United States Confederate Statues, symbols, and memorials debate thread

Urabrask Revealed

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Considering that the phrase was only added to currency in 1957 as a political stunt, it's really not a big deal one way or the other.
I disagree. The "people" trying to remove "In God we trust" are communists and infidels that are trying to destroy our culture, piece by piece. So their votes should be ignored.
 

ATP

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"From Many, One" This goes back to the founding of our country, and it very much does apply to our country, which is truly diverse whether you or the leftists like it or not.
Diversive - yes.But - in protestant way.USA later tolerated catholics and other christians,but state was protestant.
So,"In God we trust" is part of USA,even if officially added in 1957.Remove that,and there is no USA.
 

Abhorsen

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Why not have both?
To show the godless commies we are Christians while also going back to the founders?
Because in our founding we explicitly said that we won't be a Christian nation legally, so having either "In God We Trust" and Christmas as a federal holiday are both bad, as they violate the first amendment.
 

Zachowon

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Because in our founding we explicitly said that we won't be a Christian nation legally, so having either "In God We Trust" and Christmas as a federal holiday are both bad, as they violate the first amendment.
So we shouldn't have Christmas as a federal holiday?
Should we make every religions major holidays a federal holiday
 

LordsFire

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Because in our founding we explicitly said that we won't be a Christian nation legally, so having either "In God We Trust" and Christmas as a federal holiday are both bad, as they violate the first amendment.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof "

When the Fed, State, and local governments stop trying to actively prohibit the free exercise thereof, but almost exclusively for Christians, we can look at removing a statement that's not tied to any specific religion from our currency.
 

S'task

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Because in our founding we explicitly said that we won't be a Christian nation legally, so having either "In God We Trust" and Christmas as a federal holiday are both bad, as they violate the first amendment.
No, they don't.

The interpretation of the Establishment clause that prohibits those ideas is a very marginal one that has never held any sway in interpretation of the clause by the courts, outside of Justice Ginsburg's radical dreams, and the idea that the Federal Government would not recognize God or was founded as a purely secular state by the founders is utterly ridiculous and by evidence allow me to present the reverse of the Great Seal of the United States:


Why is this evidence against you claim? Firstly, the reverse of the Great Seal contains imagery that is EXPLICITLY Christian and was understood as explicitly Christian at the time it was adopted. That imagery? The Eye of Providence within a Triangle.

What, you thought that was some symbol of the Illuminati or just some generic symbol for a generic non-sectarian idea of God or some symbol of Freemasonry? No, the Eye of Providence, especially when surrounded by an Triangle is explicitly a reference to the Orthodox Christian view of God, with the triangle representing the Christian idea of the Trinity.

As to it's use by Freemasons, you have the connection backwards. Freemasons (and the Illuminati) adopted the Eye of Providence Symbol in the 1790s, whereas the United States adopted it in the 1780s. In short, both the Illuminati and Freemasons took up the symbol due to it's association with the United States and what the new country represented, rather than the United State adopting it because of some conspiracy theory.

Secondly, to further support the idea that the Founders who adopted and wrote the Establishment clause had no care about referencing God in official symbols is the Latin phrase "Annuit Coeptis". Meaning "Favors our undertaking." While it's popularly translated as "Providence favors our undertaking" due to it being understood as being linked to the Eye of Providence, as I already showed at the time of it's adoption the "Eye of Providence" was understood to be a reference to God as understood by Christianity, thus, the translation can be equally understood as "God favors our undertaking."
 

Abhorsen

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So we shouldn't have Christmas as a federal holiday?
Should we make every religions major holidays a federal holiday
No, no religion should have a federal holiday.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof "

When the Fed, State, and local governments stop trying to actively prohibit the free exercise thereof, but almost exclusively for Christians, we can look at removing a statement that's not tied to any specific religion from our currency.
I too want them to stop preventing the free exercise thereof. Laws that try to make Hobby Lobby fund what they see as abortion or forcing Catholic adoption agencies to allow gay couples are also wrong. I just also see this as wrong too. Not a big wrong, or even one that's worth any political effort, but still a small wrong.

No, they don't.

The interpretation of the Establishment clause that prohibits those ideas is a very marginal one that has never held any sway in interpretation of the clause by the courts, outside of Justice Ginsburg's radical dreams, and the idea that the Federal Government would not recognize God or was founded as a purely secular state by the founders is utterly ridiculous and by evidence allow me to present the reverse of the Great Seal of the United States:
I get the founders used some of it, but they were not perfect, and also violated a bunch of the rest of the constitution also, including the Sedition Act violating freedom of the press, etc.

And if I recall, the reason that it hasn't been overturned is solely because it is viewed as 'ceremonial deism', i.e. it has lost all religious significance and is just a patriotic statement. Personally, I don't buy that, but that's the excuse it's let in under.
 

Zachowon

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No, no religion should have a federal holiday.

I too want them to stop preventing the free exercise thereof. Laws that try to make Hobby Lobby fund what they see as abortion or forcing Catholic adoption agencies to allow gay couples are also wrong. I just also see this as wrong too. Not a big wrong, or even one that's worth any political effort, but still a small wrong.


I get the founders used some of it, but they were not perfect, and also violated a bunch of the rest of the constitution also, including the Sedition Act violating freedom of the press, etc.

And if I recall, the reason that it hasn't been overturned is solely because it is viewed as 'ceremonial deism', i.e. it has lost all religious significance and is just a patriotic statement. Personally, I don't buy that, but that's the excuse it's let in under.
You would lose majority support of you wanted to make Christmas no longer a federal holiday.

You want everyone to work even if they do celebrate the religion?
Because now families that celebrate won't get extra pay if they have to work Christmas. Now you are making federal employees work a day they would rather spend with thier families.
Let's get rid of Thanksgiving as it is based in Christian roots as well.

How does making Christmas a federal holiday go against the first amendment?
 

Abhishekm

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The more I age the more I agree with Mr.Burns. Atheists really should be made to work Christmas. 😈

Edit: As a contract worker I could use the money.😅
 
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Abhorsen

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You would lose majority support of you wanted to make Christmas no longer a federal holiday.

You want everyone to work even if they do celebrate the religion?
Because now families that celebrate won't get extra pay if they have to work Christmas. Now you are making federal employees work a day they would rather spend with thier families.
Let's get rid of Thanksgiving as it is based in Christian roots as well.

How does making Christmas a federal holiday go against the first amendment?
It's quite literally establishing a religion. Christmas is a religious holiday celebrating the birth of Jesus. Same with giving people the day off for Yom Kippur, for example.

Thanksgiving by contrast celebrates getting enough food to survive through winter, which was very much in doubt to the Puritans, along with the first one celebrating an friendship with the Wampanoag Indian tribe. It has been basically completely secularized, as practically every American celebrates it regardless of religion, the exceptions being very religious sects.
 

Abhishekm

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It's quite literally establishing a religion. Christmas is a religious holiday celebrating the birth of Jesus. Same with giving people the day off for Yom Kippur, for example.

Thanksgiving by contrast celebrates getting enough food to survive through winter, which was very much in doubt to the Puritans, along with the first one celebrating an friendship with the Wampanoag Indian tribe. It has been basically completely secularized, as practically every American celebrates it regardless of religion, the exceptions being very religious sects.
To be fair, the argument for keeping it has been that Christmas is more of an excuse for people to party in winter and for stores to have a second sales season after black Friday than anything.

Far be it from me to argue against people wishing to strike down one more no work free gibs day for government workers though. Heck abolish all paid federal holidays. Thats what vacation days are for anyway ya slobs.
 
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Captain X

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Why not have both?
To show the godless commies we are Christians while also going back to the founders?
I'm not. A lot of Americans aren't.

So we shouldn't have Christmas as a federal holiday?
Should we make every religions major holidays a federal holiday
I'm pretty indifferent about it, but I'd argue it's pretty well grandfathered in. I suppose others might push for just changing the name to some kind of more universal "winter holiday" but that would be pretty lame. Hell, I still stubbornly insist on using BC and AD for dates just because BCE and CE are lame. And there's nothing wrong with recognizing Christianity's contributions to our society, which includes the current dating system.
 

Zachowon

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It's quite literally establishing a religion. Christmas is a religious holiday celebrating the birth of Jesus. Same with giving people the day off for Yom Kippur, for example.

Thanksgiving by contrast celebrates getting enough food to survive through winter, which was very much in doubt to the Puritans, along with the first one celebrating an friendship with the Wampanoag Indian tribe. It has been basically completely secularized, as practically every American celebrates it regardless of religion, the exceptions being very religious sects.
Christmas didn't start out as Christian ya know...
I'm not. A lot of Americans aren't.


I'm pretty indifferent about it, but I'd argue it's pretty well grandfathered in. I suppose others might push for just changing the name to some kind of more universal "winter holiday" but that would be pretty lame. Hell, I still stubbornly insist on using BC and AD for dates just because BCE and CE are lame. And there's nothing wrong with recognizing Christianity's contributions to our society, which includes the current dating system.
Our nation was still founded in Christian principles.
I'm not a Christian either.
It is better that we have a nation that at least recognizes a God exists then a godless commie one.
Because Commies don't beilive in freedom if religion.

And I fully agree, it is well ingrained and idk why people had to change it
 
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