is 'implausible, but not impossible' from a purely scientific stand-point.

If it really is the numbers that bother you, and not that you see it as an 'atheist threat' to religious faith, then why deny evolution is a thing just because some people see the miracle of existence through a non-religious lens because they can accept the improbable can happen? Are enormously big numbers and people accepting them really that much of an issue for you?

Multiple experiments have proven speciation has happened, we have transitional fossils (not as many as we would like, because geological unconformities are like a bulldozer when it comes to fossils), and we have DNA evidence showing speciation through time; the humble chicken is a far cry from a T-Rex, but it is also far more survivable in terms of population numbers and how much it needs to sustain itself.

God created DNA because the divine wanted to give creation a tool-kit to create the varied and wonderful world and universe we inhabit. However, if others believe it's all random chance that brought it all together, does that really make what life is and how it got that way any less miraculous?
 

Morphic Tide

Well-known member
I’ve simplified it down to this level, because this is math that your average competent adult should be able to do. If you can see an error in it, show me, and I’ll correct my calculations.
You'd previously stated this:

The probability of getting one correct completed chromosome of DNA, much less the half-dozen or so you need for even the simplest of life forms, came out to something like 2 in 10^230.

And this was your original response to my mention of the difference in scale:
And for reference, five orders of magnitude is five zeroes out of the hundred and fifty some, so even if you were proposing a simpler thing, not a more complex thing than the example I gave, you'd still have another 145 zeroes to account for.

You are literally making contradictory arguments. You dismissed it previously with the woeful misunderstanding that the function could be linear in nature, where removing orders of magnitude in the input removes the same from the output, and now you're trying to dismiss it with the very same thing I pointed out in response of the exponential growth of this input.

You said "a chromosome", which is an immensely reducible glycoprotein structure containing vastly more DNA than any bacterial genome. So I looked at something that actually has chromosomes for my sense of scale, expecting your math to actually use that general scale, to explain you were making a staggering over-estimate.

As for having 9.9*10^240,824 combinations to work through (Wolfram Alpha, again) with a meagre 400,000 base pairs? That assumes the dice have zero memory. Assumes that every piece must assemble right the first time, no retries, in one full string, in exactly one configuration. This is the big fuzzy clusterfuck of abiogenesis, there is not just one right way.

Would you happen to know off the top of your head how to check for the three-base-pair coding scheme that in all known life has multiple combinations keying to the same amino acid? How to check for the use of interons and exons? There is enormous amounts of stuff found in every single living thing that give rise to ways to have more combinations be valid.

There is just so many ways what you are writing makes it clear you have not actually looked into the subject in detail. You have looked at the big number of combinations and said "That Doesn't Make Sense", then left it at that. No consideration given to simplifying factors, no serious look to actually figuring out the irreducible primordial cell.

A very rough stab-in-the-dark of a guess at what to check for that would be having 4,000 distinct units of 100 base pairs each at an average of 2.5 functionally identical combinations, instead of a full 400,000 in exact order to the single base pair. Because the order the genes are in is likely to have little importance at such extreme simplicity.
 

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
You'd previously stated this:



And this was your original response to my mention of the difference in scale:


You are literally making contradictory arguments. You dismissed it previously with the woeful misunderstanding that the function could be linear in nature, where removing orders of magnitude in the input removes the same from the output, and now you're trying to dismiss it with the very same thing I pointed out in response of the exponential growth of this input.
I showed you the math actually done. I am not making contradictory arguments, and I'm not even sure how you come to the point of thinking that I have.

Did you actually read the whole post?
You said "a chromosome", which is an immensely reducible glycoprotein structure containing vastly more DNA than any bacterial genome. So I looked at something that actually has chromosomes for my sense of scale, expecting your math to actually use that general scale, to explain you were making a staggering over-estimate.

As for having 9.9*10^240,824 combinations to work through (Wolfram Alpha, again) with a meagre 400,000 base pairs? That assumes the dice have zero memory. Assumes that every piece must assemble right the first time, no retries, in one full string, in exactly one configuration. This is the big fuzzy clusterfuck of abiogenesis, there is not just one right way.
The dice do have no memory. For materialistic abiogenesis to be possible, there is no scientist standing nearby, watching strands form, taking samples, storing data, and using information gained as a new starting point.

Any time that a viable and complete life-form does not form, what you have is useless, and will be eroded away to nothing by the same chemical processes that can bring carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, and nitrogen together. A random combination that gets you 80% of a viable DNA strand is utterly useless to having life, because it is not actually viable.

You need something completely viable, all forming at once.

Would you happen to know off the top of your head how to check for the three-base-pair coding scheme that in all known life has multiple combinations keying to the same amino acid? How to check for the use of interons and exons? There is enormous amounts of stuff found in every single living thing that give rise to ways to have more combinations be valid.

There is just so many ways what you are writing makes it clear you have not actually looked into the subject in detail. You have looked at the big number of combinations and said "That Doesn't Make Sense", then left it at that. No consideration given to simplifying factors, no serious look to actually figuring out the irreducible primordial cell.

Yes I have, and everything that you are mentioning does not reduce the minimum amount of complexity required to actually get that first viable life form.

What are the simplifying factors? How do they function? What effect do they have upon the math?

Can you actually explain these things, or is this just another hand-wave?

A very rough stab-in-the-dark of a guess at what to check for that would be having 4,000 distinct units of 100 base pairs each at an average of 2.5 functionally identical combinations, instead of a full 400,000 in exact order to the single base pair. Because the order the genes are in is likely to have little importance at such extreme simplicity.

I'm not even sure what you're trying to say here, but 'extreme simplicity' is a strange way to describe something more complex than any machine mankind has ever made.

In fact, I'd say 'extreme simplicity' is the exact opposite of the right way to describe such a thing. A single living cell is so complex that it's difficult for a human being to actually understand that level of complexity, and this is true even of 'simple' cells in 'less-sophisticated' life-forms.


Again, I'd like you to explain what hypothesized 'simplifying factors' there are, and what their mathematical effects are.
 

ShadowsOfParadox

Well-known member
The dice do have no memory
Because no molecule ever assembles in stages...

... ... ...Oh wait... look at all these rocks...
All these rocks, defined by previously being something else and then changing under changing environmental conditions.

Stage 1
A bunch of random atoms find a comfy config with each other that's nice and stable and harder to break than it was to form.
Stage 2
Another bunch of random atoms also in a comfy config slot into a new comfy config with the first bunch
Stage 3
Repeat a bunch of times
Stage 4
Congrats, you have a bunch of atoms in a comfy config that attracts similar atoms to join the comfy config
Stage 5
The Comfy Config eventually gets big and complex enough to start approaching life.

A possible way for the Dice to Have Memory with no Scientist standing over the lot.

The thing you seem to be hung up on, which is a silly thing to be hung up on, is the idea that life has to have formed immediately. There was no life, BOOM LIFE. That's not how Evolution posits ANYTHING to work.

It's not a matter of "No Wings" BOOM Acheopteryx, now there's wings! Archeopteryx is itself the result of a bunch of tiny shifts adding up.

Similarly, why would the first organism be a singular result of a singular event? Rather than a slow accumulation into something that can start being called life.

We draw a lot of lines, nature draws far fewer of them.
 

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
Similarly, why would the first organism be a singular result of a singular event? Rather than a slow accumulation into something that can start being called life.

Because while that's fine for rock, that is not how biology works.

What happens if a rock has a slightly-off percentage of silicon, carbon, or trace elements? What happens if the pressure, heat, and other environmental conditions for the rock are slightly off?

The answer to both of these is either 'you get a funny-looking rock,' or 'you get a different kind of rock.'

Life is nowhere near so simple or robust to environmental and composition changes.

What would happen to DNA, for example, if you mixed it in with a chunk of Strontium? Lead? How about Uranium?

Or even just the same materials it's made of, but in the wrong ratios or compositions?

Your comparison is terrible. A better comparison would be 'What happens if you chain a boulder into place, then drip hard water on it for a hundred years? What happens if you tie a pig into place, then drip hard water on it for a hundred years?'

The rock gets bigger, due to mineral accumulation, and you get a stalagmite. The pig's dead and rotted away; probably with a stalagmite forming on its bones.

Stage 1
A bunch of random atoms find a comfy config with each other that's nice and stable and harder to break than it was to form.
Stage 2
Another bunch of random atoms also in a comfy config slot into a new comfy config with the first bunch
Stage 3
Repeat a bunch of times
Stage 4
Congrats, you have a bunch of atoms in a comfy config that attracts similar atoms to join the comfy config
Stage 5
The Comfy Config eventually gets big and complex enough to start approaching life.

See, there's two problems with this. First, it completely ignores the level of complexity involved, and the fact that no matter where you go and look, what minerals and sediments you explore, there will be a hard cap on the level of complexity you will find things in, and it is hundreds of orders of magnitude lower than life. The only exception is if you find life, or the fossilized remnants of life.

The other, is that you're ignoring the second law of thermodynamics. The level of disorder in a system will increase, or remain the same. It will not decrease. This is one of the problems with evolution in general, but the place it has particular issues with, is abiogenesis.

Yes, if you have an external source pumping energy into the system, that can let the energy source decay in exchange for increased localized complexity in the system you're focused on. The best metaphor for this would be cooking.

I'm a baker. I spent about four years doing it professionally, and I know a thing or two about does and don'ts in baking.

If I take flour, water, yeast, and probably some sugar and other additives to make it more interesting, I can make a nice batch of yeast dough. The yeast dough is definitely more complex than the individual components were separately, and when it rises, it becomes even more so. When I put it in the oven, more changes take place, and with some yeast doughs, making it even more complex.

But what happens if I either keep letting it rise, or leave it in the oven after it's 'done.'

What happens in the oven is obvious. It goes from 'done,' to 'overdone,' to 'burnt,' to 'charred,' and eventually to 'ash.'

And let me tell you, that ash is way less complex than the dough was, or even than the yeast and the wheat were separately. Probably still more complex than water though.

On the other hand, what happens if I let the dough keep rising? Well, first it continues to do what the name says; it keeps rising, fluffing up bigger and bigger. Then after a while the gasses inside expand past its structural ability to support, and it collapses. Not that this structural failure makes a ton of difference to its chemical and biological composition, even if it's no longer good for baking with.

After a while though, it starts to rot. It breaks down further and further, some of that chemical decomposition, some of that biological decomposition as bacteria and whatnot eat away at it, and eventually what you get is nothing but a slurry of nasty goop and juices, only good for fertilizer.


Either way, you will end up with something that is both dead, and less complex than it started out as. The comparison is imperfect of course, because 1: we're already starting with life (the yeast) and sophisticated byproducts of life (yeast, sugar, etc), and 2: there's an intelligent actor (the baker) setting the whole thing up.


The same issues apply to your hypothetical 'gradual accumulation of complexity' though, and much, much worse. In the first place, the 'gradual accumulation of complexity' as I said only goes so far without the interference of already-living things, but on top of that, you have the issue of how much easier it is to reduce complexity.

What happens when you actually have a prolonged 'cooking' of the elements (or chemicals containing the elements) you need for life in an environment that is having energy pumped into it?

The Miller-Urey experiment tried this with heat, but let's also consider 'just' sunlight.

In the conditions where you're adding energy in the form of heat, then if you're heating things enough to spur protein formation or anything resembling that, you are also producing enough heat to carmelize them. If the heat is applied indefinitely (like at a volcanic event), you're going to have things breaking down just as fast as they're 'building up.'

Sunlight is ultimately a 'gentler' and slower version of the same problem. It doesn't 'cook' things, but there's a reason that the term 'sun damage' is particularly well-known in areas closer to the equator. Sunlight puts a bit of heat and other forms of radiation into things, but that radiation breaks things down just as much as it builds them up, unless you have either a living thing (plants with cholorophyll) or the work of an intelligent being (solar panel), in order to make specialized use of that energy.

As an edge case, there's literally striking something with lightning; that energy is functionally a 'one-off,' and thus won't be present to break things back down, buuuuut it's generally way too much at once, and has a purely destructive effect. Even if it didn't, one moment of energy input is absurd as a way to jump complexity by hundreds of orders of magnitudes. It makes about as much sense as Short Circuit or Stealth's use of 'lightning bolt hits AI, makes it self-aware.'


It all basically comes to the same issue. There is no evidence that complexity will grow past a certain level when life isn't involved, and even if it did, you'd need it to grow hundreds of orders of magnitudes in order to arrive at life.

'Gradual accumulation of complexity' is nothing more than a hypothesis, and an easily-disproven one at that. Like so much of evolutionary theory, it's based on looking at a natural process, and then making wild speculative leaps about just how far that process can go, finishing with concluding that 'it's impossible to actually test this meaningfully, so we're going to assume it's true until we find a way to test it that proves it's true.'

It's like seeing a volcano erupt, then assuming that stars are formed by volcanic eruptions throwing particularly large magma balls into the sky.
 

ShadowsOfParadox

Well-known member
Yes, if you have an external source pumping energy into the system, that can let the energy source decay in exchange for increased localized complexity in the system you're focused on.
So like, undersea Volcano Vents? aka, that place we STILL find the most bottom of the sea life?

But, ok, let's say, for the sake of argument, Evolution has no practical solution to biogenesis.

Ok, how does that disprove it? So God made the first bit of life, what changes about the actual theory? Because here's my understanding of how the rest of this goes according to Evolution.

God makes a form of life that can handle existing on the Primordial Earth, then that bit of life does what life does and changes, from there it eventually changes into a bunch of different species and stuff happens and that's why we have a Fossil Record.

Here's my understanding of how the rest of this goes according to Creationism.

God Makes Everything All At Once and Fossils are just a red herring test of faith!
 

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
So like, undersea Volcano Vents? aka, that place we STILL find the most bottom of the sea life?

But, ok, let's say, for the sake of argument, Evolution has no practical solution to biogenesis.

Ok, how does that disprove it? So God made the first bit of life, what changes about the actual theory? Because here's my understanding of how the rest of this goes according to Evolution.

God makes a form of life that can handle existing on the Primordial Earth, then that bit of life does what life does and changes, from there it eventually changes into a bunch of different species and stuff happens and that's why we have a Fossil Record.

Here's my understanding of how the rest of this goes according to Creationism.

God Makes Everything All At Once and Fossils are just a red herring test of faith!

No.

The evolutionists had 'the fossil record formed over millions of years' into textbooks before the existence of DNA was known. They established a narrative about the nature of the fossil record, and have jealously guarded that narrative regardless of how little the fossil record reflects that narrative.

The fossil record actually better fits to an ID explanation for life, because of how it does not reflect 'long gradual changes' that evolutionary theory predicted. It better first 'occasional unlucky schmucks died in the right circumstances to form a fossil, and periodic catastrophes sometimes buried large numbers all at once.'

There's a lot more on the topic, but I'm not going to delve deep into it while Abiogenesis is still at hand.
 

ShadowsOfParadox

Well-known member
The fossil record actually better fits to an ID explanation for life, because of how it does not reflect 'long gradual changes' that evolutionary theory predicted. It better first 'occasional unlucky schmucks died in the right circumstances to form a fossil, and periodic catastrophes sometimes buried large numbers all at once.'
...Dude...
Yes it fucking is chock full of 'long gradual changes'.
The evolutionists had 'the fossil record formed over millions of years' into textbooks before the existence of DNA was known.
So how do you explain the rocks being millions of years old?

EDIT: also, again, a bunch of animals whose biology does not function in the same atmospheric mix as ours does.
 
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Morphic Tide

Well-known member
You need something completely viable, all forming at once.
You don't. Conditions creating vaguely reliable yet utterly random DNA (or RNA) synthesis mechanisms mean the odds go up dramatically, because the odds of genetic material forming have risen enormously. Proto-cells that would never accept selective permeability sufficient for recognizable biochemistry still give some level of insulation from ambient conditions.

There's actually quite a sizable degree that biochemistry can be separated from living things. It's ludicrously unstable and inefficient, but not actually wholly impossible, and once you have an organism we would never actually call viable if we were to study it, its offspring will begin randomizing and improve viability.

What are the simplifying factors? How do they function? What effect do they have upon the math?
The factor in question is that order of genes is almost certainly unimportant, and the effect on the math for the ad-hoc example is bringing it down to (4^100)*4,000, which is a number only 63 digits long. Don't know enough about statistics to tell what the result of 2.5 valid "versions" within each three base pair "byte" would be.
 

ParadiseLost

Well-known member
The fundamental problem with this debate is that it misses the primary point of why people have come to their conclusion.

If you want a materialistic explanation, then you're going to go with evolution because its pretty much the only materialistic explanation. Regardless of the evidence, your perception is that evolution has to be true because of the following syllogism:

I. The origin of life is materialistic.
II. The only plausible materialistic origin of life is evolution.

If you accept these two syllogisms its impossible to disprove evolution regardless of evidence - any evidence against evolution will merely result in a revision.

On the other hand if you're a religious person who disbelieves in evolution and believes in Young Earth Creationism (and generally such people believe in Biblical inerrancy), you have the following syllogism:

I. The Bible is literally (theologically) true.
II. The Bible says that God created the earth is 7 days about 7,000 years ago.

---

The essential result of these two syllogisms mean that arguing statistics or facts is pointless and stupid in this debate, because the fundamental underlying philosophical/religious syllogisms are not being attacked, therefore all evidence will at most result in revisions to the belief, but not the end of the belief itself.

The way to convince someone not to believe in evolution is to convince them that there are powerful immaterial forces (IE: God) at work. The way to convince someone not to believe in Young Earth Creationism is to convince them that Genesis is either false or allegorical.
 

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