Alternate History Ideas and Discussion

[Atarlost]

...Huh?

Obama didn't have enough history to be elected on his positions or accomplishments. He was only halfway through his freshman term as senator. The only explanation for Obama winning the primary was that he was a black person selling expiation for imagined racial guilt.

That the white guilt and black racist constituencies were big enough to push him from what should have been no delegates at all based on his lack of experience to victory in the primary suggests it was also large enough to swing the general election when added to the "would vote for a glass of water if it had a 'D' next to it" constituency. The issues didn't matter and thus Iraq and the recession didn't matter. Anyone who was going to vote based on issues was already looking at Obama's record and figuring he needed a lot of seasoning.

Obama's position was hollow because he did not have slave ancestors. He was lily white on his mother's side and present day west African (and not Liberian) on his father's: the people who won their tribal wars and sold the losers to white slave traders, ie. fellow exploiters not victims. But because the racial guilt idea is deeply racist only an American black with roots going back to before the Civil War could have said that and had the people who bought into racial guilt listen.

 

[Zyobot]

Obama didn't have enough history to be elected on his positions or accomplishments. He was only halfway through his freshman term as senator. The only explanation for Obama winning the primary was that he was a black person selling expiation for imagined racial guilt.

That the white guilt and black racist constituencies were big enough to push him from what should have been no delegates at all based on his lack of experience to victory in the primary suggests it was also large enough to swing the general election when added to the "would vote for a glass of water if it had a 'D' next to it" constituency. The issues didn't matter and thus Iraq and the recession didn't matter. Anyone who was going to vote based on issues was already looking at Obama's record and figuring he needed a lot of seasoning.

Obama's position was hollow because he did not have slave ancestors. He was lily white on his mother's side and present day west African (and not Liberian) on his father's: the people who won their tribal wars and sold the losers to white slave traders, ie. fellow exploiters not victims. But because the racial guilt idea is deeply racist only an American black with roots going back to before the Civil War could have said that and had the people who bought into racial guilt listen.

Alright, well, thanks for clarifying.

'No Star Wars Holiday Special'. Frankly, I'm amazed that the franchise bounced back as much as it did after airing that train wreck. What made audiences forget about it in time for the premiere of Empire Strikes Back, I wonder?

 

[Urabrask Revealed]

Alright, well, thanks for clarifying.

'No Star Wars Holiday Special'. Frankly, I'm amazed that the franchise bounced back as much as it did after airing that train wreck. What made audiences forget about it in time for the premiere of Empire Strikes Back, I wonder?

No real internet, plus the publishers tried to bury it as fast as possible.

 

[Zyobot]

No real internet, plus the publishers tried to bury it as fast as possible.

I suppose that having no Internet to immortalize it would make people forget much faster, yes.

It’s anecdotal, but I also wonder if having a more limited audience than the official movies did might’ve helped here? My dad, for instance, wasn’t aware of the Holiday Special until I introduced it to him pretty recently (meaning he had never watched it and therefore, never had his impression of Star Wars colored by its sheer cringe-worthiness).

 

[Zyobot]

'Uninterrupted Space Race'.

True, we've certainly seen a tide of revived enthusiasm that private space companies have ridden on over the last decade or so, but what I'm referring to is the Americans and the Soviets continuing to compete over space well past 1975.

Depending on how ATL unfolds, the US government might outsource space exploration to private companies anyway, since sustained competition would mean it'll want to have its cake and eat it, too (despite no longer wanting to spend as much on NASA, for whatever reason). Or at least, encourage the emergence of a private space-exploration industry whose activities NASA is heavily involved in (e.g. partnerships with any Blue Origin or SpaceX analogues that pop up here). Different paths that could've been taken to reach the stars will be of significant interest to any space-faring AH communities that emerge in the future, I imagine.

 

[Zyobot]

'How Would OTL WW2 Seem To A TL Where Only WW1 Happened?'.

If it were presented as some random AH work, they'd probably find it ASB. But if they literally had a window into OTL history, such as a portal to our 1940s or the ability to magically view YouTube commentary, odds are they'd be an unsavory mix of frightened and appalled to find that humanity hasn't learned its lesson the first time.

 

[Zyobot]

'Somewhat More Inflected English Language'.

By which, I mean make it about as inflected as OTL German or Spanish (i.e. inflected articles, more verb conjugations, retaining grammatical gender, and so on). OTL English already has limited inflection as is, but much less than the majority of Indo-European languages, to my knowledge.

 

[Buba]

'Somewhat More Inflected English Language'.

No Norman Conquest and influence of French.

 

[Zyobot]

No Norman Conquest and influence of French.

Would that go hand-in-hand with my previous 'More Germanic English' PoD, then? If that's the case, then butterflying the Norman Conquest (and subsequent seeping-in of French loanwords) would probably kill two birds with one stone, though how permanent the retained Germanic vocabulary of English would remain, I don't know. Especially if Britain still becomes a global colonial empire down the line, habitual word-borrowing and all.

 

[Buba]

Would that go hand-in-hand with my previous 'More Germanic English' PoD, then?

Yes, this is this layman's belief

More vorts vil be like in Deutsch or Nederlands.

 

[ATP]

Yes, this is this layman's belief

More vorts vil be like in Deutsch or Nederlands.

England would keep their interest on Scandinavian countries - possible taking over Iceland,and maybe Vinland colony.Which would not expanse swiftly - no golden cities and stupid Aztecs there.

 

[stevep]

An idea that occurred to me this morning. Before things totally collapsed in the western Roman empire could a strong ruler produce something like the Theme system that Byzantium developed in the early dark ages? It would basically mean introducing a degree of feudalism possibly but local, motivated forces to support a smaller field army and reduced levels of taxation could be a big boon in motivating much of the rural majority population to support the continuation of the empire rather than being at best ambient over its continued survival if not having an interest in its fall?

 

[Urabrask Revealed]

An idea that occurred to me this morning. Before things totally collapsed in the western Roman empire could a strong ruler produce something like the Theme system that Byzantium developed in the early dark ages? It would basically mean introducing a degree of feudalism possibly but local, motivated forces to support a smaller field army and reduced levels of taxation could be a big boon in motivating much of the rural majority population to support the continuation of the empire rather than being at best ambient over its continued survival if not having an interest in its fall?

Hmm, a less forward-thinking fellow might come to the conclusion that "Empire falls = No taxes whatsoever".

 

[stevep]

Hmm, a less forward-thinking fellow might come to the conclusion that "Empire falls = No taxes whatsoever".

But very little order either, which is what the more long-sighted is likely to consider. As well as the simply conservative or lazy.

Not saying it would work, but might offer a way around the impasse of a bloated autocratic regime that can't muster the support to maintain itself.

 

[Buba]

An idea that occurred to me this morning. Before things totally collapsed in the western Roman empire could a strong ruler produce something like the Theme system that Byzantium developed in the early dark ages? It would basically mean introducing a degree of feudalism possibly but local, motivated forces to support a smaller field army

Such local forces might had prevented the fall of Rome to begin with.
Look at the barbarians - e.g. the Gothic tribes each numbered c. 100-150K. That's everybody - Senior Citizens and co-eds included, the military forces were 20-30K. Yet they ran amok among populations numbering millions. Taking cities larger than the entire tribe. Why did the local police not stop them? Was it defunded?
Imagine a "knigget" and a bunch of thugs men-at-arms inside a keep inside every third village or so.

 

[Atarlost]

Hmm, a less forward-thinking fellow might come to the conclusion that "Empire falls = No taxes whatsoever".

This changes nothing. According to the linked article the theme system starts with making civil authority in threatened regions subordinate to military authority, which is exactly what happens anyways after a legion hails its general as Caesar and kicks off yet another civil war or adds another side to an existing one. The person who under the theme system would make the decision to rebel already had that power. The difference is that they might possibly settle for independence since they're already handling the tax money for their theme and can pay their soldiers without marching on Rome.

The unthreatened regions wouldn't be themes, though. Britain would probably become at least one theme as would whatever wasn't Byzantine east of the Alps and eastern Gaul. Maybe parts of North Africa if the Berbers are more threatening than I think. Most of the Empire would remain under the old system until the Vikings started deep raids, which I think don't think they started until after the Empire fell OTL. This may lead to some of the people who decided to play civil war roulette from those regions not having the resources to believe they had a chance.

 

[stevep]

Such local forces might had prevented the fall of Rome to begin with.
Look at the barbarians - e.g. the Gothic tribes each numbered c. 100-150K. That's everybody - Senior Citizens and co-eds included, the military forces were 20-30K. Yet they ran amok among populations numbering millions. Taking cities larger than the entire tribe. Why did the local police not stop them? Was it defunded?
Imagine a "knigget" and a bunch of thugs men-at-arms inside a keep inside every third village or so.

That was what I was wondering. In part a fair amount of what I've read over the late empire was that the plight of the ordinary person was so dire that many had nothing to gain in defending the empire and in cases often welcomed the 'barbarians' because life under them tended to be better.

Of course the sort of people who would have weapons in a theme type system would be higher in status and wealth so a lot would depend on how they treated the people under them.

 

[stevep]

This changes nothing. According to the linked article the theme system starts with making civil authority in threatened regions subordinate to military authority, which is exactly what happens anyways after a legion hails its general as Caesar and kicks off yet another civil war or adds another side to an existing one. The person who under the theme system would make the decision to rebel already had that power. The difference is that they might possibly settle for independence since they're already handling the tax money for their theme and can pay their soldiers without marching on Rome.

The unthreatened regions wouldn't be themes, though. Britain would probably become at least one theme as would whatever wasn't Byzantine east of the Alps and eastern Gaul. Maybe parts of North Africa if the Berbers are more threatening than I think. Most of the Empire would remain under the old system until the Vikings started deep raids, which I think don't think they started until after the Empire fell OTL. This may lead to some of the people who decided to play civil war roulette from those regions not having the resources to believe they had a chance.

Except that, to the best of my knowledge anyway most leading figures in themes didn't rebel. In a late empire - especially in the west - they might be less likely to anyway because their already exposed to attacks from outside the empire so they would benefit from being inside it by being able to call upon support from the imperial forces.

Yes the Vikings didn't start their raids until well after the theme structure was in place. IIRC it was ~790AD that the 1st reported attacks occurred in England and think slightly later elsewhere in western Europe.

 

[Atarlost]

Except that, to the best of my knowledge anyway most leading figures in themes didn't rebel. In a late empire - especially in the west - they might be less likely to anyway because their already exposed to attacks from outside the empire so they would benefit from being inside it by being able to call upon support from the imperial forces.

But a lot of Western Roman generals did rebel, or perhaps it's not called rebellion for the ones that succeeded in getting the Senate to acknowledge them as Imperator even if they often didn't live long after that. And they're the same people who would be leading the themes if the Western Empire used them.

 

[ATP]

But a lot of Western Roman generals did rebel, or perhaps it's not called rebellion for the ones that succeeded in getting the Senate to acknowledge them as Imperator even if they often didn't live long after that. And they're the same people who would be leading the themes if the Western Empire used them.

And one of reasons why Byzantines abadonned Theme system and used mercaneries.Not that it saved them.Ottomans come there as mercaneries....