Armchair General's DonbAss Derailed Discussion Thread (Topics Include History, Traps, and the Ongoing Slavic Civil War plus much much more)

[Marduk]

Hmm - Weight? In an era of easily available tractors should not be a factor.
The M114 should use standard NATO ammo. I suspect it was the bother of having a (small) battery of unique weapons ... maybe no spare parts for them? Antiquated sights? Lack of manpower to man such guns? Like you said - age - worn? Poor condition?
Used up barrels needing replacement/relining - either now or after a meagre few hundred shots?
I can think of many reasons - and I'm no military person - but weight should be Least Concern

Not weight by itself, setup/scram time in general is affected too by weight and design...
And in such a war minutes of setup time make the difference between life and death of the crew, and the safe-ish window to get in, shoot and get out gets smaller the closer one has to get to the frontline, which with older guns like M114 is compounded by their limited range compared to modern guns.
Ideally Ukraine would prefer self-propelled artillery alone, but it's not available, still, even towed guns with better mobility like M777 and various 105's take much more losses than SPGs.

 

[Marduk]

They wasted a dozen drones to sink a 40 year old 500 ton patrol boat that will have zero impact on the actual war

>wasted
Ok admiral, what would be a more efficient target for Ukrainian kamikaze USVs of that type that would justify foregoing the opportunity to hit this ship?

The more patrol boats go, the closer further drones will be able to get to more valuable ships and port facilities, and the less harassment will civilian shipping to Ukrainian ports undergo.
40 years is not that old for a warship.
Not that Ivanovets was 40 years old, it was commissioned in 1988.
Even US Navy has quite a few ships 40+ years old.

USS Michigan (SSGN-727) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Husky_Khan]

Rest in Peace...



Then again it had no aircraft carrier to sink. Now the surviving crew and support staff can form a Naval Infantry platoon and drive T-55 Tanks into battle at Vuhledar!

 

[strunkenwhite]

"What possible use could there be for a missile platform that (absent Ukrainian sea-facing defenses) could park itself anywhere off the entire coastline on short notice?"

 

[ATP]

The only person who matters is Putin. People spouting off on twitter doesnt count.

But I suspect Russias actual aims have greatly evolved now.

And Putin wonted take Kiev in week.We knew that thanks to captured documents.
If he do not take Kiev now,it would be still his loss.
Of course,Ukraine could also lost,if they do not liberate Marjunpol.

There are wars where both sides lost.Remember AH fighting Russia during WW1 ?

 

[Buba]

Speaking of T-55 and other antiques - almost 9 nine years ago the T-14 Armata was unveiled - with hype of how uber and metal it was, and that Russia would have thousands of them soon ...

 

[LordsFire]

Speaking of T-55 and other antiques - almost 9 nine years ago the T-14 Armata was unveiled - with hype of how uber and metal it was, and that Russia would have thousands of them soon ...

This is one of the things I really don't get about the Russiaboos and vatniks on here.

I could respect a 'I don't really trust any sources from either side' position. I think it's going too far in skepticism; there's enough data out there to come to some conclusions, but I can at least see the reasoning.

But it's things like this, where the Russians have promised biiiig, and not just fallen somewhat short, but failed utterly to follow through on it. And this isn't some minor side issue either, like an export-variant utility helicopter or something, this is a bloody flagship combat vehicle, one that's supposed to be the pride of the Russian army, and they've got what, six of them?

How these Russiaboos wilfully blind themselves to things like this, which aren't dependent on 'is the source pro-the-other-side?' or anything like that, I don't get. The corruption and failure is about as blatant as it can get, and in a central, front-line element of the Russian military.

That's pretty bloody indicative of what to expect from the rest of the Russian defense industry.

 

[Husky_Khan]

Apparently reporting on the Clone Wars like its the Russo-Ukrainian War is a thing.

 

[ATP]

Speaking of T-55 and other antiques - almost 9 nine years ago the T-14 Armata was unveiled - with hype of how uber and metal it was, and that Russia would have thousands of them soon ...

I remember at lest two books written by our vatniks/forget names and titles,as usual/ when hordes of T.14 take over Poland in weeks almost without loses.

And,Moscov pland for T.14 - first they planned 2300 build till 2000,then it become about 130 ,and now we do not knew when it happen.

But,it could be KGB trick made to feel safe.They could have hidden army of super tanks waiting for RIGHT HOUR.
They are KGB,after all.They could not be idiots.

I feared evil but competent KGB my entire life,and i refuse to stop now !

 

[TheRejectionist]

This is one of the things I really don't get about the Russiaboos and vatniks on here.

I could respect a 'I don't really trust any sources from either side' position. I think it's going too far in skepticism; there's enough data out there to come to some conclusions, but I can at least see the reasoning.

But it's things like this, where the Russians have promised biiiig, and not just fallen somewhat short, but failed utterly to follow through on it. And this isn't some minor side issue either, like an export-variant utility helicopter or something, this is a bloody flagship combat vehicle, one that's supposed to be the pride of the Russian army, and they've got what, six of them?

How these Russiaboos wilfully blind themselves to things like this, which aren't dependent on 'is the source pro-the-other-side?' or anything like that, I don't get. The corruption and failure is about as blatant as it can get, and in a central, front-line element of the Russian military.

That's pretty bloody indicative of what to expect from the rest of the Russian defense industry.

I mean you blind your side as well, it is just that yours has billions invested into a PR department. I can expect the defense industry of NATO to create pointless wars or worse.

 

[Zachowon]

A crappy tank can still provide both direct and indirect fire. T-55 gun is 100mm, not much use against modern tanks but still more then enough against BMPs, BTRs, M113s, heck, even a Bradley won't be "walking away" from a direct hit should one be scored. Never mind trucks and support vehicles, or fortified positions.
Sure, a large caliber mortar is better in indirect role, but in direct one not so much. Nor is a mortar as mobile if it needs to be set up and is not mounted on a vehicle - yes, our Rak M120s are quite excellent and Ukraine got a load of them. But they are not as damage resistant as even an old tank, and certainly not as "expendable".

A Bradley will see it, engage it, and move on before the 55 gets a chance to react.
We saw what happens when even 72s went up against Bradley's in DS.
It didn't end well for them, even against just the bushmaster

Plus it seems neither side can be all that picky, they use what they have, not what they would like. So having a T-55 still beats having a heavy MG on a pickup, or having nothing at all.
It's really a pity Poland got rid of it's T-55 fleet, ours were neatly upgraded (fire control system, laser detection and warning systems, bunch of other stuff) and could have been donated.

Why? A shit biscuit upgraded is still a shit biscuit.
When the fact that any if the modern stuff given to Ukraine is so new it would make a 55 hitting it damn near impossible if someone is actively paying attention.

Not as good as from a dedicated weapon that's for sure, but still beats having nothing at all. That was the whole Soviet idea of 3rd and 4th echelon tanks and armoured vehicles, the simplified "monkey models" of Soviet armour - by the time these would come out to play, other side was expected to have no armour at all

I don't need armor to defeat your armored advance.
When I can have Billy Bob and Joe carry man portable anti tank weaponry able to take out any and all armor you have, and they can be in places you will never see

 

[Buba]

When I can have Billy Bob and Joe carry man portable anti tank weaponry

Don't forget Jane! She can fire off her (shapely) hip!

 

[Zachowon]

Don't forget Jane! She can fire off her (shapely) hip!

I mean, in basic we learn to shoot AT4s so yeah Jane too

 

[The Whispering Monk]

AT4s SUCK at accuracy...just sayin'.

 

[Zachowon]

AT4s SUCK at accuracy...just sayin'.

Yeah, but when you have so many it really doesn't matter

 

[ATP]

Explains why Russians were so quick to start assembling them themselves.
Also demonstrates something about honor among thieves "Axis of Resistance".
For the record the estimated cost of such a drone is between $20k to $60k.

Well,both sides remember,that Iran fought/and lost/ many times with tsars of old.
P.S Could China made drone cheaper,but still working ?
If so,they could sell to Moscow,too.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

Explains why Russians were so quick to start assembling them themselves.
Also demonstrates something about honor among thieves "Axis of Resistance".
For the record the estimated cost of such a drone is between $20k to $60k.

Were those numbers actually in US Dollars, or were those numbers in Rubles or some other currency?

 

[Marduk]

Well,both sides remember,that Iran fought/and lost/ many times with tsars of old.
P.S Could China made drone cheaper,but still working ?
If so,they could sell to Moscow,too.

China insists on only selling civilian models because they are afraid of sanctions.

Were those numbers actually in US Dollars, or were those numbers in Rubles or some other currency?

Look at the currency signs...

 

[Poe]

IRGC Front Company Sahara Thunder Hacked by PRANA Network

PRANA Network announced that they had successfully hacked the email servers of an IRGC front company called Sahara Thunder who are facilitating the illegal sale of weapons from Iran to Russia.

irancybernews.org

You didn't even read that link did you? It mentions nothing of billions or the total amount of money spent, and only says they found evidence of multimillion dollar deals.

 

[Poe]

I don't know what are you asking for here, it confirms the hack in fact happened and contains this kind of data was leaked.
Didn't find complete data on open internet and it's not necessarily in a language either of us knows, so it would be worthless.
If you want to disbelieve the numbers, whatever, but no need for stubborn "it can't be in USD, prove it" kind of denial theme.
Here you have another, more mainstream site with more extensive financial math:

Hackers find out worth of Iranian drones sold to Russia

Hackers from the Prana Network group have compromised the mail servers of the Iranian company IRGC Sahara Thunder, which contained an array of data on the production of Shahed-136 attack drones for Russia.

news.yahoo.com

I'm not actually asking for anything, the other poster asked if the 1.8 billion figure was accurate and you provided him with the link I responded to. Just pointing out it doesnt say either way if the number is accurate.