Armchair General's DonbAss Derailed Discussion Thread (Topics Include History, Traps, and the Ongoing Slavic Civil War plus much much more)

Marduk

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No, he hasn't as @Marduk is polish and wouldn't be bothered to give a damn about it and even then I wouldn't say we are entitled to the Monroe doctrine.
In fact i did hear of it. If USA was interpreting it the same way Russia is interpreting its "sphere of influence" now, there would have never been a Cuban Missile Crisis, because there would have never been a communist Cuba, at least not for very long.
 

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
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You... You really going to go there again?
Try me, I find it very unlikely that
1) The original of the would leak out.
2) That metadata would not be doctored in any way by interested parties.

Third, even if the speech was canned it proves nothing but the fact that the Russians were prepared for all eventualities.
One does not draw war plans when an actual war starts, I think that a certain war plan for an US invasion of Canada for example is the subject of quite a few memes and AH WIs on here.

Yes, all countries have foreign policy. Its a policy doctrine, not a "sphere of influence" of practically non-independent countries.


Those areas are only the excuse for Russia's operation. The true goal of it is to ensure that Ukraine, most or all of it, remains a Russian puppet state or something like that, one way or another. "Incidents" would have happened on the border, or whatever else, more demands that couldn't be met, Russia or separatists would have thought up something.
Ever heard of the Banana Wars,guess not,lol!
The Banana Wars were a series of conflicts that consisted of military occupation, police action, and intervention by the United States in Central America and the Caribbean between the end of the Spanish–American War in 1898 and the inception of the Good Neighbor Policy in 1934.[1] The military interventions were primarily carried out by the United States Marine Corps, who also developed a manual, the Small Wars Manual (1921) based on their experiences. On occasion, the United States Navy provided gunfire support and troops from the United States Army were also deployed.

With the Treaty of Paris signed in 1898, control of Cuba, Puerto Rico, Guam, and the Philippines fell to the United States (surrendered from Spain). Following this, the United States proceeded to conduct military interventions in Cuba, Panama, Honduras, Nicaragua, Mexico, Haiti, and the Dominican Republic. These conflicts ended with the withdrawal of troops from Haiti in 1934 under President Franklin D. Roosevelt.

The term "banana wars" was popularized in 1983[2] by writer Lester D. Langley. Langley wrote several books on Latin American history and American intervention, including: The United States and the Caribbean, 1900–1970 and The Banana Wars: An Inner History of American Empire, 1900–1934. His work regarding the Banana Wars encompasses the entire United States tropical empire, which overtook the western hemisphere, spanning both of Roosevelt presidencies. The term was popularized through this writing and portrayed the United States as a police force sent to reconcile these warring tropical countries, lawless societies and corrupt politicians; essentially establishing US reign over tropical trade. Hundreds of American soldiers and thousands of locals died in the Banana Wars.
And the only reason they had to do all this later on and not immediately after the doctrine was formulated was because the British were more than happy to help enforce it for them.
EDIT:
In fact i did hear of it. If USA was interpreting it the same way Russia is interpreting its "sphere of influence" now, there would have never been a Cuban Missile Crisis, because there would have never been a communist Cuba, at least not for very long.
The USA had a very friendly, very nasty dictator helping them out in Cuba Fulgencio Batista
nd as its U.S.-backed military dictator from 1952 to 1959 before being overthrown during the Cuban Revolution. Batista initially rose to power as part of the 1933 Revolt of the Sergeants, which overthrew the provisional government of Carlos Manuel de Céspedes y Quesada. He then appointed himself chief of the armed forces, with the rank of colonel and effectively controlled the five-member "pentarchy" that functioned as the collective head of state. He maintained this control through a string of puppet presidents until 1940, when he was himself elected President of Cuba on a populist platform.[3][4] He then instated the 1940 Constitution of Cuba[5] and served until 1944. After finishing his term, Batista moved to Florida, returning to Cuba to run for president in 1952. Facing certain electoral defeat, he led a military coup against President Carlos Prío Socarrás that pre-empted the election.[6]

Back in power and receiving financial, military and logistical support from the United States government,[7][8] Batista suspended the 1940 Constitution and revoked most political liberties, including the right to strike. He then aligned with the wealthiest landowners who owned the largest sugar plantations, and presided over a stagnating economy that widened the gap between rich and poor Cubans.[9] Eventually it reached the point where most of the sugar industry was in U.S. hands, and foreigners owned 70% of the arable land.[10] As such, Batista's repressive government then began to systematically profit from the exploitation of Cuba's commercial interests, by negotiating lucrative relationships both with the American Mafia, who controlled the drug, gambling, and prostitution businesses in Havana, and with large U.S.-based multinational companies who were awarded lucrative contracts.[9][11] To quell the growing discontent amongst the populace—which was subsequently displayed through frequent student riots and demonstrations—Batista established tighter censorship of the media, while also utilizing his Bureau for the Repression of Communist Activities secret police to carry out wide-scale violence, torture and public executions. These murders mounted in 1957, as socialist ideas became more influential. Many people were killed, with estimates ranging from hundreds to about 20,000 people killed.[12][13][14][15][16][17][18]
Now that is one bad hombre.
TL;DR Murika backed total assholes and idiots and promptly lost Cuba.
Castro was happy to have Russian nuclear weapons on Cuban soil because he saw it as a deterrent against the USA.
 
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Marduk

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And the only reason they had to do all this later on and not immediately after the doctrine was formulated was because the British were more than happy to help enforce it for them.
And yet somehow, after almost 2 centuries of Monroe Doctrine, these countries are all independent, and in fact most of them are somehow allowed to have governments not exactly very friendly to USA.
 

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
And yet somehow, after almost 2 centuries of Monroe Doctrine, these countries are all independent, and in fact most of them are somehow allowed to have governments not exactly very friendly to USA.
Let us wait and see how the situation goes for the former USSR republics in 2 centuries, then I can comment on that.
 

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
Lol. So far the record is, there are former USSR republics that joined NATO, and former USSR republics that either are Russia's puppet states or in process of becoming that.
So Canada and Latin America.

Also,do go check out my post about Batista.
And let us not forget shitshows like Iran-Contras.
Numerous other XX century interventions in Latin American affairs.
Or the USA propping up the Shah of Iran and Saddam Husein.
Or Kermit Roosevelt hiring a circus to stir up trouble for the incompetent, but democratically elected government of Iran a few decades prior.

Do you read any history asides from your own country's very narrow ana nationalistic interpretation of your own country's history?
 

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
That was proxy warfare only, with a freaking militia at that.
No USMC storming the island with carrier and battleship support though, which would be the equivalent of what Russia is doing now.
Bay of Pigs Invasion
Over 1,400 paramilitaries, divided into five infantry battalions and one paratrooper battalion, assembled in Guatemala before setting out for Cuba by boat on 13 April. On 15 April, eight CIA-supplied B-26 bombers attacked Cuban air fields and returned to the U.S. On the night of 16 April, the main invasion landed at a beach named Playa Girón in the Bay of Pigs. It initially overwhelmed a local revolutionary militia. The Cuban Army's counter-offensive was led by Captain José Ramón Fernández, before Castro decided to take personal control of the operation. On 20 April, the invaders finally surrendered, with the majority of troops being publicly interrogated and then sent back to the U.S.

The failed invasion strengthened the position of Castro's administration, who proceeded to openly proclaim their intention to adopt socialism and strengthen ties with the Soviet Union.

Strength


Casualties and losses

Brigade 2506:
  • 118 killed
  • 360 wounded[d]
1,202 captured (including wounded)[e]
  • Hundreds executed[6]
  • 5 B-26 bombers shot down
United States:
  • 4 killed
  • 2 B-26 bombers shot down
  • 2 supply ships lost

 

Floridaman

Well-known member
In 1961, this wasn't Korea or Israeli I-War. It was a time when Mig-21's were in service already.
The seven day war was in 1967, the bay of pigs as you said was 1961. Armies never give their lesser tools like rebels the modern weapons with very rare exceptions because then it is obvious you backed them. And you want them calling for help to have plausible deniability at least for your own people.
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
Sotnik
I love the Whatsboutism that's constantly derailing the thread so we can talk about the Bay of Pigs and Mexican War and other stupid nonsensical non-sequiters and red herrings that are shitting up this thread which is assumedly about the Russian Invasion of the Ukraine.

#RememberTheMaine
 

Floridaman

Well-known member
I love the Whatsboutism that's constantly derailing the thread so we can talk about the Bay of Pigs and Mexican War and other stupid nonsensical non-sequiters and red herrings that are shitting up this thread which is assumedly about the Russian Invasion of the Ukraine.

#RememberTheMaine
The original point about it was in response to someone claiming that using rebels to justify an invasion was unique, or was some great never before committed atrocity. The point that other countries including the US did the exact same thing isn’t whataboutism, it is a point that this is nothing new in the history of the world
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
Sotnik
The original point about it was in response to someone claiming that using rebels to justify an invasion was unique, or was some great never before committed atrocity. The point that other countries including the US did the exact same thing isn’t whataboutism, it is a point that this is nothing new in the history of the world

Don't care. It's literally derailing this thread into the same stupid tepid and repetitive arguments that polluted the previous thread. Someone says something negative about Putin then some generic response of Texas War of Independence/Monroe Doctrine/American Revolution/Remember the Maine blah blah blah. Then everyone shits their opinions for a few pages of repetitive textual diarrhea.
 

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
The point that other countries including the US did the exact same thing isn’t whataboutism, it is a point that this is nothing new in the history of the world
Yup, and in the US book it is "fine when we do it..."
We also need to add ISIS,the Kurds, AQ, the Mujahadeen and a few other rebel groups the USA bankrolled and supplied with state of the art weapons,too.

Murikan/Western warhawks are hypocrites and the Pole has tunnel vision and selective amnesia, and as I said, little knowledge of world history beyond "Russia bad".
A Sisyphean task, I might add.

They also underestimate the contribution US involvement and Ukrainian stupidity played in this whole mess.
 

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