Battletech Story Brainstorming

[Bear Ribs]

Note that a bog standard ammo feed in BT will have no problem putting a ton of ammo in the left leg and then seamlessly threading the bullets all the way to four different guns in the head, torso, and hands. It will have no problem around all the internals and even through the knee, shoulder, and elbow joints without jamming as those limbs are swinging around punching and kicking. It can further seamlessly switch which gun the ammo is going to on the fly so if you're only firing the left arm this round, bullets only go there and if the left arm gets blown off, it redirects all the ammo so that the other three guns have every unfired shot available.

BT ammo feeds might as well be magic portal sorcery.

 

[Spartan303]

Okay, let assume, for a moment, our weapons really are that much better than Future of the 1980s BattleTech. How would we explain that weapon systems a thousand years in the past can compete with and in some cases exceed what the IS/Clans have now?

 

[Skitzyfrenic]

There have been several societal collapses, to include the Terran Alliance's fall.

It just got lost in the sauce.

 

[Jormungandr]

Okay, let assume, for a moment, our weapons really are that much better than Future of the 1980s BattleTech. How would we explain that weapon systems a thousand years in the past can compete with and in some cases exceed what the IS/Clans have now?

Knowledge being lost, regained in some way (rediscovery, redevelopment, et cetera), lost again, regained -- repeat as needed?

With the sheer amount of wars setting things back constantly, including a "certain war" that had Amaris being a cunt-nugget and that caused the Star League itself to collapse, it's not hard to imagine that as a cause.

I mean, the Inner-Sphere was on its way to real recovery, some shit happened, and now they've all basically backslid into yet another dark age, IIRC.

 

[Battlegrinder]

I suppose it's possible that earth technology just leapt ahead of BT, that knowledge was lost, and they never caught back up (even advanced factions like the clans stalled out in tech advancement during the golden century, only making advances around the invasion and then stalling again). The problem with that is that they're miles ahead of us elsewhere (fusion engines, biotechnology, energy weapons, etc), and it doesn't really seem plausible for them to have mastered those fields while being so far behind us elsewhere.

I mean, the Inner-Sphere was on its way to real recovery, some shit happened, and now they've all basically backslid into yet another dark age, IIRC.

Not exactly. The Dark Age didn't really see any significant loss of technological progress or understanding. What happened was that HPG network was knocked out, and all interstellar communications with it. Technology wasn't lost, but everyone was now, uh....in the dark about what was happening anywhere else.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

Kee

I think we have superior high caliber end cannon tech in terms of power, and effectiveness, but not weight.

The weight rating for a BTech weapon is for the gun and by impliccation the autoloader system, although the ammunition weights are bizarre enough that one can argue that part of the loading system weight goes into them as well. That's not equivalent to something like a modern tank's turret, which is an *actual part of the vehicle's structure*. A Rheinmetall Rh-120 hypervelocity tank cannon weighs 4,160 kilograms including the gun mount; rounded off, that's only five tons.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

Okay, let assume, for a moment, our weapons really are that much better than Future of the 1980s BattleTech. How would we explain that weapon systems a thousand years in the past can compete with and in some cases exceed what the IS/Clans have now?

That John Moses Browning really is the God of Small Arms and has graced us with the absolute, definitive Machine Gun for all eternity, thus making the .50 BMG infused with Holy Smiting Power and enabling it to magically defeat future-tech armor.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

In all seriousness, the machine guns make a rather terrible problem with any realistic analysis of BTech weapons/armor. Even adopting the common fanon handwave that Battlemech armor is ablative in nature and hence "chips away" under small-arms fire even though it's highly durable science fiction armor that still resists hits from much more powerful weapons. . . even setting aside game mechanics, the relative performance means even the most powerful Battlemech guns are within an order of magnitude of a .50 BMG machine gun.

This is a ridiculously narrow range -- in real life, a mere 25mm autocannon is already an order of magnitude above the .50-caliber, and heavier autocannons continue to go up from there, much less hypervelocity tank guns.

 

[Doomsought]

Okay, let assume, for a moment, our weapons really are that much better than Future of the 1980s BattleTech. How would we explain that weapon systems a thousand years in the past can compete with and in some cases exceed what the IS/Clans have now?

Rock-paper-scissors: many technologies we have right now were hit with a hard counter so hard that they were completely abandoned for different technologies that were able to overcome that counter. The counter was eventually abandoned since it is not relevant against the new weapons systems. This is what happen with mono-missiels being countered by AMS, so everyone switch to swarm missile launchers. Since everyone is using swarm missiles, AMS got dropped from most weapon platforms, so not mono-missiles are theoretically relevant again if any one had the infrastructure to re-develop them.

Infrastructure is the real advantage Earth has in the B-Tech universe. We have an intact and self sustaining industrial and economic systems, all on one planet. The Star League had a deliberate policy against allowing this on most planets as a method to event rebellion with the threat of economic collapse if they loss access to interstellar trade. After the Ameris civil war, all of the planetary economies collapsed as designed which made it even more difficult to rebuild afterwords. So it might take a few decades, but unlike most planets we have the capacity to completely retool our infrastructure up to the higher technological standards found in the Inner Sphere as soon as we learn the manufacturing techniques.

 

[Jormungandr]

Rock-paper-scissors: many technologies we have right now were hit with a hard counter so hard that they were completely abandoned for different technologies that were able to overcome that counter. The counter was eventually abandoned since it is not relevant against the new weapons systems. This is what happen with mono-missiels being countered by AMS, so everyone switch to swarm missile launchers. Since everyone is using swarm missiles, AMS got dropped from most weapon platforms, so not mono-missiles are theoretically relevant again if any one had the infrastructure to re-develop them.

Infrastructure is the real advantage Earth has in the B-Tech universe. We have an intact and self sustaining industrial and economic systems, all on one planet. The Star League had a deliberate policy against allowing this on most planets as a method to event rebellion with the threat of economic collapse if they loss access to interstellar trade. After the Ameris civil war, all of the planetary economies collapsed as designed which made it even more difficult to rebuild afterwords. So it might take a few decades, but unlike most planets we have the capacity to completely retool our infrastructure up to the higher technological standards found in the Inner Sphere as soon as we learn the manufacturing techniques.

You mean like how body armour (in the form of scale, plate, chain, et cetera) basically became obsolete thanks to gun development, until modern kevlar vests were created, making body armour viable again? And if, say, hand-held laser weapons became the norm over ballistic firearms that would pierce kevlar as though it weren't there, it'd become obsolete again until another type of armour is developed against laser weapons... which could also mean this anti-laser armour is vulnerable to ballistics, which has them and kevlar (or its successor materials) being brought back?

...I think I lost myself a little there.

 

[S'task]

We would likely have those clunky neurohelmets reduced into something like a thin skullcap or even brain implants (we're halfway there already in real-life),

. . .

BattleTech literally has both of these advancements already. A large reason for the neurohelmet being bulky is that it's a combined blast helmet / neurohelmet (no, seriously, if you look up the stats for neurohelmets in the RPGs, they count as heavy armor). Meanwhile ComStar and the Clans have simple helmets with neurocowls in them. Further, they have an implant version as well, but since BattleTech IS by the same people who designed Shadowrun, it might cause some... issues. Then again, we don't know if such tech RL is safe either...

Seriously, this idea that BattleTech is super far behind modern Earth in tech is stupid. To use computer tech for a moment what happens if you take a modern computer and imperfectly seal it away for a few hundred years and then try to turn it on? Oh, right, nothing happens, the computer and all its amazing hardware decay over that time and no storage medium we have right now is rated to hold data that long. You know what happens when you do that with a BattleTech computer per canon? It turns on and works, resuming from where it left off.

This difference is MASSIVE in its implications and y'all are just handwaving it away because "muh modern earth". BattleTech tech is designed to LAST and not require periodic replacement unless exposed to massive damage, even their consumer electronics are described as such.

Also, on BattleTech ranges, I have pointed out before that canonically and per the rules, certain BattleTech weapons have to the horizon ranges and specific rules to govern those. The base game ranges are explicitly stated to be for gameplay purposes, and even change their ranges depending on if we're looking at a space map, an atmospheric map, or a ground map... yes, the exact same weapon will have RADICALLY different ranges just depending on the map scale used. Basically, BattleTech weapons have a HEX range, and how far they actually shoot is actually determined by how big those hexes are. When the hex is scaled to 30 meters, you get the "traditional" ranges, but when those hexes change to atmospheric scale you get ten times the range easily... to say nothing of what SPACE hexes are...

 

[ShadowArxxy]

Seriously, this idea that BattleTech is super far behind modern Earth in tech is stupid. To use computer tech for a moment what happens if you take a modern computer and imperfectly seal it away for a few hundred years and then try to turn it on? Oh, right, nothing happens, the computer and all its amazing hardware decay over that time and no storage medium we have right now is rated to hold data that long. You know what happens when you do that with a BattleTech computer per canon? It turns on and works, resuming from where it left off.

This difference is MASSIVE in its implications and y'all are just handwaving it away because "muh modern earth". BattleTech tech is designed to LAST and not require periodic replacement unless exposed to massive damage, even their consumer electronics are described as such.

The 'Ragnarok proofing' of Battletech technology is actually one of the most dramatic demonstrations of its innate inferiority. You build a computer to last a thousand years when you are so utterly backwards that you cannot comprehend the idea of another computer being designed at any point in the next thousand years which is better.

Modern computers don't last that long because something that old is worthlessly obsolete. We could easily build technology to last that long, we don't because there's no use for it outside of extremely specialized use cases like deep storage archives.

 

[Doomsought]

The 'Ragnarok proofing' of Battletech technology is actually one of the most dramatic demonstrations of its innate inferiority. You build a computer to last a thousand years when you are so utterly backwards that you cannot comprehend the idea of another computer being designed at any point in the next thousand years which is better.

No. The Inner Sphere is not Earth, and its economy, working or failed, reflects this. Ragnorock proofing is the result of interstellar economies demanding that product life span adapt to the pace of interstellar trade.

Most planets have the population of a largish city and lack the manpower to be self sufficient in every single industry. At least at modern or above tech levels. So they have to import most of their advanced technology from a planet potentially a hundred light years away. If one of the spared they put into a warehouse ten years ago doesn't work, then the whole planet will have to worry about down-teching if all of the others in long term storage have also gone bad. The few planets that were able to be completely self sufficient ending up becoming the capitals of star nations during the Age of War, and then provincial capitals in many cases towards the end of the Age of War.

 

[Aaron Fox]

The 'Ragnarok proofing' of Battletech technology is actually one of the most dramatic demonstrations of its innate inferiority. You build a computer to last a thousand years when you are so utterly backwards that you cannot comprehend the idea of another computer being designed at any point in the next thousand years which is better.

Modern computers don't last that long because something that old is worthlessly obsolete. We could easily build technology to last that long, we don't because there's no use for it outside of extremely specialized use cases like deep storage archives.

Only in the context of a (conventional) computer field that didn't hit the 'roof' of Moore's Law. We're already starting to hit Moore's Law's roof with solid-state computer systems; we're getting to the point where quantum mechanics are starting to interfere with the capabilities of our chips. That's why we're looking into optical and quantum chips now, as they're the only ones with any real growth potential.

Like how ICE and Fuel Cell engines are fluffed to be essentially the XXL versions by the time the first Battlemech is created, Battletech computers are basically in the same situation but in terms of computers... adding the fact that their robustness is a byproduct of the slowness of FTL travel (you can get three days per jump at best with just a KF drive in really good order and a crack crew via trickle-feeding the reactor, outside those circumstances, it takes weeks) and just how hazardous the galaxy is and where humanity settled (seriously, it isn't uncommon for humans to settle on planets like Venus).

So unless you have 'Modern' Earth with Q-Comps that hit their Moore's Law roof, B-Tech wins the computer matchup (getting a computer to even talk to a human brain reliably is a fair bit into the future even with our computers, yet they are doing it with these 'chunky' computers) anyway.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

Note that a bog standard ammo feed in BT will have no problem putting a ton of ammo in the left leg and then seamlessly threading the bullets all the way to four different guns in the head, torso, and hands. It will have no problem around all the internals and even through the knee, shoulder, and elbow joints without jamming as those limbs are swinging around punching and kicking. It can further seamlessly switch which gun the ammo is going to on the fly so if you're only firing the left arm this round, bullets only go there and if the left arm gets blown off, it redirects all the ammo so that the other three guns have every unfired shot available.

BT ammo feeds might as well be magic portal sorcery.

Some degree of that is game mechanics, however.

 

[Skitzyfrenic]

That's not equivalent to something like a modern tank's turret, which is an *actual part of the vehicle's structure*. A Rheinmetall Rh-120 hypervelocity tank cannon weighs 4,160 kilograms including the gun mount; rounded off, that's only five tons.

The Rheinmetall Rh-120 (I actually say that last night but decided to not include it because it wasn't an autocannon) is also hand fed. But I have to ask how much of that weight also includes the stabilizer and the control motors for fine adjustment? (Do modern tanks do horizontal or only vertical for fine adjustments? I suppose they could move the entire turret, but that seems like a waste of power if you've only got to adjust for like a degree)

So 120mm is /10 to /20 range at 5 ish tons? That's like seven tons minimum to pull it up to BT weight for ammo feed, automated loading, control/adjustment motors, etc.

It's kinda long though, isn't it? Isn't part of the BT 'issue' how short barreled most of their weapons are?

In terms of computer tech, I don't think they actually beat us, but I also don't think that we necessarily beat them. Yeah they have extremely rugged computing technology, but it's volume/weight to processing power ratio is pretty doo doo. In the same weight and space we could jam in enough processing power to jump ahead.

And most of their comps are really purpose built, yeah?

With what we've already got, I think we've got more than enough to turn away just about any smaller (Lance to battalion) force without breaking out biiiiig weapons.

So long as we accept that we can chip away at their armor. Because even if we don't have the ballistics for whatever reason, we do have artillery and missiles that match or exceed along.

And that they weren't they for a raid. I don't think we could respond fast enough to a raid.

If an RCTEQ dropped on us for an invasion, we'd win through attrition I think. We just have the reserves (Because we have sane military numbers). They'd still likely wreck a lot of infrastructure.

But if the entire Crucis Lancers dropped on us like they did on Tikonov, we'd lose.

At least for tech up to the Civil War/Clanners still being Clanners. Once the EWAR suites start being used en masse, and they start fielding energy boats with their (definitely pretty awesome) AMS' along with more combined arms tactics, I think we'd start to lose against smaller and smaller forces. Or have to use the 'tactical weapons' with increasing frequency.

And if they rolled up with a Warship, they could just threaten ortillery and probably get a lot of nations to just fold.

I'm actually curious about the air frame gap. I realize we don't have ASFs but in atmo, how'd you think we'd hold up?

 

[ShadowArxxy]

Keep in mind that the scenario here isn’t RL versus BTech, but “BTech faction evolved from Rl versus BTech mainstream”.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

The Rheinmetall Rh-120 (I actually say that last night but decided to not include it because it wasn't an autocannon) is also hand fed. But I have to ask how much of that weight also includes the stabilizer and the control motors for fine adjustment? (Do modern tanks do horizontal or only vertical for fine adjustments? I suppose they could move the entire turret, but that seems like a waste of power if you've only got to adjust for like a degree)

So 120mm is /10 to /20 range at 5 ish tons? That's like seven tons minimum to pull it up to BT weight for ammo feed, automated loading, control/adjustment motors, etc.

1. The Rh-120 is hand fed at a higher rate of fire than BTech autoloaders. BTech ACs fire one round (or round-equivalent burst) per ten seconds; the Rh-120 fires one round every seven to eight seconds with a minimally competent loader and as little as three seconds with a skilled loader. In other words, hand loading literally means free Ultra AC equivalent upgrade from training alone.

2. Modern tank cannon autoloaders are much lighter than you're thinking; the autoloader in the LeClerc tank is just 500 kilograms.

3. BTech autoloaders are less advanced than real life ones, as only the "lostech" LBX is capable of loading and switching multiple ammunition types. Even then, it's only two types of ammunition -- the Clans are the only ones in the BTech universe with a triple-ammo autoloader, and even then only for missiles and it's super advanced tech that the Clans didn't develop until 3054.

Remember, the Inner Sphere is so backwards that it's only partially a joke that the idea of counting to six is radically innovative for them. They literally had Streak SRM-2 launchers but could not concieve of Streak SRM-4 and Streak SRM-6 until they had Clan versions to copy from. They also consider CASE ammo storage to be LosTech. . . and that's something that the Sherman had in WWII.

 

[Spartan303]

Keep in mind that the scenario here isn’t RL versus BTech, but “BTech faction evolved from Rl versus BTech mainstream”.

Its more of a Real World ISOT'd to BattleTech verse. Being found by said factions and possibly attacked by said factions.

 

[bullethead]

Okay, let assume, for a moment, our weapons really are that much better than Future of the 1980s BattleTech. How would we explain that weapon systems a thousand years in the past can compete with and in some cases exceed what the IS/Clans have now?

Real simple: Special interests (private and governmental) doing a lot of shenanigans to suppress/obfuscate intellectual property that can make things better, such as alloy formulas, patents, manufacturing technologies, weapon designs, etc...

You don't have to go full "the CIA shoved anti-gravity/zero point energy into a warehouse somewhere", but just putting up legal hurdles to developing, adopting, and proliferating technologies would do a lot to handicap BattleTech.

For example, large-scale electrochemical additive manufacturing could potentially create endosteel skeletons that have all the weight savings and none of the bulk of canon endosteel, but the technology was never developed in BT because a cabal of metal foundries/mill and lathe manufacturers paid off legislators to write some legislation that would ensure anyone who invested in the technology would get taxed at absurd rates or something.