Buffy the Vampire Slayer, a discussion thread and retrospective

[Urabrask Revealed]

That would've run counter to the series and lost it a few fans. I mean, you all only started to notice how Wheldon portrayed adults as incompetent boobs when you grew up yourself, right?

 

[Bear Ribs]

I might have said this before already, but is it wrong for me to say that the characters of BTVS, and indeed, the show itself, would have SERIOUSLY benefited from some actual halfway-decent adult figures to help the kids guide them out of their messes?

Not knocking on Giles, but they didn't make him as assertive as he should have been I noticed. Jenny...Jenny Calendar would have been an AWESOME addition to the Scooby Gang, instead....they made her a sacrifice to Angel. Riley was meh. Angel and Spike....enough said about those two. And as usual, the rest of the adults were either clueless or complete idiots as per Whedon, or perhaps to appeal to the egos of BTVS's teenage audience.

That doesn't work in the context of a teen angst/drama show though. Teenagers frequently feel like adults don't understand them and this is reflected in their shows, where adults can't help with their problems.

This makes a lot less sense in the context of vampires murdering people compared with "I got a pimple right before a big date" but it's a fundamental necessary unrealism for the show to exist, much in the same way that Dumbledore can't take care of all the problems even in his own school even though he should be many times more powerful and competent than Harry, Ron, and Hermione put together. Removing him from the board towards the end was a smart move on the author's part that removed that necessary bit of suspension of disbelief.

As people have said, the real muff-up was the Watchers. In the original movie there was, literally, one Watcher. A single immortal guy with prophet-like powers to spot slayers and tasked to give them their initial instructions. It made perfect sense that Buffy was on her own because her entire support network was an elderly-looking immortal who's sole ability to contribute was showing her how to throw and wield a stake properly and how to spot a vampire in our midst.

Making the Watchers a huge international organization with (implied) vast resources available made them remarkably stupid because they had to be twisted around to still fit the "teen on their own" drama despite the fact that as the only Slayer in the world (supposedly, at first of course), Buffy is literally the entire reason for their existence and should be the focus on their entire organization, especially since she's sitting on the hellsphincter and trying to keep all the demonic crap from pouring out.

As a rework, it might be better if the Watchers were, at most, four or five people who are in the know. Most of the mare elderly and they're relatively poor because they pour resources into the Slayer and that's not really a profit-maker, though sometimes they get a decent windfall from a vampire who still has a pile of gold stashed around which goes into their Slayer war chest. They provide rides, alibis, and sometimes emergency first-aid to the Scoobies but the Watchers aren't combat material (the last Slayer got all the Watchers who could fight killed, perhaps they used to be a larger more effective organization but they've had a run of bad Slayers) so the Slayer and her posse have to do the heavy lifting.

The problem of course is that efficient watchers who do their job, even a tiny organization with no resources, reduces Teen Angst. As a result the writers will prefer Watchers who are somehow innately malevolent and deliberately act against their own interests and goals in order to make the Slayer angst more.

 

[Nikkolas]

Buffy was a huge part of my childhood and I will always be proud of the fact I saw the first ep when it first aired.

Darla scared the shit outta little me. Even then, I knew all the cliches. "Scary noises, boy and girl making out, monster will come kill them." But then SHE WAS THE MONSTER! AH!

I wrote on SB ages ago about why i prefer it to Angel:

So, I watched Angel the series through once and only once. Over the past few days I went back and looked over a few specific episodes that I remembered fondly.

Even still, I think Buffy is a better show overall.

I don't think this is entirely dependent on quality or lack thereof however. Upon my looking over Angel again, it's quite astonishing that, while this is the same world, both shows are so dramatically different in presentation.

I think it comes down to a few factors.

1. Action-to-drama ratio. Buffy was decidedly half-drama and half-action. I think Angel focused far more on the fighting and being Darker and Edgier.


2. Thematic difference. Buffy is essentially a coming of age series with a supernatural element. Angel, featuring older and fully matured people, can't really deal with the same issues as Buffy did.

And there's probably more I would ahve picked up on had I bothered to go over the entire series again. But I don't care enough.

Also, while I prefer Buffy overall, I do prefer Angel in a couple areas.
-it never had a season as bad as Buffy Season 6. I flat out refuse ever to watch that garbage again.
-kind of tying into my first point, Angel did quite a good job with chronicling Wesley's descent from a kind-hearted yet meek and ineffectual individual into a sociopath. Buffy tried do the same with Willow and...failed. Utterly.

Joss is too rigid a writer for his own good. He wanted Willow to turn evil because he thought that was the only way to develop her character more. Such narrow vision is really unforgivable when it leads to character derailment.

So, a quick few thoughts on why I prefer Buffy-

1. Seasonal Big Bads. Angel didn't really have any apart from maybe Holtz and Jasmine (who was so baldn it hurt). Everyone else was far too short-lived to and WR&H are more an overarching Big Bad.

2. Romances. I fucking hate every romance on Angel apart from Wesley/Lilah. I think Cordelia and Angel is just stupid and born out of the "hey! They're opposite genders and main characters!" mindset. That really bugs me.

Kind of a sidenote but the people here who whine about Buffy/Angel are really lame. They loved each other. Get over it. And it's considerably more real than Angel/Cordy, Angel/Darla or god forbid, Angel/Nina.

Oh! That reminds me.
3. This is a huge point against Angel. Angel Season 1 Episode "Sanctuary". They totally screwed with Buffy's character to make her appear the bad guy. Why? Because it's Angel's show.
Buffy has shown nothing but constant belief in redeeming Faith. Faith did far, far worse things in Season 3 and yet Buffy still had confidence in her.

Come Sanctuary and she's frickin' ready to kill Faith herself. She pursued her to a whole other city to kill her.

Couple that with her last bit of dialogue with Angel, where she specifically brings up Riley to emotionally hurt Angel, and I hate this episode despite how great it was for Faith's character.

So those are just a few of my thoughts to get the ball rolling. I'm more interested in hearing which show people here preferred and why.

That being said, I haven't rewatched it in years. I don't think I'd hate it now or anything but just...not that much interest. I'm always going to be grateful to it for what it did for me and many other nerds and LGBT folks but I guess I've kinda outgrown it.

Season 2 and 3 were unquestionably, cosmically the peak of the show.
Season 5 was saved by Tara and Glorificus. Best Big Bad.

 

[Tiamat]

Well, it seems Joss Whedon is in the news again...but not in a good way. I would advise caution when viewing this, but it appears legit. YMMV of course.

 

[Spartan303]

Again with this? We all knew he was a petty tyrant.

...still does great work though.

 

[Tiamat]

Again with this? We all knew he was a petty tyrant.

...still does great work though.

It is beginning to fit a pattern with him, isn't it??

 

[Tiamat]

I think it's also telling, again, not a lot of actors that Whedon has previously worked with have stepped forward to defend him on this and other accounts of his behavior. I think Amy Acker was one. Anyone else??

 

[Spartan303]

I think it's also telling, again, not a lot of actors that Whedon has previously worked with have stepped forward to defend him on this and other accounts of his behavior. I think Amy Acker was one. Anyone else??

Wait, Amy Acker came to his defense? Did he kind of creep stalk her on Angel?

 

[Tiamat]

Wait, Amy Acker came to his defense? Did he kind of creep stalk her on Angel?

I THINK Amy Acker came to his defense when the allegations of sexual infidelity came out regarding himself and other actresses when his wife divorced him....I think. I could be wrong. But didn't hear much of any defense from any of his former "stars" from what I read, especially Sarah Michelle Gellar.

EDIT: Who knows how many actresses he was creep stalking? But from what I heard he went a lot further than that....

 

[Lanmandragon]

It is beginning to fit a pattern with him, isn't it??

He's a "male feminist" so yeah it sure does they're all scumbags

 

[Tiamat]

He's a "male feminist" so yeah it sure does they're all scumbags

I am of the school that thinks there is more than one type that has different definitions of what "They" think is considered to be feminist. I would hesitate to call all male feminists scumbags...but Whedon apparently outing himself as a steaming pile of excrement in spite of his admitted talent and works seems to be a foregone conclusion at this point.

In short, yeah, he's definitely a scumbag.

 

[Lanmandragon]

I am of the school that thinks there is more than one type that has different definitions of what "They" think is considered to be feminist. I would hesitate to call all male feminists scumbags...but Whedon apparently outing himself as a steaming pile of excrement in spite of his admitted talent and works seems to be a foregone conclusion at this point.

In short, yeah, he's definitely a scumbag.

Sure but I'm of the school of occams razor and the majority of the time someone says "I'm a male feminist". Theyll end up being outed as some kind of pervert within 2 to 3 years. Its uncanny and I see 0 reason to give them the benefit of the doubt. Because they despise me and my whole gender so **** them.

 

[ShadowLord]

Sure but I'm of the school of occams razor and the majority of the time someone says "I'm a male feminist". Theyll end up being outed as some kind of pervert within 2 to 3 years. Its uncanny and I see 0 reason to give them the benefit of the doubt. Because they despise me and my whole gender so **** them.

Exactly this. I can't say I haven't heard of a single 'male feminist' that wasn't some sort of scumbag or creeper. Or at least that seems to be the case with the ones in any position of wealth, fame or power.

 

[Arch Dornan]

How did this end? I barely know it except for some episodes and a card game.

 

[Navarro]

I think Sunnydale collapsed in the finale?

 

[Tiamat]

I think Sunnydale collapsed in the finale?

It did, among other things. Frankly, I have mixed feelings about the end. Buffy basically decided to make every Potential girl on the planet a Slayer, I guess to boost her own "army" for the big battle...nevermind she basically was robbing a bunch of other girls of any choice they might have hoped for in life, now they're all stuck as Slayers. Although, on the other hand and to be fair, the notion of multiple Slayers (not just Faith and Buffy) would have made a LOT more sense from the beginning. I don't know who thought it was brilliant to have only one Slayer at a time on the whole planet.

That plus....it was just the Slayers and what remained of the Slayerettes in the end fighting the big battle in Sunnydale when it's implied there's some panic going on with supernatural occurrences going into overdrive and almost everyone else in town has evacuated. So...does Sunnydale live in a vacuum? The Feds aren't showing up? Where's the California National Guard, U.S. Army out of Fort Irwin or even U.S. Marines out of 29 Palms??

But hey, it's the Whedonverse. YMMV...

EDIT: With that said....Sunnydale shouldn't have existed in a fucking vacuum, the U.S. Military along with Federal agents and State Police should have been all over that damn town like flies on shit. Joss Whedon did a bunch of handwaving because he didn't want the spotlight taken away from his obsession with young girls. Next time, even a pop fantasy tv series like this? JOSS WHEDON NEEDS TO PUT DOWN THE FUCKING COMICS AND DO THE ACTUAL GODDAMN RESEARCH.

End rant. Time for a fancy drink with an umbrella...

 

[Abhorsen]

More (and brand new info) on whedon being a dick:

 

[Spartan303]

More on whedon being a dick:

Wow, that pretty much confirms nearly everything I heard about him and discussed in both Public and private settings.

 

[Bear Ribs]

It did, among other things. Frankly, I have mixed feelings about the end. Buffy basically decided to make every Potential girl on the planet a Slayer, I guess to boost her own "army" for the big battle...nevermind she basically was robbing a bunch of other girls of any choice they might have hoped for in life, now they're all stuck as Slayers. Although, on the other hand and to be fair, the notion of multiple Slayers (not just Faith and Buffy) would have made a LOT more sense from the beginning. I don't know who thought it was brilliant to have only one Slayer at a time on the whole planet.

That plus....it was just the Slayers and what remained of the Slayerettes in the end fighting the big battle in Sunnydale when it's implied there's some panic going on with supernatural occurrences going into overdrive and almost everyone else in town has evacuated. So...does Sunnydale live in a vacuum? The Feds aren't showing up? Where's the California National Guard, U.S. Army out of Fort Irwin or even U.S. Marines out of 29 Palms??

But hey, it's the Whedonverse. YMMV...

EDIT: With that said....Sunnydale shouldn't have existed in a fucking vacuum, the U.S. Military along with Federal agents and State Police should have been all over that damn town like flies on shit. Joss Whedon did a bunch of handwaving because he didn't want the spotlight taken away from his obsession with young girls. Next time, even a pop fantasy tv series like this? JOSS WHEDON NEEDS TO PUT DOWN THE FUCKING COMICS AND DO THE ACTUAL GODDAMN RESEARCH.

End rant. Time for a fancy drink with an umbrella...

Part of this is the legacy of it being a pre-Whedon movie. In the original movie there was one slayer, one watcher (immortal and directly assigned by heaven), and one master vampire and that was it. It make more sense then than when there was a Hellsphincter spewing demons all over the landscape.

Granted this hardly excuses Whedon since he's the one who decided to create the Hellmouth spewing demons all over the landscape. On the other hand the movie ended with the watch and vampire dead and Buffy the last one standing so he had to invent something to have any continuation.

 

[Tiamat]

More (and brand new info) on whedon being a dick:

Jesus, I feel bad for Charisma Carpenter....and whoever else had to work for Joss Whedon at this point, including Nicholas Brendon. If it's this bad I wonder how it was for Sarah Michelle Gellar.

Yeah...Joss Whedon is an abusive sociopath and utter jackass. This is gonna tarnish the whole BTVS brand forever if it wasn't tarnished already...sadly.