Religion Creationism, Evolution and the Bible

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
The point I'm making is that this bar is actually incredibly low. You can, in fact, have a considerable amount of resources wasted on developing new clotting mechanisms before losing previous ones that became redundant. Redundant reproduction producing increased variety leading to that variety eventually losing the previous mode is not at all excluded.


Komodo Dragons have fully-featured backup parthenogenesis to restart sexual reproduction from no surviving males. Also vestigial parthenogenesis in birds. It exists, there's not a single recorded case of it actually working. Valid intermediaries do, in fact, exist, with some that can survive off one of the two and the "earlier" option having a non-functional version.

You are literally saying "There being a single species lacking an earlier trait proves evolution wrong". When the entire point is the random addition, loss, and modification of traits being pruned by the needs of reproductive success. Would you really prefer a God that came up with instinctual sibling-murder and strangulation to browbeat females into mating?

To say nothing of how infallibility is called into question by the vast array of functional problems in human biology...


Chromosomes, to be stable, require multiple packing mechanisms that require stable unpacking to read on-demand, to say nothing of the pileup around telomeres... All of which are wholly unnecessary for bacteria, as they use a loop of DNA. You are literally saying it's impossible because a mechanism that can be reduced is too unlikely.

For reference, bacteria exist with merely 130 thousand base pairs, compared to the 6.3 billion in humans. Over five orders of magnitude, with a lot of the functions existing solely as counters to pressures from other organisms, meaning that the Original Organism can be reduced even more than the simplest of extant bacteria.


What is the evidence in favor of your alternative beyond the "absurd" mainstream? What is your alternative explanation for the purpose of all these horrifying mutations and wasteful functions? To say nothing of the sheer omnipresence of spectacular brutality, of course. It's actually uncommon for predators to wait for prey to finish dying before eating them.

Your counter-points rely on your base of knowledge being used to reckon the current state in isolation. Not a judgement of the possibility-space of abiogenesis, of something living arising from inanimate matter, but obsession over right now seeming absurdly implausible because you insist on checking the odds of right now.

Or, for some absurd reason, think that losing now-redundant functions disproves evolution. And that a God who came up with creatures who nearly always have their first born suffocate to death because they have to be birthed through a pseudopenis that has to be torn and stretched is somehow preferable to "nature doesn't care".

I cannot accept Christian doctrine because nature is too shit for it to make any sense to have an omnibenevolent, omniscient, and omnipotent creator. This is damned near universal of Christian societies as well, no matter how much the Clergy try to stop it, because ditheism with the Devil as the god of evil answers too many of the logical problems.

1. You're still not addressing the root issue of 'the simplest forms of life are hundreds of zeroes level of improbable.' I posited an example with a part of life even simpler than the simplest of bacteria, and you're acting like I was using an example more complex. You even mention how some cellular mechanisms are needed, which fail to address the issue still. And for reference, five orders of magnitude is five zeroes out of the hundred and fifty some, so even if you were proposing a simpler thing, not a more complex thing than the example I gave, you'd still have another 145 zeroes to account for.
2. You're using an atheist's flanderized version of Christian doctrine here. If you knew even the basics of it, you'd know that 'once sin entered into the world, it was cursed.' Looks a lot like a cursed Earth to me.
3. You're still ignoring the issue of 'If this system isn't functional, the organism can't exist at all,' and just hand-waving it away.
4. You're also hand-waving away how much of a resource drag having large parts of non-functional systems is on an organism. If you can carry around something that takes up a significant percentage of body resources for no benefit, but natural selection doesn't weed you out over tens of thousands of generations, then natural selection isn't going to weed out much of anything, and is complete bunk.
5. You yourself are making ideological arguments, rather than scientific arguments on why you reject the idea of Intelligent Design. 'I don't like the idea of what these pieces of evidence say about the character of God, so I'm going with the explanation that doesn't include God.'
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
1. You're still not addressing the root issue of 'the simplest forms of life are hundreds of zeroes level of improbable.' I posited an example with a part of life even simpler than the simplest of bacteria, and you're acting like I was using an example more complex. You even mention how some cellular mechanisms are needed, which fail to address the issue still. And for reference, five orders of magnitude is five zeroes out of the hundred and fifty some, so even if you were proposing a simpler thing, not a more complex thing than the example I gave, you'd still have another 145 zeroes to account for.
2. You're using an atheist's flanderized version of Christian doctrine here. If you knew even the basics of it, you'd know that 'once sin entered into the world, it was cursed.' Looks a lot like a cursed Earth to me.
3. You're still ignoring the issue of 'If this system isn't functional, the organism can't exist at all,' and just hand-waving it away.
4. You're also hand-waving away how much of a resource drag having large parts of non-functional systems is on an organism. If you can carry around something that takes up a significant percentage of body resources for no benefit, but natural selection doesn't weed you out over tens of thousands of generations, then natural selection isn't going to weed out much of anything, and is complete bunk.
5. You yourself are making ideological arguments, rather than scientific arguments on why you reject the idea of Intelligent Design. 'I don't like the idea of what these pieces of evidence say about the character of God, so I'm going with the explanation that doesn't include God.'
Ok, have you ever heard of the 'Watchmaker God' Theory?

Because it posits that the universe is like a watch that the divine made and set in motion in the Big Bang, with the laws of nature built in from the beginning because the divine wanted them there. The theory of evolution and all the other natural laws fit inside this theory without any conflict, as do most religious views short of young earth creationism.

You are also once again not realizing that when you are talking deep time, geological time, just because something has a low order probability of happening does not in any way preclude it from happening. As well, geological time and the stuff that has come about via understanding geology has only reinforced the theory of evolution; without it, no way biodiversity recovers from things like the Permian Mass Extinction or the Chixalub Impact without evolution being a thing.

Frankly all this stuff arguing against the theory of evolution seems to boil down to 2 points of argument:
1) 'Shit's too complex for their not to be a divine hand in how life got the way it is.' This is a rather foolish argument, when you look at this from the perspective of the 'Watchmaker God' idea.

2) 'The theory of evolution is the gateway to atheism/atheism's religion, and thus must be opposed on those grounds.' with any justification being after the fact. This completely ignores that the theory of evolution does not conflict with any religious dogma, except those of young earth creationists.

So I guess it is worth asking, are you a young earth creationist, @LordsFire?
 

ShadowsOfParadox

Well-known member
How about if you expand your starting point to the entire universe?

Of course, another fun question is... Did "life" start with a simple bacteria, or was the first inklings of it more like virii?
 

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
Ok, have you ever heard of the 'Watchmaker God' Theory?

Because it posits that the universe is like a watch that the divine made and set in motion in the Big Bang, with the laws of nature built in from the beginning because the divine wanted them there. The theory of evolution and all the other natural laws fit inside this theory without any conflict, as do most religious views short of young earth creationism.

You are also once again not realizing that when you are talking deep time, geological time, just because something has a low order probability of happening does not in any way preclude it from happening. As well, geological time and the stuff that has come about via understanding geology has only reinforced the theory of evolution; without it, no way biodiversity recovers from things like the Permian Mass Extinction or the Chixalub Impact without evolution being a thing.

Frankly all this stuff arguing against the theory of evolution seems to boil down to 2 points of argument:
1) 'Shit's too complex for their not to be a divine hand in how life got the way it is.' This is a rather foolish argument, when you look at this from the perspective of the 'Watchmaker God' idea.

2) 'The theory of evolution is the gateway to atheism/atheism's religion, and thus must be opposed on those grounds.' with any justification being after the fact. This completely ignores that the theory of evolution does not conflict with any religious dogma, except those of young earth creationists.

So I guess it is worth asking, are you a young earth creationist, @LordsFire?

The opposition I have to the theory of evolution is not theological, it's scientific. In this post yourself, you show the same kind of 'starting from the conclusion and working backwards' thinking, in this line: 'without it, no way biodiversity recovers from things like the Permian Mass Extinction or the Chixalub Impact without evolution being a thing.'

You treat evolution as the only possible answer. There isn't a 'maybe these catastrophic events weren't as bad?' There isn't a 'Maybe various species that were driven near-extinct managed to repopulate afterwards,' there isn't 'maybe species that were kept to small populations by the species that were dominant pre-catastrophe suddenly became much more populace,' no, it's 'Evolution must be the only possible explanation for this!'

I'm well-aware that if one takes a more metaphorical interpretation of Genesis, you can reconcile it with Evolution as a theory of origins to at least some degree.

Which is why I will reiterate, my objection is not theological, it is scientific.

Back when I was a teenager, I was getting 'millions and billions of years of evolution' in class, and 'In the beginning God Created' at church. Like a lot of kids, I'd always thought dinosaurs were really cool, and I'm old enough that Jurassic Park came out when I was young enough to think it was basically the coolest thing ever. I actually rewatched that movie about a week and a half ago, and it occurred to me how it's sad that young folks these days will probably never appreciate how that movie was the first time anyone ever saw Dinosaurs brought to life in such a way. Cheap and (relatively) easy CGI has robbed a lot of wonder from things.

So, I asked myself 'Is this whole evolution thing true or not?'

And I found a lot of interesting things. I found out about Embryology, something disproved in the the ~1860s, but still taught in one of my friend's textbooks in 2004. I found out about Piltdown Man, Halibus Man, I found out how 'Lucy' is a skeleton less than 40% complete and the most 'human' looking part of this 'reconstructed' fossil is the feet, which no part actually remained fossilized.

I found out that evolutionists have a long, storied tradition of lying to create 'proof' of evolution.

I found out how complex DNA is, I found out how complex cellular structures are, I found out how non-Christians like Michael Behe were treated after he published 'Darwin's Black Box,' and David Berlinski's description of the scientific orthodoxy. I found out about nonsensical attempts like 'Punctuated Equilibrium' to explain how the fossil record in no way supports 'long gradual change of species over time' as proposed by Darwin, etc, etc.

I discovered the debate that had taken place between Christian and secular scientists during the Apollo program about how deep the dust of the lunar regolith would be, and how the Christians were right.

I also found that some proponents of 'Christian Science' were of questionable character at best, as a note.


The most important factor though, was when I decided to start studying cellular biology myself, and doing some number crunching of my own.

And the inexorable conclusion was that evolution was at its most credible back in the 1800's, when people barely knew cells existed. The discovery of DNA alone should have kicked evolution out of any kind of scientific credibility, but that was resisted with a vicious dogmatic tenacity at odds with how the 'enlightened rationalist' scientific community generally likes to portray itself.

I didn't start studying and following the ideological consequences of evolutionary thinking until I was more getting into my twenties, after I'd already more or less settled the scientific argument to my satisfaction. And as a note, continuing biological discoveries since then have continued to make it clear how utterly absurd the idea of random chance causing Abiogenesis is.


And also, I keep getting people telling me 'you just don't understand the amount of time involved,' which tells me you haven't actually been reading my posts.

I will try to lay it out again in simple language.

IF YOU TAKE THE ENTIRE ESTIMATED MASS OF THE UNIVERSE, FOR THE ENTIRE ESTIMATED LIFE OF THE UNIVERSE, AND HAVE IT COMPRISED OF NOTHING BUT BUILDING BLOCKS OF DNA, YOU STILL HAVE ODDS WORSE THAN 1 in 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 OF GETTING A SINGLE CHROMOSOME'S WORTH OF DNA.

And that still has not gotten you viable life, just one of many highly complex parts necessary for it.


And that's using the numbers I could personally crunch. As I've said before, if you take Doctor Wickramasinghe's work, you don't have ~150 zeroes, you have 79,850+ zeroes.

The only other 'scientific theories' that are treated as 'default true, literally impossible evidentiary standards required to disprove,' are CRT and human-caused climate change.
 
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ShadowsOfParadox

Well-known member
There isn't a 'maybe these catastrophic events weren't as bad?' There isn't a 'Maybe various species that were driven near-extinct managed to repopulate afterwards,' there isn't 'maybe species that were kept to small populations by the species that were dominant pre-catastrophe suddenly became much more populace,' no, it's 'Evolution must be the only possible explanation for this!'
Because all of these are even less credible answers.

EDIT: Let me just clarify for a moment. NOTHING ALIVE TODAY could survive the Carboniferous. Everything would suffer Oxygen Poisoning. Even the bugs. If nothing else, Evolution is right enough that creatures can change to survive extreme changes in Atmosphere mixes.
 
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Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
The opposition I have to the theory of evolution is not theological, it's scientific. In this post yourself, you show the same kind of 'starting from the conclusion and working backwards' thinking, in this line: 'without it, no way biodiversity recovers from things like the Permian Mass Extinction or the Chixalub Impact without evolution being a thing.'

You treat evolution as the only possible answer. There isn't a 'maybe these catastrophic events weren't as bad?' There isn't a 'Maybe various species that were driven near-extinct managed to repopulate afterwards,' there isn't 'maybe species that were kept to small populations by the species that were dominant pre-catastrophe suddenly became much more populace,' no, it's 'Evolution must be the only possible explanation for this!'

I'm well-aware that if one takes a more metaphorical interpretation of Genesis, you can reconcile it with Evolution as a theory of origins to at least some degree.

Which is why I will reiterate, my objection is not theological, it is scientific.

Back when I was a teenager, I was getting 'millions and billions of years of evolution' in class, and 'In the beginning God Created' at church. Like a lot of kids, I'd always thought dinosaurs were really cool, and I'm old enough that Jurassic Park came out when I was young enough to think it was basically the coolest thing ever. I actually rewatched that movie about a week and a half ago, and it occurred to me how it's sad that young folks these days will probably never appreciate how that movie was the first time anyone ever saw Dinosaurs brought to life in such a way. Cheap and (relatively) easy CGI has robbed a lot of wonder from things.

So, I asked myself 'Is this whole evolution thing true or not?'

And I found a lot of interesting things. I found out about Embryology, something disproved in the the ~1860s, but still taught in one of my friend's textbooks in 2004. I found out about Piltdown Man, Halibus Man, I found out how 'Lucy' is a skeleton less than 40% complete and the most 'human' looking part of this 'reconstructed' fossil is the feet, which no part actually remained fossilized.

I found out that evolutionists have a long, storied tradition of lying to create 'proof' of evolution.

I found out how complex DNA is, I found out how complex cellular structures are, I found out how non-Christians like Michael Behe were treated after he published 'Darwin's Black Box,' and David Berlinski's description of the scientific orthodoxy. I found out about nonsensical attempts like 'Punctuated Equilibrium' to explain how the fossil record in no way supports 'long gradual change of species over time' as proposed by Darwin, etc, etc.

I discovered the debate that had taken place between Christian and secular scientists during the Apollo program about how deep the dust of the lunar regolith would be, and how the Christians were right.

I also found that some proponents of 'Christian Science' were of questionable character at best, as a note.


The most important factor though, was when I decided to start studying cellular biology myself, and doing some number crunching of my own.

And the inexorable conclusion was that evolution was at its most credible back in the 1800's, when people barely knew cells existed. The discovery of DNA alone should have kicked evolution out of any kind of scientific credibility, but that was resisted with a vicious dogmatic tenacity at odds with how the 'enlightened rationalist' scientific community generally likes to portray itself.

I didn't start studying and following the ideological consequences of evolutionary thinking until I was more getting into my twenties, after I'd already more or less settled the scientific argument to my satisfaction. And as a note, continuing biological discoveries since then have continued to make it clear how utterly absurd the idea of random chance causing Abiogenesis is.


And also, I keep getting people telling me 'you just don't understand the amount of time involved,' which tells me you haven't actually been reading my posts.

I will try to lay it out again in simple language.

IF YOU TAKE THE ENTIRE ESTIMATED MASS OF THE UNIVERSE, FOR THE ENTIRE ESTIMATED LIFE OF THE UNIVERSE, AND HAVE IT COMPRISED OF NOTHING BUT BUILDING BLOCKS OF DNA, YOU STILL HAVE ODDS WORSE THAN 1 in 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 OF GETTING A SINGLE CHROMOSOME'S WORTH OF DNA.

And that still has not gotten you viable life, just one of many highly complex parts necessary for it.


And that's using the numbers I could personally crunch. As I've said before, if you take Doctor Wickramasinghe's work, you don't have ~150 zeroes, you have 79,850+ zeroes.

The only other 'scientific theories' that are treated as 'default true, literally impossible evidentiary standards required to disprove,' are CRT and human-caused climate change.
That's a lot of words to say 'Yes, I am a young earth creationist who is back justifying my BS using fringe bullshit'.

I've seen the same BS come from others who tried to act like the geological and fossil record is bunk. Punctuated Equalibrium mixed with the theory of evolution is the best explanation we have for the evidence that has been found in multiple fields of scientific research.

You are pretending that your argument is about science, however it is obviously about backfilling your YEC views by grasping for straws and ignoring any evidence that contradicts it.

Your objection to the theory of evolution also hinges on a 'it's too big a number, cannot be true' simplistic thinking that is rather childish at it's core.

I got my BA in General Geology, I've seen the sorts of arguments you are making both in class and in text books relating shit early geologists had to put up with from Church authorities. Literally the only thing new in your arguments is the lunar regolith estimate bit, which I had never heard of, and from what I had seen and heard the regolith was deeper than anyone expected.

You cloak your actual issue with evolution, that is that it contradicts part in f the timing of biblical events, with a bunch of psuedo-scientific jargon to make it seem like your objection is based in science, when it really isn't.
 

ShieldWife

Marchioness
Oh, I wish that conservative politicians wouldn’t hitch their wagons to creationism. Sure, support the right of creationists to dissent and even to teach their children their beliefs, that’s good, but evolution has been proven beyond any reasonable doubt and then some.

Aside from the mountains of evidence - the fossils, the DNA, the similar anatomical (including vestigial) structures - just the existence of Chromosome 2 in humans is irrefutable proof that humans and other great apes share common ancestry.

Humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes and other apes have 24 pairs. When this was discovered, some scientists predicted that at some point after humans diverged from other apes that a pair of chromosomes fused to lead to this reduction. Many years later, they developed the technology to see chromosomes in more detail and found that Chromosome 2 in humans is actually two other chromosomes fused together with an inactivated centromere and evidence of fused telomeres:

chromosome-fusion.jpg


Chromosome 2
 

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
Oh, I wish that conservative politicians wouldn’t hitch their wagons to creationism. Sure, support the right of creationists to dissent and even to teach their children their beliefs, that’s good, but evolution has been proven beyond any reasonable doubt and then some.

Aside from the mountains of evidence - the fossils, the DNA, the similar anatomical (including vestigial) structures - just the existence of Chromosome 2 in humans is irrefutable proof that humans and other great apes share common ancestry.

Humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes and other apes have 24 pairs. When this was discovered, some scientists predicted that at some point after humans diverged from other apes that a pair of chromosomes fused to lead to this reduction. Many years later, they developed the technology to see chromosomes in more detail and found that Chromosome 2 in humans is actually two other chromosomes fused together with an inactivated centromere and evidence of fused telomeres:

chromosome-fusion.jpg


Chromosome 2

Again, fitting the data to the theory.

So, I'll ask you.

What would your standard for falsification of the theory of evolution be?
 

ShieldWife

Marchioness
Again, fitting the data to the theory.

So, I'll ask you.

What would your standard for falsification of the theory of evolution be?
That isn’t fitting the data to the theory, that is the theory making incredibly accurate predictions. The data matches the theory and that is extremely strong evidence that the theory is correct. there are numerous predictions that evolution has made. Consider that Darwin lived long before the discovery of DNA and yet I’m recent decades all of the data we’ve learned from studying DNA has confirmed evolution - such as Chromosome 2. If humans didn’t share common ancestry with other apes, then God would have to created humans and apes with the express purpose of tricking biologists into believing that they share ancestry once humans learned about DNA.

As for what could falsify evolution, that is a big question because it’s a big theory. There are thousands of bits of evidence that support evolution, some essentially prove evolution. I think that much of this evidence would have to be shown to be false before I could be convinced that evolution is false. If, for example, the fusion of Chromosome were shown to be a conspiracy of scientists faking it, that wouldn’t disprove evolution, but it would be a major bug of evidence gone.

If a man were on trial for murder and there were numerous eye witnesses, DNA evidence, a murder weapon with fingerprints, security camera footage, power residue and his hands, and a confession - what would it take to reasonable convince you of that man’s innocence? It would require showing that all of that evidence was fake or wrong in some way.

So it is with evolution. It’s been proven true with mountains of evidence. To convince me that evolution did not occur, that evidence would have to be proven wrong first, which seems extremely unlikely.


Also, unrelated to the truth or falsehood of evolution - the most popular alternative theory for life involves the claim that day and night existed before the Sun and that two of every species of animal could fit into one boat while Mount Everest was submerged by water. To say that evolution is the best game in town is an understatement.
 

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
That isn’t fitting the data to the theory, that is the theory making incredibly accurate predictions. The data matches the theory and that is extremely strong evidence that the theory is correct. there are numerous predictions that evolution has made. Consider that Darwin lived long before the discovery of DNA and yet I’m recent decades all of the data we’ve learned from studying DNA has confirmed evolution - such as Chromosome 2. If humans didn’t share common ancestry with other apes, then God would have to created humans and apes with the express purpose of tricking biologists into believing that they share ancestry once humans learned about DNA.

As for what could falsify evolution, that is a big question because it’s a big theory. There are thousands of bits of evidence that support evolution, some essentially prove evolution. I think that much of this evidence would have to be shown to be false before I could be convinced that evolution is false. If, for example, the fusion of Chromosome were shown to be a conspiracy of scientists faking it, that wouldn’t disprove evolution, but it would be a major bug of evidence gone.

If a man were on trial for murder and there were numerous eye witnesses, DNA evidence, a murder weapon with fingerprints, security camera footage, power residue and his hands, and a confession - what would it take to reasonable convince you of that man’s innocence? It would require showing that all of that evidence was fake or wrong in some way.

So it is with evolution. It’s been proven true with mountains of evidence. To convince me that evolution did not occur, that evidence would have to be proven wrong first, which seems extremely unlikely.


Also, unrelated to the truth or falsehood of evolution - the most popular alternative theory for life involves the claim that day and night existed before the Sun and that two of every species of animal could fit into one boat while Mount Everest was submerged by water. To say that evolution is the best game in town is an understatement.

This approach is so far from scientific rigor, it's fit to make a researcher cry.

The standard of proof for whether or not a thing is true, is not 'the preponderance of evidence,' (not that Evolution has passed that). It is 'is this reproducible?' and 'has it been falsified?' Did you know that some people claim that there's been mathematics done proving that a bumblebee can't fly? It doesn't matter what they claim about wing area to mass, volume, or anything else, what matters is that the bumblebee can be observed to fly.

Proper scientific rigor and skepticism starts from the position of 'I do not know whether or not this is true. Let us investigate the data, and see what that demonstrates.' There's two types tests you can then formulate.

The first type is 'my theory predicts if X is true, then in Y circumstances, we will find Z.' This is useful for gathering supporting evidence, but it only gets you so far, because it is also possible for other theories to make the same kind of prediction, but based upon a different mechanism.

The second type is 'If my theory is correct, then if X is true in Y circumstances, then Y cannot happen.' This is testing for falsification.

As an example of this, it used to be believed that 'living things were made of a fundamentally different substance than non-living things. It was thought that maggots spontaneously generated in a corpse, because a living thing turned into another living thing. A scientist who did not believe this (I cannot think of his name right now) contested this, believing that maggots were spawned from living flies, and conducted a test where a lump of meat from a fresh corpse was sealed inside of an airtight container (I believe with a transparent top).

If maggots had formed, his own hypothesis that maggots did not spontaneously form, but required the presence of adult flies to be created, would have been falsified. Instead, the idea that they'd spontaneously form was falsified. It wouldn't have mattered how many other supporting pieces of evidence he had for his theory; if maggots had formed on the isolated piece of dead flesh, his theory would have been disproven. Repeat testing to make sure that the sample hadn't been corrupted, there wasn't some other interfering factor, etc, would be appropriate, but if it kept giving the same result, theory disproven.


One of the big problems with evolution, is that evolutionists will not allow the second form of testing to be applied. Their response to the crisis that Irreducible Complexity imposes on Evolution, was to turn Michael Behe into a social pariah for publishing Darwin's Black Box about the issue; the man wasn't even a Christian arguing for Biblical creation, or any other religion's form of it, he just had a scientific criticism.

The same treatment has been applied to those who raise issues about the statistical impossibility of Abiogenesis; hand-waving of 'you just don't understand the amount of time involved,' etc, etc, instead of doing some basic number crunching to show some degree of plausibility.


Of course, the thing is, the evidence for/against evolution position is actually even worse than that, because the evolutionists have a tendency to not talk about how things they once predicted would support evolution, didn't.

The first example of this would be the fossil record. It was originally predicted to show long, gradual species changes, but of course it didn't. Instead evolutionists have come up with justifications for why it doesn't.

Another example, as Bear Ribs has mentioned already, work with Fruit Flies in the Face of Macroevolution designed to accelerate mutation and thus evolution as much as possible have failed to change it into a different creature. Given fruit flies can reach adulthood in 10-12 days, you can get thirty generations in a year in a single line in a test study. All you get out of such research is defective fruit flies, or the same fruit flies. Notably, studies with fruit flies have been being undertaken since 1910.

Similarly with Bacteria, there has yet to be a bacteria that evolves into a different bacteria, even though they can reproduce in as little as thirty minutes. Yet no testing done has yet to create a new species of Bacteria, or even come close.

As I've mentioned before, there was Embryology, concocted by Ernst Haeckel and proven fraudulent in the 1860's, yet still held up as 'proof' a hundred years later to people who didn't know about the fraud.

Piltdown man, where evolutionist Charles Dawson took bits of a human and an orangutan, the skull and jaw in aprticular, did some work with a file, put them together, and presented it as 'proof.' The thing had been bloody painted and chemically treated to make it look like a 'missing link.' It took forty years for this to be recognized as a forgery, which tells you something about how hard evolutionists were testing proof that 'supported' their theory.

Java Man, where a skullcap and a bit of a jaw that were from an ape were found within 40 feet of a human thigh, and then presented as a 'proof' of evolution. Eugene Dubois, the man who found it, failed to mention the two human skullcaps also found nearby for twenty years, and a later expedition sent to investigate the sight found the strata it all had been dug out of had what are considered modern life forms.


There have been millions of man-hours sunk into research to 'prove' evolution, and billions if not trillions of dollars, all of which could have been spent doing more useful things like researching cures for cancer, hepatitis, HIV, or other deadly diseases. Instead it has been wasted on something that provides no practical benefit to living humans.

Critical proof of evolution that has never been provided:

1. An intact chain of fossils showing one species involving into another. Evolutionists now commonly claim it is literally impossible for such a chain to exist, making the claim non-falsifiable.

2. Laboratory work demonstrating anything even approaching species turning into another species. Evolutionists now commonly claim that it is not possible to get this within a timeframe less than millions of years, again making the claim non-falsifiable.

3. A plausible mechanism for Abiogenesis. There is literally not even a plausible speculation as yet for how life could have arisen from inanimate matter. There's plenty of speculation in general, but nothing that has even a shred of actual evidentiary support.


Meanwhile, in the 'reasons that evolution is almost certainly not true' category we have:

1. Irreducible Complexity. The standard evolutionist hand-wave is, again, 'lots and lots of time,' while also dismissing how you both need more time than the universe is speculated to exist for, and how incomplete non-viable systems surviving in a species over thousands of generations directly contravenes natural selection.

2. The fact that every complex mechanism we observe in reality other than life has an Intelligent Designer behind it.

3. The number of times the fossil record 'suddenly and abruptly' shows a whole ton of life forms that aren't in deeper layers, instead of the long, slow, gradual emergence of species that evolution as a theory of origins predicts.


The only supporting 'proof' I have ever seen for evolution has always been things that are not just equally easily explained by the Intelligent Design hypothesis, but are in fact more easily explained by the Intelligent Design hypothesis. I have been tracking this debate for twenty years, and the closest I've seen to new 'evidence' in support of evolution emerge is 'this bacteria can now partially digest something it couldn't digest before.'

Whereas the increased understanding of how complex protein synthesis and epigenetics has made the amount of complexity evolution has to account for increase by entire additional orders of magnitude.

'More time' is not an incantation for some magic spell that absolves the need to present evidence. 'Even more time' doesn't do it either, especially for those of us who know that the atheists were regularly upping the estimated age of Earth and the universe through the 20th century as they were confronted again and again by how ridiculous their claims were.


I'll close this post out by dropping some quotes:

From Evolutionary Biologists (kind of the opposite of young earth creationists) Lynn Margulis and Dorion Sagan in 2002:
“Speciation, whether in the remote Galápagos, in the laboratory cages of the drosophilosophers, or in the crowded sediments of the paleontologists, still has never been directly traced.”

From David Berlinski, Agnostic (or at least he was at the time of the quote) on the culture and attitude among 'scientific' atheists:
“Has anyone provided proof of God’s inexistence? Not even close. Has quantum cosmology explained the emergence of the universe or why it is here? Not even close. Have our sciences explained why our universe seems to be fine-tuned to allow for the existence of life? Not even close. Are physicists and biologists willing to believe in anything so long as it is not religious thought? Close enough. Has rationalism and moral thought provided us with an understanding of what is good, what is right, and what is moral? Not close enough. Has secularism in the terrible 20th century been a force for good? Not even close, to being close. Is there a narrow and oppressive orthodoxy in the sciences? Close enough. Does anything in the sciences or their philosophy justify the claim that religious belief is irrational? Not even in the ball park. Is scientific atheism a frivolous exercise in intellectual contempt? Dead on.”

From Bacteriologist Alan Linton:
"But where is the experimental evidence? None exists in the literature claiming that one species has been shown to evolve into another. Bacteria, the simplest form of independent life, are ideal for this kind of study, with generation times of 20 to 30 minutes, and populations achieved after 18 hours. But throughout 150 years of the science of bacteriology, there is no evidence that one species of bacteria has changed into another, in spite of the fact that populations have been exposed to potent chemical and physical mutagens and that, uniquely, bacteria possess extrachromosomal, transmissible plasmids. Since there is no evidence for species changes between the simplest forms of unicellular life, it is not surprising that there is no evidence for evolution from prokaryotic to eukaryotic cells, let alone throughout the whole array of higher multicellular organisms. "
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder

Evolution in action, thanks to Chernobyl's radiation zones.

The idea that evolution and environmental adaptation are separate things is part of the problem here.

Bacle, you can be anti a theory, without being certain what will/should replace it.

Not that I'm anti either of these theories. I don't know enough to be sure, either way.
Except there are no alternate theories to the theory of evolution which do not go into YEC rhetoric, or that do not dismiss the majority of the fossil record because they do not understand how hard it is to get fossils preserved in the first place.

Futurama actually did a pretty good episode on this whole debate, and how crap the arguments against evolution actually are:

 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
@Bacle, the mere fact you want to use Futurama as evidence of anything in science is telling.
The episode is relevant because the Ape Professor is using the same sorts of arguments @LordsFire is using, and they are similarly bunk.

As well, it is a source he can hardly accuse of being Lefty or Woke.

Dismissing what is said in that vid out of hand, instead of understanding the point it is trying to make, is foolish.
 

Morphic Tide

Well-known member
I posited an example with a part of life even simpler than the simplest of bacteria, and you're acting like I was using an example more complex.
You posited a part that is vastly more complex than remotely necessary for the function it performs, meaning your numbers will be enormously lower than reality.

And for reference, five orders of magnitude is five zeroes out of the hundred and fifty some
Given that any equation for such an estimate I can think of is going to be combinatorial growth, removing five orders of magnitude from the starting number will shave off vastly more than just the five orders of magnitude themselves. An increase of one percent a hundred thousand times (10^5) ends up multiplied by a number 432 digits long, in fact.

With genetics, this is quartering the odds hundreds of millions of times between that single chromosome and a bacterial genome.

Edit: For reference, 4^100 is 60 digits, 4^10,000 is 6,020 digits, and 4^9,900 is 5,960. Meanwhile, taking the last hundred off 4^1,000 goes from 602 digits to 541. Go ahead and try to wrap your head around the obscenely vast the gulf between 4^130,000 and 4^134,000,000 is to understand just how profoundly broken your estimate is.

Edit 2: Actually, I'll give you Wolfram Alpha's results: The combinations of 1/46th of the human genome, assuming I'm recalling correctly that such combinations are simply options^elements, are a number 80,676,039 digits long, while for a 130 kilo-base-pair bacterial genome it's 78,268 digits. Three orders of magnitudes of digits of an input number.

You're using an atheist's flanderized version of Christian doctrine here
Can you name a single major denomination that rejects the omnibenevolence of God? Because the issue I described is that this makes no sense, even with a "cursed" world, with just how comprehensively nature ignores Christian ethics. There are vital ecological niches that fail to make sense, there are massive categories of life that can only make sense as part of it.

Quite literally, the world would not work without some of these things. The biosphere continuing to function through these changes demands that the Creator specifically plan for that eventuality, which makes the sheer extremity of nature violating those ethics incomprehensible. If this is what God trying to contain the damage looks like, why should we listen?

The amount of layers of needing God to be impossible to understand removes any point of having the First Cause be an actor. To say nothing of how utterly pointless it makes the "in my image" line. Hence the inescapable notion of a Devil with powers capable of genuinely opposing God, as it removes any need for the vast archives of debates trying to resolve the issues.

You're still ignoring the issue of 'If this system isn't functional, the organism can't exist at all,'
What's the problem with an intermediate period where aesexual and sexual reproduction co-exist before the former is lost as an increasingly vestigial trait relative to the various advantages of the sexual mechanism?
 
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Morphic Tide

Well-known member
You forgot about Lysenkoism!
…Lysenkoism is still evolution, just not the accepted genetic mutation version. That's one of the big problems with disproving "the theory of evolution", because it isn’t actually one extremely specific set of material observations, it's a broad idea about how variation in life came about.
 

ShadowsOfParadox

Well-known member
"But where is the experimental evidence? None exists in the literature claiming that one species has been shown to evolve into another. Bacteria, the simplest form of independent life, are ideal for this kind of study, with generation times of 20 to 30 minutes, and populations achieved after 18 hours. But throughout 150 years of the science of bacteriology, there is no evidence that one species of bacteria has changed into another, in spite of the fact that populations have been exposed to potent chemical and physical mutagens and that, uniquely, bacteria possess extrachromosomal, transmissible plasmids. Since there is no evidence for species changes between the simplest forms of unicellular life, it is not surprising that there is no evidence for evolution from prokaryotic to eukaryotic cells, let alone throughout the whole array of higher multicellular organisms. "
Feathered Wings did not exist until Archeopteryx.

Whales still have hip bones despite having no structure we'd recognize as hips.

There was a point where the Atmosphere contained essentially NO Oxygen and another point where there was enough Oxygen to kill anything living today.

How exactly do you explain this without species changing? What, did God have to use prototypes to figure out how to make birds?

Here's a question, how many of those experiments involved opening a new niche with no competition just barely adjacent to what the species already did and/or closing off the niche they existed in previously? How many were just "let's stick this poison in and hope".

Oh wait, your own quote says "chemical and physical mutagens", no mentions of niches. Yeah, I'm not surprised you don't find speciation where you create circumstances for hardier variants.

Here's some speciation for you. Pathogens.

EDIT: Speaking of Transitional Fossils

Did a Google Search... oh look, the Fossil Record is, in fact, chock full of all sort of transitional fossils... Just because the ones that got movies aren't, doesn't mean they aren't there.
 
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Syzygy

Well-known member
the most popular alternative theory for life involves the claim that day and night existed before the Sun and that two of every species of animal could fit into one boat while Mount Everest was submerged by water.
I am not arguing against evolution, as I find it to be a perfectly serviceable model for the time being, but are either of the two scenarios above strictly impossible? Are there not stranger phenomenon known to exist in the universe?

Also, why is opposition to evolution consistently attributed to Christianity alone? I'm fairly certain its myriad branches do not hold a monopoly on the position.
 

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