Armchair General's DonbAss Derailed Discussion Thread (Topics Include History, Traps, and the Ongoing Slavic Civil War plus much much more)

My country took 5 months to end the Siege of Marawi, this is with Australian, American and Israeli intelligence assistance with Singaporean Logistic support which is my frame of reference on capturing cities. Also we have total Air superiority on that too hence if the Russian took it in less than a month I will still consider it impressive.

This entire conflict really gave me a lot new perspective on how fast a war could develop.

Wasn't most of the major fighting done in two or three months though? And while there was airstrikes and stuff, eighty percent of the city wasn't damaged or destroyed or whatever? And it was like a thousand militants in a city of 200,00? And the ISIS militants were actively holding up in Mosques and buildings towards the end, and legitimately holding lots of hostages that the Philippines didn't want to obliterate for expediency?

Mariupol is (was) twice the population of Marawi and the forces involved are several times bigger both in defense and attacking, and with far heavier weapons and mechanization and the like. Doesn't seem particularly comparable beyond broad strokes. Maybe if you compared it to something like the Sieges in the Syrian Civil War which were fairly long as well though that had more of an insurgency/guerrilla nature as well as conventional fighting, while here it's still more of the latter (but with stuff like attacking supply convoys and sniper attacks and the like).
 
My country took 5 months to end the Siege of Marawi, this is with Australian, American and Israeli intelligence assistance with Singaporean Logistic support which is my frame of reference on capturing cities. Also we have total Air superiority on that too hence if the Russian took it in less than a month I will still consider it impressive.

This entire conflict really gave me a lot new perspective on how fast a war could develop.
No offence, but the Philippines aren't Russia. They (Russia) try to throw their weight around and make out like they're a first rate world power. They (Or at least putin.) seem to have thought this fight would be like their actions propping up Assad. A bit of shock and awe, and then mopping up insurgents.

In reality, Russia is a third rate power at best. They've just invested heavily in a literal handful of shiny, expensive toys that mean nothing when an opponent fights back. Why hasn't the mighty armata already rolled down the streets of Kyiv? Why don't the Russians control the air with their oh so impressive su-57? Why weren't all Ukrainian military bases destroyed in the first 24 hours by "impossible to intercept" kinzhal strikes? Well, it's because Russia barely has enough money to buy the bare handful needed to grab click bait headlines. Hell, they've apparently basically run out of guided munitions for their air force, which is part of why they're launching dumb fire rockets at apartment buildings. (The other reason of cause being the pathetically spineless, morally bankrupt and militarily weak "stratergy" of attempting to make life so bad for the opposition they quit.)

You know what it looks like when a real major power fights someone below them? Consider the Israeli 6 day war, the Gulf war, or Iraq war. Look at Russia's own attacks in Syria or Chechnya. What we're seeing is not a superior asserting their dominance. It's a peer who sucker punched a victim who refused to be drawn into the fight, who specifically acted against their own military interests so there could be no mistakes about who started the fight. Ukraine basically gave Russia the first punch, and Russia are still a month later scared to operate their air force over enemy terrain, still losing forces and a ridiculously disproportionate rate, still unable to take their initial military objectives. Hell, if we leave NATO out of it and Russian nuclear forces too as a compromise, Poland alone could probably drive almost unopposed right up to Moscow. How low the mighty USSR has fallen, that they might be defeated entirely by just the Ukraine and Poland alone. It would be over in days if NATO didn't need to worry about the Russian Trump throwing a nuclear tantrum.
 
Wasn't most of the major fighting done in two or three months though? And while there was airstrikes and stuff, eighty percent of the city wasn't damaged or destroyed or whatever? And it was like a thousand militants in a city of 200,00? And the ISIS militants were actively holding up in Mosques and buildings towards the end, and legitimately holding lots of hostages that the Philippines didn't want to obliterate for expediency?
Yes, I agree but since I live just around 100+ km from Marawi it is the closest frame of reference I have of this War.
Mariupol is (was) twice the population of Marawi and the forces involved are several times bigger both in defense and attacking, and with far heavier weapons and mechanization and the like. Doesn't seem particularly comparable beyond broad strokes. Maybe if you compared it to something like the Sieges in the Syrian Civil War which were fairly long as well though that had more of an insurgency/guerrilla nature as well as conventional fighting, while here it's still more of the latter (but with stuff like attacking supply convoys and sniper attacks and the like).
I literally have those tabs from wikipedia about those battles ATM because my other reference is WWII and a book about the Battle of Kursk.
No offence, but the Philippines aren't Russia. They (Russia) try to throw their weight around and make out like they're a first rate world power. They (Or at least putin.) seem to have thought this fight would be like their actions propping up Assad. A bit of shock and awe, and then mopping up insurgents.
None taken. I'm just morbidly fascinated on how modern weapons and tactics used by two modern nations.

In reality, Russia is a third rate power at best. They've just invested heavily in a literal handful of shiny, expensive toys that mean nothing when an opponent fights back. Why hasn't the mighty armata already rolled down the streets of Kyiv? Why don't the Russians control the air with their oh so impressive su-57? Why weren't all Ukrainian military bases destroyed in the first 24 hours by "impossible to intercept" kinzhal strikes? Well, it's because Russia barely has enough money to buy the bare handful needed to grab click bait headlines. Hell, they've apparently basically run out of guided munitions for their air force, which is part of why they're launching dumb fire rockets at apartment buildings. (The other reason of cause being the pathetically spineless, morally bankrupt and militarily weak "stratergy" of attempting to make life so bad for the opposition they quit.)
I can't really comment on these because the closest contact I have with Russians are tourist.

You know what it looks like when a real major power fights someone below them? Consider the Israeli 6 day war, the Gulf war, or Iraq war. Look at Russia's own attacks in Syria or Chechnya. What we're seeing is not a superior asserting their dominance. It's a peer who sucker punched a victim who refused to be drawn into the fight, who specifically acted against their own military interests so there could be no mistakes about who started the fight. Ukraine basically gave Russia the first punch, and Russia are still a month later scared to operate their air force over enemy terrain, still losing forces and a ridiculously disproportionate rate, still unable to take their initial military objectives. Hell, if we leave NATO out of it and Russian nuclear forces too as a compromise, Poland alone could probably drive almost unopposed right up to Moscow. How low the mighty USSR has fallen, that they might be defeated entirely by just the Ukraine and Poland alone. It would be over in days if NATO didn't need to worry about the Russian Trump throwing a nuclear tantrum.
Thanks for the heads up. Do you think there documentaries of those in Youtube?
 
-Snip-
None taken. I'm just morbidly fascinated on how modern weapons and tactics used by two modern nations.

-Snip-

Thanks for the heads up. Do you think there documentaries of those in Youtube?
Well, I can't complain about the first part when I'm so endlessly fascinated about modern military conflict myself.

As to the second... Yes. There is more footage than you could watch in a lifetime about and from the mentioned conflicts. You might also consider the American deployment to Afghanistan, or the Falklands war as instructive.
 
No offence, but the Philippines aren't Russia. They (Russia) try to throw their weight around and make out like they're a first rate world power. They (Or at least putin.) seem to have thought this fight would be like their actions propping up Assad. A bit of shock and awe, and then mopping up insurgents.

In reality, Russia is a third rate power at best. They've just invested heavily in a literal handful of shiny, expensive toys that mean nothing when an opponent fights back. Why hasn't the mighty armata already rolled down the streets of Kyiv? Why don't the Russians control the air with their oh so impressive su-57? Why weren't all Ukrainian military bases destroyed in the first 24 hours by "impossible to intercept" kinzhal strikes? Well, it's because Russia barely has enough money to buy the bare handful needed to grab click bait headlines. Hell, they've apparently basically run out of guided munitions for their air force, which is part of why they're launching dumb fire rockets at apartment buildings. (The other reason of cause being the pathetically spineless, morally bankrupt and militarily weak "stratergy" of attempting to make life so bad for the opposition they quit.)

You know what it looks like when a real major power fights someone below them? Consider the Israeli 6 day war, the Gulf war, or Iraq war. Look at Russia's own attacks in Syria or Chechnya. What we're seeing is not a superior asserting their dominance. It's a peer who sucker punched a victim who refused to be drawn into the fight, who specifically acted against their own military interests so there could be no mistakes about who started the fight. Ukraine basically gave Russia the first punch, and Russia are still a month later scared to operate their air force over enemy terrain, still losing forces and a ridiculously disproportionate rate, still unable to take their initial military objectives. Hell, if we leave NATO out of it and Russian nuclear forces too as a compromise, Poland alone could probably drive almost unopposed right up to Moscow. How low the mighty USSR has fallen, that they might be defeated entirely by just the Ukraine and Poland alone. It would be over in days if NATO didn't need to worry about the Russian Trump throwing a nuclear tantrum.
You seem a bit too biased to take seriously. Russian Trump really? First off no Russia is not a 3rd rate power, how can you barely be a 3rd rate? That is the lowest possible aka Iraq or Afghan national army. The Russians are second rate,
Tell me what are these “rates” you talk about.
 
You seem a bit too biased to take seriously. Russian Trump really? First off no Russia is not a 3rd rate power, how can you barely be a 3rd rate? That is the lowest possible aka Iraq or Afghan national army. The Russians are second rate,
Tell me what are these “rates” you talk about.
Well, how would you rate things? To my mind, it's blatantly obvious that no nation on earth can hope to match the American armed forces in conventional warfare. Their degree of investment, the early stages from which they made that investment, their population, productivity, natural resources and land area are all factors, but the ultimate result is effectively the best forces overall. Like, if we look at conventional navies, globally America has something like half the meaningful tonnage and most of the best stuff. Like having >2/3 of the total aircraft carrier deck space. More tanks upgraded consistently to a higher level than anyone. Training and operational experience in all areas, and practice weaving together all elements of war fighting. Hell, they used to aim to be able to fight two major wars concurrently. They're slightly downgraded from that, but they're still one of the few legitimately preparing in peace for times of war.

Then there are other countries like China, UK, France, India and a few other major nations that can still defeat anyone below them with relative ease, but nonetheless would be no threat to America without escalating things to MAD levels. Then you've got everyone else. Russia looks like a second rate, pretends to be first rate but performs on a purely third rate level. With the depressing complication that their nuclear forces make the deserved and necessary defeat rather practically difficult. Much like North Korea.
 
1.Russian helicopters are using rockets from safe distance to not be schoot down - which mean,that they could hit by accident only.
2.People who made that post are idiots.How russians could liberate ukrainian city from ukrainians? and ,if it is liberation,why people there do not joined them first day?

Following that logic,Putin could destroy your city,capture it,and would you name it as liberation,too?
Allies bombed Germany to hell but they supposedly "liberated" it from Nazism.

Your point?

Also - 14.000 nazis.REALLY? even if Azow battalion was really nazi,tell me since when one battalion have 14.000 soldiers? it is dyvision.
And ,shouting about nazis is really cute when russian are waving red banners of soviet genociders,who wiped out russian nation.
The Ukrop-fascists expanded the battalion to a division a couple years ago.

I prefer the term "Kampfgruppe" though.
 
To a regiment to be exact. But they have received several wannabe fascists/nazis from Europe and America to expand/replace their forces, so the number can be correct.
 
Allies bombed Germany to hell but they supposedly "liberated" it from Nazism.

Your point?


The Ukrop-fascists expanded the battalion to a division a couple years ago.

I prefer the term "Kampfgruppe" though.

1.Only in current german propaganda they were liberated from bad polish nazis,everybody normal is taking about defeating germany.
2.They are fascist,or nazis? becouse it is not the same.Besides,battalion is battalion,not dyvision.Russians must kill 13.000 cyvilians there and added them to 1000 Azow soldier.Old NKWD trick.They killed ,let say,10.000 "bandits" as they named partisants,among them 500 had rifles.

Azow battalion would die,too.And become real ukrainian heroes.

P.S if @paulobrito have right and it is strong regiment,it is still 4000 max.So,russians killed and counted as Azow 10.000 cyvilians,not 13.000

P.S why do you support KGBstan there? if they have right to invade and "liberate" Ukraine,they could burn your country,too.
 
No @ATP, what I said is that the unit has been expanded to a Regiment. But, after that, received several - no official numbers - 'volunteers' from Europe and America. After all, neo-nazis exist on both continents. The total number of 'people' that passed/served in the Azov unit is not known. Is 14k too many? probably, but possible.
 
Well, how would you rate things? To my mind, it's blatantly obvious that no nation on earth can hope to match the American armed forces in conventional warfare.

America was militarily defeated and ejected from Afghanistan by the Taliban. No amount of hemming and hawing changes this fact. It was unable to even set up a stable Puppet Government. The Soviet Puppet Government actually managed to wipe out the Rebels and was in the process of re-integrating them into the government when the USSR fell. Even then it outlasted the USSR and its president never fled the country even after the Pakistanis bribed all his generals to switch sides.
 
Then let’s see the evidence for it, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence which suspiciously is never presented for the “Ghost” myth even as The Kyiv Independent was recently claiming he had bagged 49(!) kills.

List Of Aircraft Losses During The 2022 Russian Invasion Of Ukraine Knock yourself out buddy, there's plenty of downed choppers to pick from.

America was militarily defeated and ejected from Afghanistan by the Taliban. No amount of hemming and hawing changes this fact. It was unable to even set up a stable Puppet Government. The Soviet Puppet Government actually managed to wipe out the Rebels and was in the process of re-integrating them into the government when the USSR fell. Even then it outlasted the USSR and its president never fled the country even after the Pakistanis bribed all his generals to switch sides.

Mmm yes "the Soviets had WON but then they lost because their entire country aliven't" compelling argument there. Almost as compelling as "hiding in Pakistan for 20 years waiting for America to have more pressing problems to spend money on is a grand military victory!" So outside factors like their country collapsing is an excuse for the Soviets but having to focus on China isn't an excuse for the United States.

If the US actually does collapse from the inside out like you copenicks constantly predict will you change your analysis? 🤔

Because the S-400s annihilated them.

Russian S-400s have scored at least 2-5 UkAF fighter kills.

You... you do know the Ukrainians have more than 2-5 fighters, right? Like, significantly more? You can look up their numbers on Wikipedia, dude.
 
America was militarily defeated and ejected from Afghanistan by the Taliban. No amount of hemming and hawing changes this fact. It was unable to even set up a stable Puppet Government. The Soviet Puppet Government actually managed to wipe out the Rebels and was in the process of re-integrating them into the government when the USSR fell. Even then it outlasted the USSR and its president never fled the country even after the Pakistanis bribed all his generals to switch sides.
Yeah, IIRC they managed to hold out at least 3 years after the Soviets left.
And this despite all the support the Mujaheddin were getting.
Also, the USSR invested a lot less resources in them than the USA did in their Afghan allies.
 
Mmm yes "the Soviets had WON but then they lost because their entire country aliven't" compelling argument there. Almost as compelling as "hiding in Pakistan for 20 years waiting for America to have more pressing problems to spend money on is a grand military victory!" So outside factors like their country collapsing is an excuse for the Soviets but having to focus on China isn't an excuse for the United States.

If the US actually does collapse from the inside out like you copenicks constantly predict will you change your analysis? 🤔

The Taliban contested the US that entire time within Afghanistan and were seizing and controlling large portions of the countryside to use as bases, all right under the US's nose. The majority of its troops remained in Afghanistan and never went to Pakistan whose role and influence is exaggerated to ridiculous degrees to deflect from US failures.

As for USSR, they left the nation with a Government that had firm control of the Nation and defeated the rebels at Jalalabad so decisively that they did not reconstitute till the USSR fell and still required the Pakistanis to bribe generals to switch sides.
 
The Taliban contested the US that entire time within Afghanistan and were seizing and controlling large portions of the countryside to use as bases, all right under the US's nose. The majority of its troops remained in Afghanistan and never went to Pakistan whose role and influence is exaggerated to ridiculous degrees to deflect from US failures.

As for USSR, they left the nation with a Government that had firm control of the Nation and defeated the rebels at Jalalabad so decisively that they did not reconstitute till the USSR fell and still required the Pakistanis to bribe generals to switch sides.
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This is what happens when retarded liberal ideologies are left to run foreign policy.
And yes, I am talking about both the USA and the USSR.
The USSR had good relationships with the ruling regime in the country, but because a few commies got killed when they rioted the USSR's Sloppy Joe Brandon decided to invade.
Then Murikha had to give money to Brizinski's pet morons in the area, then they had to go in to blow up the friends of said morons and try and build democracy there.
When eaving the local rulers in place and getting them to industrialize and educate the locals but broadly keep the power structure in tact would have been better.
 
Well, how would you rate things? To my mind, it's blatantly obvious that no nation on earth can hope to match the American armed forces in conventional warfare. Their degree of investment, the early stages from which they made that investment, their population, productivity, natural resources and land area are all factors, but the ultimate result is effectively the best forces overall. Like, if we look at conventional navies, globally America has something like half the meaningful tonnage and most of the best stuff. Like having >2/3 of the total aircraft carrier deck space. More tanks upgraded consistently to a higher level than anyone. Training and operational experience in all areas, and practice weaving together all elements of war fighting. Hell, they used to aim to be able to fight two major wars concurrently. They're slightly downgraded from that, but they're still one of the few legitimately preparing in peace for times of war.

Then there are other countries like China, UK, France, India and a few other major nations that can still defeat anyone below them with relative ease, but nonetheless would be no threat to America without escalating things to MAD levels. Then you've got everyone else. Russia looks like a second rate, pretends to be first rate but performs on a purely third rate level. With the depressing complication that their nuclear forces make the deserved and necessary defeat rather practically difficult. Much like North Korea.
America breaks the scale. Like it's technically 1st rate but it should be higher, but it can't be higher because number 1 is best. Other 1st rates are Britain, France, Japan, past Germany, and the Soviet Union. Basically nations that have a rather large army, that can dominate it's local area at least, and is well trained, and has good tactics and technology.
2nd rate would be an average nation think Poland, Romania, Ukraine, modern Germany, modern Russia. 2nd rate will have the most variance there are 2nd rates that get close to being 1st rate but they just aren't dominant enough Spain or Italy come to mind, also the low 2nd rates are those that aren't quite failed states but could end up there, if Russia keeps embarrasing itself it might go there or even 3rd. But for now they are a mid to mid high 2nd rate. But yeah most nations aren't shitheaps so they are here.
3rd rates are basket cases your average middle eastern dictatorship, or African hellhole. A high 3rd rate would be Saadam's Iraq, or current Syria under Assad. Low third rate are literal tribesmen with guns or spears. You can't go below 3rd rate, there is no such thing as a 4th rate or lower.
 
The Taliban contested the US that entire time within Afghanistan and were seizing and controlling large portions of the countryside to use as bases, all right under the US's nose.

lmao no they didn't, they kept the majority of their command, control, and logistics base in Pakistan, where the US couldn't reach them. You think it's an accident that Osama Bin Laden was caught a stone's throw from Pakistan's major military academy? When you have an enemy who's vital rear areas can never be assailed, even if you vaporize his army he'll have all the time in the world to just build another one.

This exact same thing happened in Korea, Iraq, and Vietnam. Korea is especially notable because the Chinese Army actually joined the war directly against America. With Iraq, the "civil war" was mostly foreign fighters trained and equipped in Iran. Iran even mass-produced off-road EFP mines to send over the border. (Many of the same people who were in power and did absolutely nothing to punish Iran for this - or even rewarded them for it - would later screech their heads off when Trump turned Soleimani into meaty gibs. Make of that what you will.) Now review the scorecard:

Korea: Now highly stable and... about as healthy a democracy as any SE Asian nation has managed (lol Japan) at the cost of decades of permanent military presence to guard them, adding up to untold trillions of dollars over the years since the Armistice. Oh, and a nuclear entanglement potential, too.

Vietnam: War was actually won, and then the government we supported and defended collapsed... after Democrats gained control of Congress and promptly chopped the funding support, throwing away everything thousands of Americans died for. Is that better or worse than the funding being cut because the war itself was a key contributor to the collapse of the state that started it? 🤔

Iraq: Actually, unambiguously won. Twice, first against Iran, then against ISIS. We won the prize, though not many people think it was worth the cost, given how much military modernization is yet to be done and the ever-nearer conflict with China. On the silver-linings side, Trump was in just long enough to prevent the usual fuckheads from making Kurdistan a permanent vassal state with an equally permanent US military commitment; because apparently one Korea isn't enough!

Now, look at all that, and tell me - what do you think Putin's chances in Ukraine are, with fuel, food, medical supplies and weapons pouring into Ukraine through Poland?

Y'see, the tragedy of Afghanistan is that it could have gone very differently. If you want to fight a forever war, you have to fight it AS a forever war. You commit to a strategy that you can afford to maintain indefinitely. In Afghanistan's case, that means you set up shop in that one province the Taliban never did manage to subjugate, and let the Taliban "have" Afghanistan. And every now and then you send some high-speed-low-drag boys outside the wire in the dark of night and they come back with a few severed heads. If the Taliban want Afghanistan? Let them have it! Let them run constant patrols. Let them keep one eye on the sky, always wondering if there's a Reaper with a laser paint on their dome. That's a cheap way to fight. The Taliban were able to fight asymmetric war for two decades with RPGs and rifles, and if it had taken 40 years for more pressing spending priorities to crop up for the Americans, they could've done that, too. But have you seen asymmetric war with the toys we have? With Switchblade drones and Javelin missiles and- oh. Well. I guess you have now, haven't you? 😏

You know who else has all those toys? Yeah. You know the guy. You know who has all those toys but not nearly enough of them to go balls deep into the ant nest for twenty fucking years like the Americans did? Yeah. Same guy. You do the math on how this ends.
 
If you are one of these that believe that OBL is killed in Pakistan - at a time that is oh so convenient for the Obama election - and that the US so conveniently never produced a once of evidence - including that all the supposed involved operators died in a very short time, then you are part of the club that I can sell that proverbial bridge in that deserted place...
Some people are so gullible that is not even funny.
 
If you are one of these that believe that OBL is killed in Pakistan - at a time that is oh so convenient for the Obama election - and that the US so conveniently never produced a once of evidence - including that all the supposed involved operators died in a very short time, then you are part of the club that I can sell that proverbial bridge in that deserted place...
Some people are so gullible that is not even funny.

You can literally find the pictures on Google. Because Senators and Congressmen were passing them around like party favors to ooh and aahh. All you're doing is illustrating what a shithead Obama is, and why his persistent belief that he could pick up a turd by the clean end just ended up getting shit all over everything he did. Fucking clown tried to strut around like you could hear his balls clinking together from the press box during his re-election bid after having acted all squeamish and ~restrained~ over having ordered the death of some universally-hated asshole.
 

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