Battletech BattleTech discussion thread: May the light of Hanse Davion guide us

Battlegrinder

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Obozny
So are all five of those the same mech or am I missing something? Unless one is from CAV.

They're differant mechs.

Top Left: Mad Cat, the original model.
Top Center: Mad Cat Mk 2. The assault weight successor to the mad cat that diamond sharks designed, and then, being diamond sharks, solid to anyone that wanted one.
Top Right: Mad Cat Mk 3. The Mk 2, being a mad cat, naturally sold pretty well, so the sharks built another one, this one a medium. The Successor states loved it, the clans thought it was an insult to Kerensky for some reason.
Bottom Left; Mad Cat Mk 4: After the Mk 3 didn't do as well as was hoped, the sharks went back to the drawing board and made another new mad cat, at the classic 75 tons....and all the shiny new tech that had been developed since then. This time the clans bought it.
Bottom Right: Rakshasa. Early in the clan invasion, the inner sphere attempted to build thier own mad cat, for some reason. It didn't work, because of course it didn't, but the resulting design was a viable heavy mech in it's own right.....but still not well liked, because it was naturally being compared to the mad cat, a design it could never hope to match.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
Somehow I feel like the Talos should be in the chart somewhere. Granted it's no relation to the Mad Cat in design. It somehow happens to look exactly like the Mad Cat, except it came centuries earlier and has one hand so it can flip it's opponent off while shooting them. Maybe also the Vulture given that it was specifically made to copy and insult the Mad Cat.
 

UltimatePaladin

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I think the more interesting bit is not necessarily that the mad cat has this kind of lineage, but that other mechs don't. Normally mechs are just "someone built this for some reason", or occasional "someone built this for some reason, and it's related to this other mech in some way", but there's only a handful that have the sort of family tree that the mad cat does.
There are a few cases of that. The "IIC" variants are new mechs descended from the originals, but with advanced technology. Similarly, there's also the Atlas, Atlas II, and Atlas III.

Though, yeah. Those are pretty lackluster trees compared to the Mad Cat.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
Given that it is a Taurian mech, I can see that actually being the reason in the design meetings even if the official papers say otherwise.
It actually seems to be a standard characteristic of Taurian 'mechs. Brahma: 1 hand. Toro: 1 hand. Talos: 1 Hand. I think the Marshal is the only Taurian 'mech with two hands, and it was made for police duty and to cooperate with the Canopians which may have influenced that.

Also add the Lupus as the Prequel (released much later but canonically the ancestor of the Mad Cat). Man, they really did create a ton of Mad Cats and Mad Cat knockoffs.
 

Battlegrinder

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Obozny
Somehow I feel like the Talos should be in the chart somewhere. Granted it's no relation to the Mad Cat in design. It somehow happens to look exactly like the Mad Cat, except it came centuries earlier and has one hand so it can flip it's opponent off while shooting them. Maybe also the Vulture given that it was specifically made to copy and insult the Mad Cat.

At that point, it's not just a riff of that one meme, and more of a full on family tree.....which I'd totally be up to make, actually. Though given my battletech knowledge is not up to the task, that would probably have to be a collaborative thing, which I'd still totally be up for. Give me a few days.

Also add the Lupus as the Prequel (released much later but canonically the ancestor of the Mad Cat). Man, they really did create a ton of Mad Cats and Mad Cat knockoffs.

No, the Lupus is the ancestor of the Vulture, the Woodsman is the ancestor of the Mad Cat.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
At that point, it's not just a riff of that one meme, and more of a full on family tree.....which I'd totally be up to make, actually. Though given my battletech knowledge is not up to the task, that would probably have to be a collaborative thing, which I'd still totally be up for. Give me a few days.



No, the Lupus is the ancestor of the Vulture, the Woodsman is the ancestor of the Mad Cat.
Eh, kinda-sorta but the canon is a bit screwed up. The Mad Dog (Vulture) is somehow descended from an entirely different line from the Mad Cat despite it also canonically being made from Mad Cat parts using Mad Cat Molds. Also it was named Mad Dog as an insult to it's forbear the Timber Wolf (aka Mad Cat).

It also makes little sense that this is the ancestor of the Mad Cat:
516px-gls5ka9xwtexi99vatd2mhfpwfyvg1w.jpg


And this isn't.
504px-rdid29yhhuf9snq6vqnasx8eh7alwk4.jpg
 

Battlegrinder

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Obozny
It's a little odd, but not that difficult to explain. The Woodsman Prime and Lupus Prime are both fairly similar in loadout, but the mad cat clearly takes after the woodsman's mix of missiles and lasers as primary weapons, rather then the lupus's missile primary laser secondary configuration. It's also worth noting that the Mad cat is not a direct upgrade of the woodsman, but a replacement using the capabilities (but not the design specs) as a baseline. The same clearly happened with the mad dog, which used the lupus's armament as the baseline for it's design, rather than any the actual components,which were sourced from the mad cat.

Same with the Raksasha. It's design was based on the weapons, armor, and speed of the mad cat, which even influenced the look, but it's based on a marauder chassis and uses marauder parts.

I would also not call the timber wolf the forebear of the mad dog. The mad dog was designed to insult the mad cat, not emulate it.
 

PsihoKekec

Swashbuckling Accountant
but still not well liked, because it was naturally being compared to the mad cat, a design it could never hope to match.
Not to mention that at the same time FC unveiled Penetrator and Falconer which were much more popular. Even if Falconer has goofy legs.
 

Battlegrinder

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Obozny
So the reason most Clan Mechs lack hand actuators is that flipping off your enemy is dezgra and/or not Zell?

It's because there's a taboo against making physical attacks in most clans. It's not technically against zell, but is still seen as dishonorable and most clans won't do it. Though presently, this is mostly true for the homeworld clans, the clans in the inner sphere are much more willing to engage in physical combat after years of combat against IS forces.

To my recollection, there's not really any rules in zell about not taunting your enemy, so I think you could actually flip them off in your mech without issue.
 

S'task

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So the reason most Clan Mechs lack hand actuators is that flipping off your enemy is dezgra and/or not Zell?
It's because there's a taboo against making physical attacks in most clans. It's not technically against zell, but is still seen as dishonorable and most clans won't do it. Though presently, this is mostly true for the homeworld clans, the clans in the inner sphere are much more willing to engage in physical combat after years of combat against IS forces.

To my recollection, there's not really any rules in zell about not taunting your enemy, so I think you could actually flip them off in your mech without issue.
When it comes to practical application, Mech hands also make Mechs less of a weapon and more of a tool, since the primary capability they add to a mech is utility and the ability to do some non-combat things (carrying, lifting, picking up, etc.). Within the Clans, Warriors would not be undertaking such activities, those are activities for the Laborer Caste. Whereas in the Inner Sphere there's no real stigma in a MechWarrior giving a quick hand via their BattleMech for logistics support and operations.
 

Spartan303

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Osaul
Most of terraforming technologies come to mind.

As for military technologies, while Successor States gained some of these technologies due to defection SLDF units and looting of the Hegemony, they didn't learn their production before the destruction of 1&2 SW.

XL engines
Double heat sinks
ER lasers (not 100% sure if they didn't get this one before)
LB-X guns
Ultra guns
Artemis 4
Gauss rifle
Guardian ECM
Beagle Active Probe

They never got hold of these though
Null Sig
CLPS
PAL

I think Endo Steel and Ferro-Fibrous armor were spread around before the Amaris coup.


Could you go more into detail about these technologies? I'd really like to know more.
 

UltimatePaladin

Well-known member
Could you go more into detail about these technologies? I'd really like to know more.
Not original poster, but I'm familiar with what they are, what they do, and their limitations if you are interested?

For other news - what are some good Omnivehicles? Trying to understand the general design principles behind them.
 

Doomsought

Well-known member
For other news - what are some good Omnivehicles? Trying to understand the general design principles behind them.
Its all in the techmanual. The turret tonnage needs to be determined during step 1 of the design of an Omnivehicle. Armor, engines, and movement equipment (such as rotors) are fixed during the initial design process. Left over tonnage and space may be redistributed for weapons, ammo, heat sinks and power amplifiers freely to any location except the turret, which has its maximum tonnage set earlier.
 

UltimatePaladin

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Its all in the techmanual. The turret tonnage needs to be determined during step 1 of the design of an Omnivehicle. Armor, engines, and movement equipment (such as rotors) are fixed during the initial design process. Left over tonnage and space may be redistributed for weapons, ammo, heat sinks and power amplifiers freely to any location except the turret, which has its maximum tonnage set earlier.
I read the Techmanual, just trying to find some practical examples.

The big takeaway I got from the Techmanual was that Omnitechnology isn't as plug and play for vehicles as it is for BattleMechs. At least when it comes to turrets. As you said, turret mass is fixed for a design, and to avoid wastage it seems that you should focus on adding weapons and equipment to the turret first to do so.

Was interested in seeing some "good" canonical designs to see how they dealt with the problem, and how they allocated things for various configurations.
 

PsihoKekec

Swashbuckling Accountant
Could you go more into detail about these technologies? I'd really like to know more.
XL engines - half the weight of the standard engines, but more bulky
Double heat sinks - sinks two heat points, compared to on of normal heat sinks, more bulky
ER lasers - more range than standard, but more heat
LB-X guns - lighter, better range, can use cluster ammo (LB 10-X FTW!!!!)
Ultra guns - can fire twice in the round, fast firing can jam the gun (especially if you have a case of Hellbie dice)
Artemis 4 - upgrade for missile launchers, more missiles hit
Gauss rifle - heavy long range gun
Guardian ECM - disrupts BAP, counters ECM and can be used to create ghost targets
Beagle Active Probe - finds hidden units

I forgot the last time about:
Arrow IV - guided artillery missile
TAG - laser target designator for Arrow IV
Streak SRM - SRM that only fires when guranteed a hit, heavier than normal SRM
ER PPC - more range, more heat, no minimal range
AMS - Anti Missile System, fewer missiles hit you

They certainly never got hold of these though
Null Sig - unit can't be spotted by electronic means
CLPS - Chameleon Light Polarization System, forces targeting penalties on the opponent
PAL - Power Armor Light is a stepping stone to development of Battle Armor

Endo Steel - half the weight of normal internal structure but more bulky
Ferro-Fibrous armor - 15% lighter than normal but more bulky

Bulk is important because mechs have a set number of critical spaces so you have to balance between weight and volume, with the basic level tech it was difficult to exceed volume limitations, without aiming for it, but with Lvl. 2 tech it becomes quite a balancing act. Sarna has more on it, but perhaps the best comparison is to build a Lvl. 1 design in SSW and then build the same with Lvl. 2 tech.

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PsihoKekec

Swashbuckling Accountant
A little bit of AU building

War against Unity Part 1

I don't know where they came from and I hear the eggheads are still trying to crack this secret. We didn't get much communication from deeper Periphery even before the HPGs fell silent, there was a talk of some merchant jumpships who plied their trade on the outside reaches vanishing, but that was attributed to the pirates. And anyway, we were too busy butting our heads with Fedrats to notice anything going in other direction, like people over there getting fed up with being let to nonexistent mercy of the pirates. It was only when a guild chartered jumpship arrived from the Carthage with the news of invasion by an unknown forces, that our leadership sprang into action. After lengthy discussion that is. Probably talked themselves into believing that Fedrats were coming from the behind.

Since the scant data indicated quite sizable forces, the whole unit was sent, with additional aerospace and infantry assets. All of this took time of course, so Colonel estimated that the main cities of the world would have fallen by then and wisely decided to land us at some distance, while also opting to take some nuclear weapons along, for unforeseen anti-ship needs. And this is why Commandos are still on the Taurian Defense Force roll.

We were challenged at the Nadir jump point by a combat dropship that reportedly did some really crazy maneuvering before it was destroyed by nuclear missiles. And as our flotilla set off for the Carthage itself, it got chased down by the assault dropship guarding the Zenith jump point, against which our fighters expended their last nuclear missiles. The fact that we faced two combat dropships of an unknown class, capable of sustaining suicidal G-forces, rang alarm bells amongst the command, so colonel made a last day change to a landing zone further in the wilds, setting down on the Agera plateau, an arid, rocky piece of real estate, whose only feature of importance is a bauxite mine, with the only connecting road to the lowlands. A defensible area, but we could easily get bottlenecked there as well.

As the force was entering the atmosphere we broadcasted the a short appeal, declaring us to be TDF unit, sent to help the population against the invaders.

Reply was short: ''This world is a part of the greater union of the humanity. Your presence and aggression are unwarranted. Depart immediately.''

The pronunciation was absolutely grating, I have no idea how the speaker could have butchered in such a way. I mean, I had no idea back then.

Colonel demanded the invasion force to identify itself, but got the same reply. We caught their broadcasts to the population afterwards, however these were however the only words they had for us. But then, weapon fire is the best method of communication when dealing with abominations like this.

There was fighter clash and our guys had their hands full despite numerical superiority. Another bad omen.

See, I was just a simple mech jock back then, so I didn't hear what they found at the mine, my first personal notice that these weren't just some random weirdos from out there, was when my recognition book couldn't identify their scout tanks we encountered after descending down the road. It was obvious those weren't some slapshod thingies from village workshop, but top of the line stuff, operated by guys who knew their job. They gave was a lot of trouble but we took down several with the rest retreating to the sensor edge. We got the orders not to pursue beyond the unit threshold and I could tell some guys were chaffing.

So we spent approximately half a day sortying out, to push the scouts away and returning to the line. Then we noticed increase in the opposite ECM emission and within moments there was enemy force within range, charging us with minimechs* and APC carried battlearmor, again nothing in the recognition book. They were fast and nimble, making it difficult to hit them, but most of the company had jump jets, so we were able to keep them at distance, leading them into cauldron, as our comrades collapsed their flanks. Bastards took only a moment to split into two groups and charged both flanks, hitting our boys up close with quite a few of those damn mech tasers, their fiendish battle armor swarming over disabled mechs and tanks. We tried to shoot down as many bastards as possible and managed to save some of our comrades, while others were carried away by the battle armor troopers. They retreated faster than we could follow, leaving us in control of the battlefield, shaken and quite stirred. When I zoomed on the empty cockpit of Eugenio Rasmas I couldn't help to notice the lack of blood or scorch marks. Was he pulled out alive? I could very well imagine why someone would want live prisoners, but looking at their casualties, strewn around, I couldn't understand what commander would be willing to pay such price for some information.

We received order to pull back to the base of ascent as soon as trailers moved knocked out mechs and tanks back to our dropships, while we also dragged as many destroyed enemies to our new positions as possible. Bastards were now a continuous danger, probing our perimeter all the time, skittering away when our fire became too heavy, only to try again elsewhere, we were covering for each other, so we could catch a little bit of sleep, something bastards seemed not to need.

Finally the order came for us to retreat back to the plateau, with our company forming the rearguard. Our ever present opponents didn't fail to notice this and pressed us hard. We did our best to stay just out of the range of their mech tasers and not run after our comrades at top speed. I was well aware of where my sidearm was all the way up that winding road. That is until our artillery opened up. I must admit, it was handled masterfully, but they still pressed on, despite their casualties, until they reached the position of our fire company at one of the serpentines, combined weight of our artillery and heavy mechs convincing them to pull back. And we were ordered to pursue. I can tell you it wasn't exactly the most spirited chase on our side and bastards tried to counterattack us three or four times, we mostly managed to stay out of their tasers way, with artillery increasing its toll but, but Skulky did get tazed, we managed to hold them back from snatching him though. Captain stopped pursuit at what must have been the edge of effective artillery range and we dragged some bastard remains back to the new main line, with our striker buddies taking care of Skulky.

We got stood down at the laager, where exhaustion finally caught up with me, I could have slept so much longer when they woke me up for the meal, but such is soldier's life, never enough sleep. There wasn't much banter at the tables, we downed our food and coffee as quickly as we could and moved to the debriefing, where we were informed that we would rotate between being operational reserve and security for laager and the mine. Also if anyone wondered, all the ruckus few hours ago was from the major push up the road by the bastards. Judging by the faces, everybody else overslept it as well.

Two days later, Gawain Jones, yeah I reckon you heard about him, warned us that that he spotted some mini mechs climbing up the plateau. My lance was in the QRF and we raced to the point warned as about, catching the bastards before they could disperse.

They climbed the plateau at other points as well and we were chasing them for days as they mounted hit and run attacks against us, while also probing our positions at the road. After detachment guarding the mine got hit hard , we stripped the place of everything we could use and abandoned it, concentrating on the laager and the road. And after all that happened afterwards, there are still some armchair generals calling out colonel for ''surrendering initiative'' to the bastards. Fuck 'em, he was right and if they hold such strong opinions how the snatchers should be fought, then they are welcome to volunteer for combat duty and put their high flying ideas to practice. We were running low on ammo soon enough, especially for our artillery, so we had to call it quits. We packed everything but tents into our Dropships then carried out a textbook fire and maneuver retreat to the LZ. As I was running towards our Union I actually saw Jones deliver the last batch of refugees with his Skyhopper. I couldn't understand why he flew away though, by the timetable I was given we were mere minutes from liftoff. We actually wired the question about him to the colonel's dropper and I guess we weren't the only ones as the answer was a general message. That brave, mad fool. His family was on a Dropship, he could have gone with them, but instead he chose to stay and help those who were still in hiding in the wilds and couldn't be evacuated to our LZ. I sometimes daydream how we will kick the snatchers off Carthage and we will greet Jones and all the people he saved there and it will be all worth it. But it's a faint hope and getting fainter and fainter. For him and everyone left behind.


*Sort of ProtoMech, but Taurian soldiers wouldn't have that name on the tip of their tongues, so when somebody in the Concordat Commandos blurted minimechs into radio network, it was picked by the rest of the regiment and it stuck. All later attempts by Inner Sphere to enforce proper nomenclature failed.
 

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