Alternate History Map Thread

Basileus_Komnenos

Imperator Romanorum Βασιλεύς των Ρωμαίων
And of course Croatia gets the whole of BiH :)
I mean that was part of the Medieval Croatian Kingdom at one point. When Croatia was independent it asserted its control over the Banate of Bosnia, though after the Hungarian King inherited Bonsia in the 11th Century, they asserted control over Bonsia which waxed and waned during this period.

Though Bosnia became fully independent of Hungary when King Tkvtvo started expanding into what was considered Western Serbia and Crowned himself King in 1377. Unfortunately the Kingdom stagnated after his death with his successors fighting over the throne. This was bad timing as during this period the Ottomans were expanding throughout the Balkans.
 

VictortheMonarch

Victor the Crusader
Yeah it's the basemap for the Paradox Game: Imperator Rome.

I'm honestly glad I saved, since you can't really find it online anymore.
Here's the 4k version. I have a bigger and more detailed 8k version of this map, but its too large to upload on imgur. I'll threadmark it so its more widely accessible.

C58EmE7.jpg

Here's the blank basemap I use for my alt history map. Feel free to use it. I got it from Imperator Rome.​
Danke! Möge Gott dich segnen.
 

VictortheMonarch

Victor the Crusader
When I was a child those were the only places I thought existed over there.
Ahh, yeah. foreigners typically think they are the highlights of America, but they're simply crimedens nowadays. Honestly, if you do want to move to the US. Or someone you know wants to, move to the South, or Central US. They both have booming Economies, and its easy to pay taxes and the such. It's practically impossible to live in California or New York now, as to live a decent life there, any wage under 30 USD an hour is under the poverty line there. And the bureaucrats are corrupt to high hell. See Cuomo for reference. Anyways, imma get off of that shit... I don't like talking about those hell holes.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
The Marble Emperor's Revenge! - An Alternate Ending to the Greco-Turkish War
OZcS9f9.png
A map depicting Greece's borders after the Greco-Turkish Wars c. 1936 just prior to WWII

As you can see, in ttl, Greece emerged as a victor of the Greco-Turkish War, which in ttl is known also known as the Roman of Restoration within Greece. In ttl Greek propagandists and historians paint the war and the years following Greek independence as part of a larger national struggle for liberation. From an objective perspective, the success of the Balkan Wars and the subsequent Greco-Turkish Wars did allow Greece to emerge as a truly independent state free from economic hegemony under the French and British where it emerged as a strong regional power and the focus of the Orthodox world as Greece with control over Mt. Athos and the restored Patriarchate of Constantinople.

The main pod for this is that the Assassination attempt against King George I is thwarted, and thus Greece has a more pro-entente government which enters WWI earlier after the British promise Cyprus and Northern Epirus to the Greeks. One critical divergence from otl here is that Greece has a much more stable government. A major consequence of this is that the schism between the Venizelists and Constantine's supporters are avoided with King George serving as a mediator between both sides. Thus Prince Constantine is made the head of a better prepared Greek army which helps to relieve the Serbians and has a better military performance in the war which leaves it seen as a much more respected nation at the peace table. Here Greece manages to take Constantinople, but are forced to give it up as part of an international zone. Greece is instead compensated with land in Smyrna. In ttl, Attaturk is killed at Gallipoli leaving Turkey with much less competent government under the Sultanate.

With Smyrna under Greek occupation, the Megali idea of "liberating" the Greeks in Asia and creating a Trans-Aegan state becomes popular. And following King George's death after the end of the War, the new King Constantine takes the throne as "Constantine I and XII." As both Venizelos and Constantine were forced to compromise during the war, the two form a working relationship which leads to a general rapprochement following Constantine's ascension to the throne with the two united in a desire to realize the vision of a "Greater Greece." The Greco-Turkish War here results in a much better prepared and led Greek Army which manages to take over the Western Aegean with the Greek and French armies forcing the Turks to sign a humiliating peace deal after the Greeks capture the main army and eventually Anakara. This left Turkey to a very much reduced in size and out for revenge in the Second World War.

As for the French, Cilicia is ceded back to Turkey which forces many Cilician Armenians to flee to Greece and Armenia fearing reprisals from a vengeful Turkish army. Though the a Kurdish state is setup as a joint Anglo-French puppet alongside an independent Assyrian state. Here in ttl, rather than Wilsonian Armenia being created, the Armenia is a slightly bigger version of the First Republic with it having sea access by virtue of the port city of Batumi. This is a point of contention between the Georgia and Armenia, but these concerns are swept aside with the later rise of the Turkish State forcing the two to band together for mutual protection with Greek support who also allies with Kurdistan mirroring the interbellum "Little Entente" formed in the Balkans to contain a Revanchist Hungary.

With their hold on Constantinople tenuous, it is handed to Greece who re-establish it as their Capital where King Constantine crowns himself in a ceremony reminiscent of the Romans of old as Constantine XII fulfilling the legend of the Marble Emperor retaking the Imperial City. Though this title isn't initially taken seriously until after WW2 when the Empire was cemented as an enduring political entity. Within Greece King Constantine is seen as a highly popular figure (even more than otl) as a "liberator" for the Greeks. Prior to the seizure of Constantinople Prime minister Venizelos was assassinated by a Communist which shocked the public. And with fears of Bolshevism on the rise the Soviets winning the Russian Civil War and the later Battle of Warsaw, which causes the Venezelists rally around the Emperor who created a new more monarchical government. This coalition party of Conservatives, Nationalist, and Venezelists unite against the rising Red Tide sweeping through Europe. This sees a more nationalist government take hold rallying around the Emperor turning Greece into more of de-facto one party Royalist dictatorship.

While things look bright on the surface for the Greeks, the issue of Ethnic tensions remains which leads to a dark chapter in the human history as this period is rife with atrocities committed against each other. In accordance with the treaty of Lausanne, a population transfer was to take place. Though this ended causing a massive humanitarian crisis as millions of people were displaced from their homes.

And with the Fall of Poland and the Caucuses, many in Europe began to fear a wider Communist Revolution throughout Europe. And with the fall of the Caucuses to the Red Tide in the early 1920's, the Ottoman Sultan was overthrown in favor of a shaky and short-lived Turkish Republic which too collapses further into civil war where a new Turkish Socialist Republic emerges victorious both friendly to Moscow and burning with a desire to retake its lost land and avenge its humiliation.

Within Germany, panic spread which led to instability within the Weimar Republic that led to its eventual downfall. Within Austria Kaiser Karl was able to reclaim his throne, and through a plebiscite, managed regain South Tyrol except for Trentino following pro-Austrian riots leading to an internationally mediated plebiscite being held. This feeling of a mutilated victory would contribute to the rise of the Italian dictator Benito Mussolini in the 1920's.

The year is now 1936 and the young Empire of the Romans now finds itself on shaky ground as its surrounded by enemy nations and an unstable economic situation. Will the legacy of the Marble Emperor be preserved, or will it be smashed to pieces by the oncoming Red Tide?

What do you guys think of this map and lore? I'm thinking of making a larger map encompassing Europe around this time period if you guys are interested.

Where exactly is Greece going to find settlers for this state? Would it have enough Greeks eager to move to western Anatolia?

Also, Yes, please do make a larger map of Europe during this time. :)
 

Basileus_Komnenos

Imperator Romanorum Βασιλεύς των Ρωμαίων
Where exactly is Greece going to find settlers for this state?
Well there were a pretty sizeable number of Greeks on the Anatolian side of the "Hellispont." I'm also assuming that Greece would also experience a wave of immigration from the fleeing Pontic Greeks and Cilician Armenians fleeing Turkish forces and their reprisals.

There might also be some Greek muslims as well. Though overall you'd be in for a pretty bad time if you were an ethnic or religious minority in either this alternate Greece/Turkey.

Also, Yes, please do make a larger map of Europe during this time. :)
I was making a larger map about this tl, but I lost the original file for it a while ago.

I am however making some maps for my Napoleon II timeline on AH: Imperator Francorum which I'll eventually post here as well.

So far for that map I've completed France and the borders of the individual states within the German Confederation. The German Confederation's borders were the hardest parts, but they've come out really well much to my own surprise.

L3HT1Mw.png

As you can see the map is largely still in the drafting phase. Though those extra northern bits of territory above France near Luxembourg (ignore the partition of Luxmbourg) were the bits of Territory which France had in 1814 during the First Treaty of Paris after Napoleon's first defeat.

However in my tl, France never goes through the Hundred Days Campaign as Napoleon is killed in battle in 1814.
 

stevep

Well-known member
Well there were a pretty sizeable number of Greeks on the Anatolian side of the "Hellispont." I'm also assuming that Greece would also experience a wave of immigration from the fleeing Pontic Greeks and Cilician Armenians fleeing Turkish forces and their reprisals.

There might also be some Greek muslims as well. Though overall you'd be in for a pretty bad time if you were an ethnic or religious minority in either this alternate Greece/Turkey.


I was making a larger map about this tl, but I lost the original file for it a while ago.

I am however making some maps for my Napoleon II timeline on AH: Imperator Francorum which I'll eventually post here as well.

So far for that map I've completed France and the borders of the individual states within the German Confederation. The German Confederation's borders were the hardest parts, but they've come out really well much to my own surprise.

L3HT1Mw.png

As you can see the map is largely still in the drafting phase. Though those extra northern bits of territory above France near Luxembourg (ignore the partition of Luxmbourg) were the bits of Territory which France had in 1814 during the First Treaty of Paris after Napoleon's first defeat.

However in my tl, France never goes through the Hundred Days Campaign as Napoleon is killed in battle in 1814.

There were Greek Muslims and Turkish speaking Christians but Ataturk insisted on a religious divide when he forced the redistribuition of populations after the war. As such Christians, other than those in Constantinople/Istanbul itself for a while were forces westwards and given the plight of Greece most/all Muslims were forced east in turn. In this scenario a less desperate Greece might seek to keep Greek speaking Muslims but will agree its likely to be tough for any minority.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Well there were a pretty sizeable number of Greeks on the Anatolian side of the "Hellispont." I'm also assuming that Greece would also experience a wave of immigration from the fleeing Pontic Greeks and Cilician Armenians fleeing Turkish forces and their reprisals.

There might also be some Greek muslims as well. Though overall you'd be in for a pretty bad time if you were an ethnic or religious minority in either this alternate Greece/Turkey.


I was making a larger map about this tl, but I lost the original file for it a while ago.

I am however making some maps for my Napoleon II timeline on AH: Imperator Francorum which I'll eventually post here as well.

So far for that map I've completed France and the borders of the individual states within the German Confederation. The German Confederation's borders were the hardest parts, but they've come out really well much to my own surprise.

L3HT1Mw.png

As you can see the map is largely still in the drafting phase. Though those extra northern bits of territory above France near Luxembourg (ignore the partition of Luxmbourg) were the bits of Territory which France had in 1814 during the First Treaty of Paris after Napoleon's first defeat.

However in my tl, France never goes through the Hundred Days Campaign as Napoleon is killed in battle in 1814.

This might be an unorthodox suggestion, but what about allowing Russians, Ukrainians, Belarusians, Georgians, and other Eastern Orthodox peoples who are fleeing Communism to resettle in western Anatolia?
 
Last edited:

stevep

Well-known member
This might be an unorthodox suggestion, but what about allowing Russians, Ukrainians, Belarusians, Georgians, and other Eastern Orthodox peoples who are fleeing Communism to resettle in eastern Anatolia?

I think you mean western Anatolia but could probably be a useful source of settlers. Used it myself in a short TL I wrote elsewhere with Wrangle's exiles. Down side of course is that you have the hatred of the Soviets but then what else is new. ;)
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
I think you mean western Anatolia but could probably be a useful source of settlers. Used it myself in a short TL I wrote elsewhere with Wrangle's exiles. Down side of course is that you have the hatred of the Soviets but then what else is new. ;)

Yes, I meant western Anatolia.

And it's Wrangel, not Wrangle. ;)

Why is hatred of the Soviets a problem? There's no common border with the USSR due to Turkey being in the way, after all.
 

Basileus_Komnenos

Imperator Romanorum Βασιλεύς των Ρωμαίων
In this scenario a less desperate Greece might seek to keep Greek speaking Muslims but will agree its likely to be tough for any minority.
Part of my tl involves a much more successful Greece with the divergence going back to the Greek War of independence. One of the Pod's I'm thinking of is a successful Phanariot movement which sparks a much more widespread Greek independence movement in addition to a war between the Russians and Ottomans.

This might be an unorthodox suggestion, but what about allowing Russians, Ukrainians, Belarusians, Georgians, and other Eastern Orthodox peoples who are fleeing Communism to resettle in western Anatolia?
Oh yeah part of this maps involves a good deal of Russian exiles moving to Greece after the failure of the White movement during the Russian Civil War.

Why is hatred of the Soviets a problem?
Well there would be tensions regarding the straits and issues regarding Turkey. If Greece has bad relations with the Soviets you could see the Soviets allying with Turkey against Greece instead.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Part of my tl involves a much more successful Greece with the divergence going back to the Greek War of independence. One of the Pod's I'm thinking of is a successful Phanariot movement which sparks a much more widespread Greek independence movement in addition to a war between the Russians and Ottomans.


Oh yeah part of this maps involves a good deal of Russian exiles moving to Greece after the failure of the White movement during the Russian Civil War.


Well there would be tensions regarding the straits and issues regarding Turkey. If Greece has bad relations with the Soviets you could see the Soviets allying with Turkey against Greece instead.

Good analysis. Quite interesting to see Russians support the Turks over the Greeks after fighting the Turks for centuries!
 

stevep

Well-known member
Good analysis. Quite interesting to see Russians support the Turks over the Greeks after fighting the Turks for centuries!

Well the Soviets did arm and support Ataturk and his people against the Greeks OTL and they carved up the Caucasus region between them. The Russians, once they reached the Black Sea anyway are always going to want to control the straits so will be hostile to the power which looks likely to control them, which ~1920-22 was Greece.

Plus given its sheer size, despite the devastation of the civil war, which probably did more damage to the 'Russian' empire than WWI and then the disaster that was the Bolsheviks as a governing party, was always going to be the big player in the Black Sea whether it was friendly or hostile to Turkey.
 

VictortheMonarch

Victor the Crusader
I made this map as a what if Robert Guiscard had decided to conquer Italy instead of dicking around in the Balkans. I personally love Robert The Fox the most out of any medieval king/duke.

Hauteville-Italy-1100.png


After several generations, all of Italy (save the city of Rome, occupied by the pope) would fall into Hauteville hands. They would survive to the modern day as one of the oldest ruling dynasties.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
I made this map as a what if Robert Guiscard had decided to conquer Italy instead of dicking around in the Balkans. I personally love Robert The Fox the most out of any medieval king/duke.

Hauteville-Italy-1100.png


After several generations, all of Italy (save the city of Rome, occupied by the pope) would fall into Hauteville hands. They would survive to the modern day as one of the oldest ruling dynasties.

Tunisia and western Libya will become re-Christianized?
 

VictortheMonarch

Victor the Crusader
Tunisia and western Libya will become re-Christianized?

I would like to say... kinda? that really depends. Knowing the descendants of Robert the Fox, I wouldn't be surprised if some of them pushed for Christianization, but that doesn't just happen overnight. So I would say around sixty percent is Christian in these areas on average. fluctuating depending on where you are. They would however speak largely Italian.

That said, I forgot to say the map is a image of Italia in 1492. I plan to upload a greatest extent map later. working on it rn.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
I would like to say... kinda? that really depends. Knowing the descendants of Robert the Fox, I wouldn't be surprised if some of them pushed for Christianization, but that doesn't just happen overnight. So I would say around sixty percent is Christian in these areas on average. fluctuating depending on where you are. They would however speak largely Italian.

That said, I forgot to say the map is a image of Italia in 1492. I plan to upload a greatest extent map later. working on it rn.

60% Christian for 1492 is actually pretty good. If Italy will hold onto it up to the present-day, then it could be as high as 90+% Christian. Also depends if Italy will do anything similar to the Inquisition there.

Looks like South Tyrol is NOT a part of Italy in this TL, right? Trentino is, though.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top