Catachan (Warhammer40k) vs Various Invasions

[Husky_Khan]

Deeply relevant to this discussion of the NCR and Brotherhood.

 

[Scooby Doo]

Yeah I don't get the logic in the argument, like oh you lost to 1:20 odds so your weapons and armor is garbage or very weak.

Lolwut?

It'd be like saying Spacemarines are garbage because one got killed by a wooden spear.

Omit context and you can say, if Spess Mahrines are so good fast and strong and durable and elite wHy dID tHey DiE tO sHaRp wOoD from a baseline human.

 

[Battlegrinder]

Uh it's not, where in the lore does it say physical attacks can surpass the power of a laser weapon let alone crude melee weapons?

Your conjecture is based on personal headcanon not anything sourced from terminals/holotapes/official guides or anything canon.

So, you believe that if you gave a trained swordsman an assult rifle, he'd be able to use it just as effectively as a trained soldier (and vice versa)?

I did take that into consideration, I don't think you've played the game because there is no roof entrance. Likely because it's collapsed or sealed off as most sections. You're making a point on a non existent feature.

There must be roof access somewhere, it would be needed to maintain and repair the equipment on the roof, or just maintain the roof itself.

You explicitly stated that the proof of the facility being damaged was because the player character could repair damage power panels, this is false. Now you're switching to using my own source which keep in mind is never stated in game but rather the official guide (I don't think you've played New Vegas).

Sunshine Boogie

No, you can repair damaged panels. And I have played NV. It's been years and years, but I've played it.

Here is me throwing a grenade with out exposing line of sight, clearly you're wrong.

You're misunderstanding what I said. My point was that you would never get that close with the lasers as powerful as you claim, not that it's impossible to throw a grenade in an arc.

2. Nothing is "Proof" only resistant, that's what Power Armor is at least for up to the T-51 Model. Not being invulnerable doesn't negate it's resistance, if it wasn't resistant it wouldn't have been possible to escape without getting gunned down to the last man.

Ok, so how do you intend to square your claims about the bullet resistance of power armor with your claim that using grenades against power armored troops is an more effective way to engage them instead of just shooting them?

Yeah I don't get the logic in the argument, like oh you lost to 1:20 odds your weapons and armor is garbage or very weak.

Not garbage. But not as strong as you're claiming they are. Remember, military forces have won engagements with such lopsided odds (Roakes Drift being the most famous example), you can't just keep harping on the fact that the BOS was outnumbered so obviously they were doomed.

 

[Husky_Khan]

I honestly lost track of what particular detail y'all were even arguing about.

I do like the idea of a Quest or RP taking place on an Mothership Zeta type mothership though. That sounds fun. I remember the handful of wacky characters that were encountered in the original DLC. There was the Samurai guy, the Cowboy who knew about epoxy, the Alaskan War Veteran and his soon to be dead friends ( ), the reformed Slaver whose also a gearhead and the little girl from Chronicles of Riddick: Dark Athena.

Oh but yeah... to the original point, *circles back via the quotes* Oh yeah Math is gross. I do tend to think of Laser Rifles as only marginally more effective than their in-universe projectile equivalents as well I guess. *shrug* I think there's a general brainbug in the fandom with default weapons whether its a humble Blaster from Star Wars vaporizing chunks of ferrocrete in Cloud City, blasting out chunks of ablative walls in Mos Eisley's space dock, roasting Luke's adopted parents, taking out Sandcrawler tracks etc or just nicking Leia in the arm. Same issues came up with Staff Weapons in early Stargate and with 40K Lasgun Flashlights in perpetuity, as well as Phasers in Star Trek I guess. But at least Fallout isn't suffering from the curse of VARIABLE YIELDS yet.

 

[Scooby Doo]

So, you believe that if you gave a trained swordsman an assult rifle, he'd be able to use it just as effectively as a trained soldier (and vice versa)?

No obviously not but the damage output of a gun won't matter in whose hands it is, the only thing experience and training will help is with accuracy.

An AK-47 is NOT going to hit with tens of times more energy in the hands of a Navy Seal than it would with a Russian Conscript fresh out of boot camp.

There must be roof access somewhere, it would be needed to maintain and repair the equipment on the roof, or just maintain the roof itself.

Perhaps when it was still being maintained two hundred years ago, it's the burden of proof to you to prove that there is still a valid entrance to the roof.

Would be really simple to provide if it's true but unfortunately it seems that is not the case. No entrance to the roof is further supported by BOS survivors of Helios saying it was "hardly defensible"

Ramos: "I'm sure someone's told you all this before. Several years back, we were running our chapter out the HELIOS One solar power station. Our Elder at the time, Elijah, had some kind of obsession with the place. Which is the only reason we stayed as long as we did. That place was hardly defensible

Sunshine Boogie

No, you can repair damaged panels. And I have played NV. It's been years and years, but I've played it.

Bro that isn't even in the same location, that's in Nellie Airfield which never had any NCR or BOS fight them.

You're misunderstanding what I said. My point was that you would never get that close with the lasers as powerful as you claim, not that it's impossible to throw a grenade in an arc.

It is tho, there's no clear line of site because of the hills, it'd be a game of wack ol mole while they get picked off from various angles.

Ok, so how do you intend to square your claims about the bullet resistance of power armor with your claim that using grenades against power armored troops is an more effective way to engage them instead of just shooting them?

Grenades pack a lot more power than rifles, explosives will have more concussive force behind them than rifle rounds. It's very possible small arms fire contributed to damaging the armor but there's nothing to suggest only small arms were the leading cause to dispatching the Brotherhood.

The Battle for Helios is left pretty ambiguous for a reason, it's not like they outright said "oh year we just shot them with a lot of 5.56 and they went down like chumps".

Not garbage. But not as strong as you're claiming they are. Remember, military forces have won engagements with such lopsided odds (Roakes Drift being the most famous example), you can't just keep harping on the fact that the BOS was outnumbered so obviously they were doomed.

The difference you're neglecting is that the Brotherhood didn't have the logistics to prolong a military engagement, the equivalent would be Operation Redwing.

Multiple Navy seals were defeated and routed by a large group of Taliban 20-35 strong which is far less than the 15-20 ratio of the Brotherhood.

 

[Battlegrinder]

No obviously not but the damage output of a gun won't matter in whose hands it is, the only thing experience and training will help is with accuracy.

An AK-47 is NOT going to hit with tens of times more energy in the hands of a Navy Seal than it would with a Russian Conscript fresh out of boot camp.

I think we're talking past one another. I am not arguing that fallout gameplay is a 1:1 match to the "reality" of the setting, so points like this aren't a rebuttal, because I'm not saying that obviously learning to us a gun means the bullets will hit harder. I'm saying they represent how well you can effectively use those weapons, and a trained user will obviously be able to make better use of their equipment compared to an amatuer.

Perhaps when it was still being maintained two hundred years ago, it's the burden of proof to you to prove that there is still a valid entrance to the roof.

I think that's an unreasonable demand, given that the building must have roof access somewhere.

I also think you are stuck on an overly literal interpretation of the game world there, as the "real" helios probably doesn't match how it's rendered in game, much as New Vegas probably has more than a few dozen people living in it, the NCR embassy is not a crumbling wreck that hasn't been maintained or repaired (what, does the NCR not have the ability to make plaster and fix up the walls in their buildings), power armor in 3/NV doesn't make sense with how it's shown to work in 4, etc.

And before you say anything about me being inconsistent here, I take the fallout games as being a very rough picture of what the "real" setting is (actually, I argue that the setting depicted by fallout 3 and NV is not the same one from 4, and that 1 and 2 are also not the same setting as the later games, but this isn't really the place for that discussion), and the exact elements of that setting are probably something we can't pin down.

Would be really simple to provide if it's true but unfortunately it seems that is not the case. No entrance to the roof is further supported by BOS survivors of Helios saying it was "hardly defensible"

That doesn't really support your idea. The Brotherhood preferentially operates out of hardened military bunkers, what they consider "defensible" is a bit slanted. Moreover, the fact that the position wasn't defensible doesn't mean it was indefensible because there was no roof access.

Bro that isn't even in the same location, that's in Nellie Airfield which never had any NCR or BOS fight them.

Ah, oops. I remembered there was a quest about fixing solar panels, and needing to get spares from the Helios area for it, and mixed up the details.

The difference you're neglecting is that the Brotherhood didn't have the logistics to prolong a military engagement, the equivalent would be Operation Redwing.

Multiple Navy seals were defeated and routed by a large group of Taliban 20-35 strong which is far less than the 15-20 ratio of the Brotherhood.

Even by your argument that doesn't line up, you cite Ramos complaining about the position being too difficult to defend, not that they couldn't effectively hold the position because of supply issues. We can cite winning and losing battles where there was a lopsided number of combatants all day, I don't think that's going to go anywhere, and we're kind of getting out into the weeds here.


If you'll recall, my original point was to note that I think you're overstating the sort of firepower fallout forces can toss around, with stuff like 1 hit kill super laser and power armor that can tank a dozen of those super powered laser shots in the exact same spot in a row being generally unsupported by the overall tone of the games, which paint lasers as being a side grade to conventional firearms and power armor as a valuable tool, but not something that lets to, say, run into a gang of poorly equipped raiders and wipe them out without any fear of them turning the tables.

 

[Scooby Doo]

I think we're talking past one another. I am not arguing that fallout gameplay is a 1:1 match to the "reality" of the setting, so points like this aren't a rebuttal, because I'm not saying that obviously learning to us a gun means the bullets will hit harder. I'm saying they represent how well you can effectively use those weapons, and a trained user will obviously be able to make better use of their equipment compared to an amatuer.

Hmm I don't think that makes much sense either, Star Paladin Cross has an Energy Weapons skill of 50 but is inferior to Sarah (61) and in order for laser weapons to be effective against Enclave you need at least her level or above.

Cross is an enhanced cyborg and also the highest ranked Soldier in that Chapter and like all BOS has received training all their life, not to mention Cross has been alive longer than the player character and was the one that escorted them as an infant to Vault 101.


Are you telling me a 19 year old who never touched an energy weapon in their life or got training for it is going to start out performing with guns that trained Veterans have used all their life all with in the time span of one canonical year or less?

Do you know how ridiculous that sounds for an argument, even for FO?

So the BOS are borderline retarded that a 19 year old can pick up a gun and start blasting away far better than them not on par with the Brotherhood but better.

I think that's an unreasonable demand, given that the building must have roof access somewhere.

Perhaps 200 years ago, it's not unreasonable to say the path has become inaccessible after two hundred years of no maintenance.

Do you have evidence that suggests that there is absolutely no reason the path couldn't have collapsed from the passage of time?

I also think you are stuck on an overly literal interpretation of the game world there, as the "real" helios probably doesn't match how it's rendered in game, much as New Vegas probably has more than a few dozen people living in it, the NCR embassy is not a crumbling wreck that hasn't been maintained or repaired (what, does the NCR not have the ability to make plaster and fix up the walls in their buildings), power armor in 3/NV doesn't make sense with how it's shown to work in 4, etc.

And before you say anything about me being inconsistent here, I take the fallout games as being a very rough picture of what the "real" setting is (actually, I argue that the setting depicted by fallout 3 and NV is not the same one from 4, and that 1 and 2 are also not the same setting as the later games, but this isn't really the place for that discussion), and the exact elements of that setting are probably something we can't pin down.

That's just personal head canon, obviously there can be artistic license in play in some cases but we can't start imagining things that aren't even referenced to exist. (A terminal entry or dialogue statement or map location would be enough heck just a visual image of the door or access hatch)

And no neither faction had logistics to maintain the appearance to 21st century 5 star quality palace, the NCR could barely afford maintaining a military presence while fighting Caesar let alone dabble in the cosmetics for the infrastructure.

That doesn't really support your idea. The Brotherhood preferentially operates out of hardened military bunkers, what they consider "defensible" is a bit slanted. Moreover, the fact that the position wasn't defensible doesn't mean it was indefensible because there was no roof access.

1. It kinda does, the Brotherhood in FO4 also indicate that the Cambridge Police station is a defensible position so you don't need to come close to military bunkers to be considered defensive.

2. Your whole argument relies on the rooftop negating the advantages the NCR would have, if this was enough of a tide turner the BOS survivor would say something along the lines of "We took positions on the rooftop but there numbers were still too much"

Instead they indicated strategical location had just as much playing a part as did the overwhelming numbers and dwindling supplies.

So once again, multiple avenue of attacks (Three avenue of attacks provide hills for cover and one provide a vantage point where cross fires can be achieved) absolutely no cover outdoors for the fighter which exposed them to any heavy hitting ordinance with far greater ease than the NCR, the Brotherhood also having limited numbers would have to split there forces at least in three (One force to guard the main entrance, the other to guard the side and the last to guard Elijah who we know had a force of Knights talking to him.)

Putting a balanced ratio of 13-26 Knights to defend against each point from around 195-300 NCR Troopers each who on each front would have to only score 13 to 6 kills to come out winning per the lore.

We also know due to logistical issues they couldn't afford to bunker down to a siege because the entire Mojave force was there and they don't produce they only scavenge. Which limits them to what they can carry.

Ah, oops. I remembered there was a quest about fixing solar panels, and needing to get spares from the Helios area for it, and mixed up the details.

It's fine it happens

Even by your argument that doesn't line up, you cite Ramos complaining about the position being too difficult to defend, not that they couldn't effectively hold the position because of supply issues. We can cite winning and losing battles where there was a lopsided number of combatants all day, I don't think that's going to go anywhere, and we're kind of getting out into the weeds here.

Wave upon wave of NCR troopers hit us from all directions. We held out for a time, but we were grossly outnumbered, and they had more men than we had ammo. Eventually our positions collapsed.

It's one of the causes, operation Sunburst resulted in Brotherhood loss because of

1. Poor positioning
2. Lack of resources to sustain fighting (There was more men than they had ammo)
3. Heavily Outnumbered
4. Stuck on the Defensive

If we take the ammo claim at face value then their total ammunition would be at max one MFC (12 rounds per cell) per fighter (40 BOS vs 600 NCR so one magazine each for 480 shots.

or 80 BOS vs 1,600 NCR so one magazine each for 960 shots.

If you'll recall, my original point was to note that I think you're overstating the sort of firepower fallout forces can toss around, with stuff like 1 hit kill super laser and power armor that can tank a dozen of those super powered laser shots in the exact same spot in a row being generally unsupported by the overall tone of the games, which paint lasers as being a side grade to conventional firearms and power armor as a valuable tool, but not something that lets to, say, run into a gang of poorly equipped raiders and wipe them out without any fear of them turning the tables.

That's what happens in the Pitt tho.

T-45 Armor users wipe out most of a massive organized Raider gang with out any deaths. One who got knocked out by collapsing debris than ruled over the surviving Raiders because they were afraid of his power armor.

 

[Scooby Doo]

For those doubting the power armor effectiveness of the armor

Kodiak: "Nah. The amazing thing is Elder Lyons. He risked everything -- went in outmanned and outgunned. I'll never be able to thank him enough.

Wernher: "Well, as bad as The Pitt is, it used to be worse. Much worse. It was complete chaos. Every man for himself. About the time I was born, those Brotherhood guys swept through the place. Killed anything that put up a fight. More'n half the place was dead by the time they were done. It was a slaughter. But they got the worst of the worst. If it weren't for the Brotherhood sweeping the place, I doubt Ashur would have been able to get control of as much as he has."

The Pitt had useful technology, but it was suicide to stay here. So when an explosion left me buried in the Mill, my brothers were sure I was dead. I don't blame them for leaving. I probably would have. We thought nothing could live in The Pitt. We were wrong.

Marie, you know those fights in the Mill's arena? Well, its first fight was when I woke up to someone pulling me out from a pile of rubble. At first I thought it was my brothers pulling me to safety. Instead, it was a scavenger trying to steal my armor. She didn't get it. But I learned she had a whole family of scavengers.

As word of a new settlement got out, the city started growing, and fast. When Raiders attacked, I'd kill the leader and recruit the rest. I had to.

Mind you he was an initiate.

Lone Wanderer: "How did The Pitt get started?"
Ashur: "Believe it or not, it started when the Brotherhood decided to loot this hellhole and wipe it off the map. We called it the Scourge. Back then, I was "Initiate Ashur." But that ended when the Brotherhood left me behind, and I came to see The Pitt in a new light. I was found by tribals who thought I was a god. I didn't argue, and with my leadership and their divine dedication, we began rebuilding this city."

Which would have the lowest amount of experience and possibly training out of any Brotherhood class.


So scrappy raiders with small arms really don't stand a chance against Power Armor per the lore, only an "explosion" made the Brotherhood believe one of their own was killed and he was the ONLY presumed casualty.

So unless the Raiders can't hit the broad side of a barn the Armor provides super protection against small arms if the K/D was half the Pitt for 0 dead Brotherhood.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

I have a question.

Why have there been pages spent to determine the efficacy of FO power armor against small arms? I don't think anyone has claimed that FO-PA is vulnerable to it.

 

[Scooby Doo]

I have a question.

Why have there been pages spent to determine the efficacy of FO power armor against small arms? I don't think anyone has claimed that FO-PA is vulnerable to it.

Because the Battle of Helios is being brought up as a counter to Power Armor not being resistant to small arms other wise they could have never been defeated.

When we know the case of the defeat was more to do with other factors other than lots of Service rifles pinging the armor.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

...snip...

My point really has to do with the fact that NOTHING has been established from all the debate that's gone on.
So, what can we use as a base assumption for the FO-PA?

1. I've got no problem saying they're highly resistant to small arms fire, but capable of being overwhelmed as the lighter points are repeatedly impacted and/or punctured.
2. It also makes sense that they are vulnerable to heavier calibre anti-material level rounds and penetrators, of which ma-deuce is firmly in this category, and which is surpassed by 40Ks bolter munitions. Note, this also indicates a vulnerability to PA-assisted melee attacks.
3. In the energy category, I also have no problem with stating they have a higher resistance to Energy Weapons than they do to projectiles.
-I honestly feel that the 3rd category is where the biggest disagreement rests. @Scooby Doo feels that FO has higher energy yields in there laser weaponry than 40K. I don't agree with this statement. I'll get behind the idea that both FO and 40K LasRifles are on even footing. Maybe the larger ones are too. That's where I sit.

Trying to get us past the argument and back on topic.

 

[Scooby Doo]

My point really has to do with the fact that NOTHING has been established from all the debate that's gone on.
So, what can we use as a base assumption for the FO-PA?

1. I've got no problem saying they're highly resistant to small arms fire, but capable of being overwhelmed as the lighter points are repeatedly impacted and/or punctured.

I agree

2. It also makes sense that they are vulnerable to heavier calibre anti-material level rounds and penetrators, of which ma-deuce is firmly in this category, and which is surpassed by 40Ks bolter munitions. Note, this also indicates a vulnerability to PA-assisted melee attacks.

I agree with this as well

3. In the energy category, I also have no problem with stating they have a higher resistance to Energy Weapons than they do to projectiles.
-I honestly feel that the 3rd category is where the biggest disagreement rests. @Scooby Doo feels that FO has higher energy yields in there laser weaponry than 40K. I don't agree with this statement. I'll get behind the idea that both FO and 40K LasRifles are on even footing. Maybe the larger ones are too. That's where I sit.

Trying to get us past the argument and back on topic.

Yeah only disagreement here is with the laser weapon.

I see FO laser rifles just below 40k plasma weapons which isn't too far fetched since we know there's canonically stated weapon yield of at least two gigawatts from the mass produced Assaultron. So Military grade laser rifles being in the triple digit megajoules isn't unsupported even if you doubted the various sources of ashing and scripted scenes.

Jules: "{725}{}{Pistols…'cept they shoot LIGHT. Now, Reno's a city o' lights, but the light THOSE pistols shine can cut a man in two... *swuppp*... (Jules makes slicing motion.) Makes a clean burn 'tween the two halves, it does.}"
The Chosen One: "{726}{}{They shoot light? Do they call the pistols 'laser pistols?'}"
Jules: "{735}{}{Well, uh, I don't really know… I ain't sure what you're talking about. But take my word for it: don't go asking the Salvatores about those pistols. They have this twitchy habit a killing people who're curious.}"
The Chosen One: "{736}{}{By 'laser pistols,' Jules, I mean pistols that emit beams of coherent light. A beam of sufficient wattage - say, several megawatts - could do considerable damage if focused on a target for a few seconds, producing the effect you've described.}"

I told him to put it down. He didn't. I told him it was an order. He didn't respond. We drew our weapons again and I ordered once more. He stood there and I told my men to approach.

As they surrounded him, some kind of lightning bolt shot from that thing. Turned Feldt into ash. We covered the area in bullets, but when the smoke cleared, the son of a bitch was gone. He couldn't go one circuit without tripping over his shoelaces, but now he can disappear in a flash?

Mary Jane: We're finally home.

Lily: You think the Gunners will let us in?

Mary Jane: By the looks of those laser pistols, probably not.

Lily: On the flip side, they'd probably help us with the cremation. Maybe I should ask them for help.

 

[Husky_Khan]

If the NCR attacked like they did in a manner resembling their first defense of Hoover Dam, then they had the Rangers and Recon Snipers on the high ground targeting the higher value targets.

The only real tactical thing we know about the Battle is being outnumbered 15-20 to 1 and the NCR supposedly coming in waves. The NCR never seemed big on Kamikaze Charges and their troops for suicidal bravery so I'm assuming it wasn't literal Banzai charge after Banzai charge, just advancing, some getting ashed or gooped and either falling back or taking cover in the heights.

Meanwhile you have Recon and Ranger snipers armed with hunting rifles, sniper rifles and anti material rifles as well as Marksmen Carbines as seen on New Vegas being able to suppress the Paladins and would be able to whether they are on the roof or not. The optics on Laser Rifles and Plasma Rifles ain't all that great and the Sharpshooters can advance while the NCR troopers are attacking and put on fire from the roof or the ground.

Accumulating damage from actual rifle rounds plinking off ones head or limbs or even hitting the BoS weapons would seriously impair ones day.

I actually am of the opinion that Power Armor is highly resilient to small arms fire and should be considered as such in the lore. Power Armored infantry turned the tide of the Yangtze Campaign in the Great War. They scourged the Pitt. They were literal walking Tanks in Fallout One and Two when even basic energy weapons (and big guns) were scary asf.

But the NCR has shown some strategy before beyond assuming 15-20 Service Rifles whittled down the Paladins in an Open Field. Helios One wasnt defensible, they were outnumbered, they ran out of munitions and the NCR had more than Service Rifles.

Sad we never saw the NCR using cool stuff like missile launchers or grenade rifles, but it was clear they had those available. Mags of the Misfits had a grenade rifle at Camp Golf, Grenade Launchers were sold at the 188 Trading Post by the Arms Merchant and at the Camp McCarran Supply Shack. The Quartermaster at Hoover Dam could sell hundreds of the 40mm grenades (and sometimes sold Fat Man mininukes as well). And NCR Merchants at the 188 Trading Post and Camp McCarran also sold Missile Launchers and Missiles as well.

The average NCR Trooper was probably better trained and maybe equipped back then on average as well considering the attrition that would follow the Battle of Hoover Dam.

 

[Scooby Doo]

If the NCR attacked like they did in a manner resembling their first defense of Hoover Dam, then they had the Rangers and Recon Snipers on the high ground targeting the higher value targets.

The only real tactical thing we know about the Battle is being outnumbered 15-20 to 1 and the NCR supposedly coming in waves. The NCR never seemed big on Kamikaze Charges and their troops for suicidal bravery so I'm assuming it wasn't literal Banzai charge after Banzai charge, just advancing, some getting ashed or gooped and either falling back or taking cover in the heights.

Meanwhile you have Recon and Ranger snipers armed with hunting rifles, sniper rifles and anti material rifles as well as Marksmen Carbines as seen on New Vegas being able to suppress the Paladins and would be able to whether they are on the roof or not. The optics on Laser Rifles and Plasma Rifles ain't all that great and the Sharpshooters can advance while the NCR troopers are attacking and put on fire from the roof or the ground.

Accumulating damage from actual rifle rounds plinking off ones head or limbs or even hitting the BoS weapons would seriously impair ones day.

I actually am of the opinion that Power Armor is highly resilient to small arms fire and should be considered as such in the lore. Power Armored infantry turned the tide of the Yangtze Campaign in the Great War. They scourged the Pitt. They were literal walking Tanks in Fallout One and Two when even basic energy weapons (and big guns) were scary asf.

But the NCR has shown some strategy before beyond assuming 15-20 Service Rifles whittled down the Paladins in an Open Field. Helios One wasnt defensible, they were outnumbered, they ran out of munitions and the NCR had more than Service Rifles.

Sad we never saw the NCR using cool stuff like missile launchers or grenade rifles, but it was clear they had those available. Mags of the Misfits had a grenade rifle at Camp Golf, Grenade Launchers were sold at the 188 Trading Post by the Arms Merchant and at the Camp McCarran Supply Shack. The Quartermaster at Hoover Dam could sell hundreds of the 40mm grenades (and sometimes sold Fat Man mininukes as well). And NCR Merchants at the 188 Trading Post and Camp McCarran also sold Missile Launchers and Missiles as well.

The average NCR Trooper was probably better trained and maybe equipped back then on average as well considering the attrition that would follow the Battle of Hoover Dam.

Speaking of New Vegas factions how do you think the Securitron MKII's would do against Catachan? They're made out of Titanium and self repair, all carry grenade launchers and missiles for standard equipment and would be trivial to mass produced.

 

[Simonbob]

Speaking of New Vegas factions how do you think the Securitron MKII's would do against Catachan? They're made out of Titanium and self repair, all carry grenade launchers and missiles for standard equipment and would be trivial to mass produced.

They'll get eaten, like everything else.

 

[Scooby Doo]

They'll get eaten, like everything else.

Eaten by what?

The only thing that comes close so far defined is a Catachan Devil and I see no reason a large enough force of Securitrons couldn't kill them off with missile volley spam.

Disease, Toads and Spores won't effect the machines and short of a Catachan Devil nothing can survive multiple grenade launcher rounds to the face.

 

[Zachowon]

Eaten by what?

The only thing that comes close so far defined is a Catachan Devil and I see no reason a large enough force of Securitrons couldn't kill them off with missile volley spam.

Disease, Toads and Spores won't effect the machines and short of a Catachan Devil nothing can survive multiple grenade launcher rounds to the face.

Most of the vegetation is innocuous. They wouldn't know it is dangerous until it it to late.
And a lot of the things they have definitely do nit care for that for PA.
Now, we cna also look at the major strong holds of the planet.
that they are able to hold off both Ork and Daemon invasions. Without outside helps speaks volumes.
And the fact that any force on the planet if able to reach them wothout dying to wildlife would be sitting ducks in the fields of fire.

because, ICBMs wont matter when you have point defense guns.

my main question is, do we actually know how fast they can produce such things?

I dare you to find where I said that they can only be killed by heavy weapons. Go ahead I'll wait.



Citation required.

Show me an entrance to the roof or concede.

You can climb to it. You are acting like the game mechanics making it so you can clear rubble is proof that lore wise they couldn't.
Can we in game climb to the top of the NV sign?
If not, then we know lore wise people can still get there.

 

[Scooby Doo]

Most of the vegetation is innocuous. They wouldn't know it is dangerous until it it to late.

Excuse my French but bullshit, base line humans with training can notice it.

And a lot of the things they have definitely do nit care for that for PA.

Literally only two things don't, toads and spores. Which are VERY easily countered by any force with a half decent kit.

Now, we cna also look at the major strong holds of the planet.
that they are able to hold off both Ork and Daemon invasions. Without outside helps speaks volumes.

Daemons and Orkz are still susceptible to biological warfare and don't wear vacuum sealed armor, Orkz runs around naked with scrap weapons and Daemons run around naked with melee weapons.

Neither are a professional or well equipped and organized army.

And the fact that any force on the planet if able to reach them wothout dying to wildlife would be sitting ducks in the fields of fire.

Unless there's millions of Toads and Devil Catachan every mile no, the biggest and primary threat is disease and poisonous fauna which power armor will no sell.

because, ICBMs wont matter when you have point defense guns.

Source they can shoot ICBM with point defense guns? Not silly flak cannons for WWII planes.

my main question is, do we actually know how fast they can produce such things?

Yes, one every three hours per facility.

You can climb to it.

No you can't there are no stairs or structures to jump off from.

You are acting like the game mechanics making it so you can clear rubble is proof that lore wise they couldn't.

Logically if a section collapsed removing the debris isn't going to restore the stair case to support the weight of multi ton power suit.

Which means rebuilding the staircase which requires time and resources of which they didn't have.

You're talking about a force that was limited to one Magazine each.

Can we in game climb to the top of the NV sign?
If not, then we know lore wise people can still get there.

You can't climb to Helios one, there are no ladders or positions to jump across. Your arguing for fanfiction.

 

[Simonbob]

Eaten by what?

Having read the Wiki?

Most of the bio-sphere.


The bio-sphere that ate a tyranid invasion.

 

[Scooby Doo]

Having read the Wiki?

Most of the bio-sphere.


The bio-sphere that ate a tyranid invasion.

Yes I have it's literally no more dangerous than the wasteland, and more than half the roster wouldn't be able to kill or injure a power armored trooper.


Furthermore the "Catachan" ate a Hive Fleet is literally bullshit, a guy assumes that's what happened other lore states that Catachan was created by advanced Hive fleets who never connected with the main Tyranid Hive.


People think Catachan was invaded but it never was and the only source that states this is directly contradicted by another source.