Alternate History Ideas and Discussion

[stevep]

But a lot of Western Roman generals did rebel, or perhaps it's not called rebellion for the ones that succeeded in getting the Senate to acknowledge them as Imperator even if they often didn't live long after that. And they're the same people who would be leading the themes if the Western Empire used them.

This also occurred in the east during the period of the late [combined] empire. However those generals were basically military appointments who didn't directly associated with or have interests in the region they were stationed in.

As I understand it with the themes the key was that forces served locally and hence had knowledge of and an additional incentive to defend the region. The basic idea would be that they are locals used to defend their territory and are supported by the core regular forces coming from the capital regions when required. IF and I admit if is the key question you can build up such forces their less likely to rebel. Both because they have less interest in seeking to claim the imperial throne and because any attempt to do so would involve deserting their home base. Even if the general decided to make a bid for the purple the bulk of the force he commanded would have less interest in supporting such actions.

There were generals who gained considerable power and in some cases established dynasties in Byzantium but I was under the impress they largely used imperial rather than themic forces for such moves to seize power. Could be wrong here so would be glad to find out more.

 

[Bear Ribs]

So had a thought concerning alternate resources vs. history: presume that coal does not exist in useful quantities on Earth. Charcoal has to be produced laboriously by felling trees and carefully heating them, rather than digging coal from the ground. Charcoal also burns at a significantly lower temperature making it weaker for industrial purposes, and requires much larger amounts of coal for the same amount of work. Steel should still exist given most steel was made with charcoal until the 1800s.

How would this affect the age of steam? How long would sail remain competitive with steam vessels if fuel for steam engines, and steel to make them, was both much bulkier and much more expensive?

As a bonus round, suppose crude oil also does not exist in useful quantities. Internal combustion engines must be fueled by either distillation of alcohol or extraction of naturally existing plant/animal oils like hemp or whale oil. How long does steam continue to compete with internal combustion? Can sail ships manage to last even into the modern era with fuel being so scarce?

 

[Bassoe]

So had a thought concerning alternate resources vs. history: presume that coal does not exist in useful quantities on Earth. Charcoal has to be produced laboriously by felling trees and carefully heating them, rather than digging coal from the ground. Charcoal also burns at a significantly lower temperature making it weaker for industrial purposes, and requires much larger amounts of coal for the same amount of work. Steel should still exist given most steel was made with charcoal until the 1800s.

How would this affect the age of steam? How long would sail remain competitive with steam vessels if fuel for steam engines, and steel to make them, was both much bulkier and much more expensive?

As a bonus round, suppose crude oil also does not exist in useful quantities. Internal combustion engines must be fueled by either distillation of alcohol or extraction of naturally existing plant/animal oils like hemp or whale oil. How long does steam continue to compete with internal combustion? Can sail ships manage to last even into the modern era with fuel being so scarce?

Zor had some ideas over on spacebattles.

When I heard the term, what came to mind was a world in which there was basically no fossil fuels. Maybe they had been mined out by some long gone civilization, maybe they were so rare as to not be an important matter in the nature of the nation. As such, as this society rose it's development hit a considerable barrier in regards to power. Even so, they're scholars and engineers eventually found another source of power to drive their machinery: The Sun.


Huge banks of solar collectors were assembled. Mirrors directed sunlight to focal points to boil water and smelt iron. Electric motors and batteries were pushed forward while the internal combustion engine remained an academic curiosity. The centers of Industry were not places like England, but deserts like The Outback. Perth Australia is the largest city on Earth and the heart of the British Empire, sustained by vast swaths of collector banks that are domains of the Great Solar Dukes. Each of which Lords Over thousands of square kilometers of land scattered by subterranean towns in which an underclass of workers technicians and engineers dwell, kept in debt by company town structures. They rarely see the sun as they work by night to keep cool and not to cast shadows onto mirrors and cost their employers valuable watts of energy, cleaning and repairing the edifices which keep the world going. In Africa, the French are driving into the Saharah to power their own Solar Empire while in the Far East, Japan has taken over China and is using the Takhamakan Desert to power the Empire of the Rising Sun.

Zor

 

[The Whispering Monk]

Hydrogen extraction from water for fuel. Probably heavily researched and industrialized for use in personal vehicles and overland transport.

Emphasis on damming river flow for hydro-elecric.

Not so much emphasis on large scale windfarms so much as much smaller wind turbines for residential use.

Battery development would be a must.

Geo thermal taps wherever we can find them.

Eventually, we'd become HUGE nuclear energy users. It's so much more efficient and CONSISTENT than anything previous.

 

[Bear Ribs]

I was thinking more specifically on ship development, for story-writing reasons, than how it would affect things hundreds of years later in a potential industrial age, but that's still interesting.

 

[Buba]

IMO sail continues to be used until nuclear powered ships take over.
Steam/ICE/electric from batteries might be used for manouvering in port.
Remember - steel hulled sailing ships were on the Guano Run until the 1930s.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

Ship focus:

Hydrogen option: Depending on how research goes and how efficient the hydrogen extraction process gets and when it develops, that could become the main propulsive system for ships. When/if that happens, if it's before nuclear development, sail definitely goes away. Hell, maybe Einstein (or other mad scientist) develops a weird chemical reaction that forces the hydrogen and oxygen atoms to separate! Then all you need is reaction mass to get what you need from all that water around you.

Physical: Exceptional gearing systems allow peddlers to turn your screw?? I mean...it's not great for long voyages, but if your gearing is awesome and reliable then you could have a series of rowers move you along. Seamen will have the biggest legs around!! Mostly useful as combination with sails.

 

[Doomsought]

Hydrogen extraction from water for fuel. Probably heavily researched and industrialized for use in personal vehicles and overland transport.

No.

Hydrogen is awful, truly awful to store. It corrodes structural metals, it leaks through nearly every material known to man, and it has so low density that even high pressure and cryogenics the storage tank is larger than the usable volume of your vehicle.

Even in spacecraft, where there hydrogen is theoretically the most efficient fuel possible, many space ship designs choose other fuels because hydrogen is just that much of a bitch to work with.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

No.

Hydrogen is awful, truly awful to store. It corrodes structural metals, it leaks through nearly every material known to man, and it has so low density that even high pressure and cryogenics the storage tank is larger than the usable volume of your vehicle.

Even in spacecraft, where there hydrogen is theoretically the most efficient fuel possible, many space ship designs choose other fuels because hydrogen is just that much of a bitch to work with.

All fair points. Hmm...would it be worthwhile for an ocean/river vessel if they are able to extract whatever they need for immediate use? Go straight from separating the hydrogen and oxygen to burning them as need without the need for storage?

 

[Bear Ribs]

Yeah, Hydrogen's a nightmare, and hydrogen embrittlement means you basically can't have any steel around it which... no steel is not an ideal situation. If it were used on ships, I imagine the first, best choice for using it would be to extract it from seawater and then immediately burn it so that you can avoid the irritations of storing it any length of time.

 

[Buba]

What if Lloyd-George sailed - as was planned - with Kitchener to Russia and died with him?
Who replaces Asquith? How does it change ToV?
Top of mind - the Polish II Republic is probably better off with him feeding the fishes ...

 

[Doomsought]

All fair points. Hmm...would it be worthwhile for an ocean/river vessel if they are able to extract whatever they need for immediate use? Go straight from separating the hydrogen and oxygen to burning them as need without the need for storage?

No.

For river vessels, you are better off using wood burning steam engines or further improving sails than hydrogen.

You are better off using compressed air than hydrogen. You can produce compressed air very efficiently using a tromp. Compressed air is not a good energy source for travel, but it is still better than hydrogen. If there is no coal, tromps and compressed air would be much more common as energy sources.

 

[Captain X]

Probably the biggest hit to the lack of readily available coal would be the production of steel, which is stronger per weight than iron, which would change how both buildings and ships were built, not to mention firearms.


Something I've recently been wondering about is what if the US had realized from the start of WWII that it really wouldn't be a good idea to help the Soviets, even if it did hurt the Nazis, and so didn't extend Lend-Lease to them? Would it have made beating the Nazis that much harder? Would it maybe prevent the Cold War from happening?

 

[Doomsought]

Probably the biggest hit to the lack of readily available coal would be the production of steel, which is stronger per weight than iron, which would change how both buildings and ships were built, not to mention firearms.

Most early steel was made using charcoal anyways. Even rock coal needs processed to make pure coke for steel making. Sulfur does bad things to steel.

 

[Captain X]

I'm thinking more in terms of scale. And the quality of steel would be important, too, which is where higher temperatures come in.

 

[Bassoe]

Lots of mutual hydraulic empires. Solar monopolizer communities in deserts would be the only source of high-grade steel, but they'd have minimal agriculture on account of being in deserts and the fact that every portion of land used for growing crops isn't being covered in focusing mirrors, so they'd have to import all their food and raw materials from surrounding farming monopolizer communities in trade for steel tools and weapons.

Any farming monopolizer community without trade with a solar monopolizer community for steel tools and weapons would be industrially and militarily outcompeted by rival farming monopolizer communities who did trade and did have those things, likewise, a solar monopolizer community without trade with a farming monopolizer community would have extreme limits on its population because no food and be industrially and militarily outcompeted by rival solar monopolizer communities who did trade and consequentially had a population density way above what they could've sustained with their lands alone.

Also lots of archimedean death rays.

 

[Doomsought]

You can't run a society on a single energy source, it is just too fragile to survive in even the medium term.

 

[Husky_Khan]

1. Capture animal farts, burps and manure gas in sacks.

2. ???

3. Power Everything with Methane




I didn't learn science much...

 

[Buba]

1. Capture animal farts, burps and manure gas in sacks.
2. ???
3. Power Everything with Methane

Skip #1 and simply feed your crews with beans ...

 

[Bear Ribs]

1. Capture animal farts, burps and manure gas in sacks.

2. ???

3. Power Everything with Methane




I didn't learn science much...

Easier to build an anaerobic digester than try to fit cattle with catheters.

How to Build a Simple and Affordable Methane Digester | Ready Nutrition

It's scalable, leaves no waste, creates fuel, and re-fertilizes the soil. If you're looking for self sufficiency, I can't think of anything that would be more helpful.

readynutrition.com