Alternate History Ideas and Discussion

[Atarlost]

Industrialization starts in places with access to coal. Without coal you do have water power, but geared water power at the scale a factory can afford doesn't produce the high speed and torque for things like metal cutting lathes.

Industrialization produced a change in attitude towards science. You might eventually get to oil without this, but if oil is also vastly rarer you don't bridge all the way to nuclear. You don't get the technology to run closed cycle nuclear coolant loops and heat exchangers without prior experience with oil and coal. You never get to solar because without coal operated machinery you can't make the large, flat mirrors.

Big Hydro requires electrification which requires lots of wire which is extruded using machines powered by coal. It also uses turbines made with machinery powered by coal and invented for better harnessing steam power from coal.

Methane and hyrdogen and compressed air are storage solutions, but coal and oil are energy sources. Storage solutions are useless without energy sources.

Technological advance is an inherently iterative process. One does not simply take sand from the beach and produce a Dataprobe. We use crude tools to fashion better tools, and then our better tools to fashion more precise tools, and so on. Each minor refinement is a step in the process, and all of the steps must be taken.

 

[Bassoe]

 

[Buba]

Please have mercy on the Senior Citizens here - what is the tiny print about?

 

[Bassoe]

Please have mercy on the Senior Citizens here - what is the tiny print about?

"Your Holiness, there is disturbing news from Romania.

It is said the Prince of Wallachia, who has been our staunch defender against the Turks and Saracens, has made a pact with the devil! Night and darkness has covered the land from the Black Sea to the Mediterranean. An unholy, massive castle has grown like a tumor across the mountain ranges, and legions of skeletons, demons, and monstrosities pour forth.

The Prince has claimed "in service of God, I sell myself to the Devil" and has proclaimed to defend Christendom from the Turks "till the end of days". The Turks have already fed great armies, only for them to be returned upon stakes and spikes, but he has not made any advances upon his Christian neighbors.

There is great fear and trembling among the lords of Europe your holiness, and many call for his excommunication and ponder a crusade, what should be our papal response?"

 

[Buba]

Thank you, @Bassoe

As a nerd I protestetch against the use of "Romania", though. Not invented yet in the manner as it used contemporarily.
At that time it would had meant ... Bulgaria.

 

[PsihoKekec]

Please have mercy on the Senior Citizens here - what is the tiny print about?

You can click on the image and magnify. It's basically Powerwolf approved alternate history scenario.

 

[Buba]

You can click on the image and magnify. It's basically Powerwolf approved alternate history scenario.

I clicked but it did not increase much.
Magnify ... Senior Citizens = not so computer savvy.
Powerwolf - like that cutesy Romanian music band?

 

[Doomsought]

Communion Wine is the blood of Christ, what happens when a vampire drinks it.?

 

[PsihoKekec]

Spontaneous combustion

 

[Buba]

Communion Wine is the blood of Chris

Details of what it is - or what it becomes - depend upon your brand of Christianity ...

what happens when a vampire drinks it.?

Hmm - maybe Lutheran Vampires react differently than Catholic and Orthodox vampires? With those of the Anglican Communion taking a middle path?

Abstinence practicing vampires in Twelve Step programmes get "the shakes" and as a result are known as Quakers?

 

[TheRomanSlayer]

Here's something that I want to ask: was it possible that the end of the Kalmar Union would have been more brutal with Denmark, Sweden, and Norway going off on separate paths?

1) Denmark would become more integrated into the Holy Roman Empire as another Crown land on par with Hungary. The loss of Norway might be a hard pill for them to swallow.

2) Sweden would form a closer alliance with Poland-Lithuania, acting as another wall against potential Russian expansion westwards.

3) Norway would regain its independence, and attempt to recreate the North Sea Empire, only Scotland and England would be its target, minus Denmark.

 

[Buba]

1) Denmark would become more integrated into the Holy Roman Empire as another Crown land on par with Hungary.

I suspect you are thinking off Czechia, not Hungary.
But yes, inclusion into the HRE might had happened, although IMO at an earlier date.
Would Charles V try to integrate Denmark into the HRE? Maybe ... some crazy Habsburg marriages would help
E.g. Mary, his sister, after the cretin commits suicide by Turk she is forced to re-marry, Brother Dearest dumping some Danish dude on her.

2) Sweden would form a closer alliance with Poland-Lithuania, acting as another wall against potential Russian expansion westwards.

PLC, Russian expansion - that is centuries into the future and might never happen.
E.g. in 1528 Queen Bona does not miscarry and little Albrecht lives, thus come 1548 Poland and Lithuania go their separate ways (again), and then Albrecht has half a dozen sons, hence PLC never happens.
But there would be some sort of interaction with Muscovy indeed.

3) Norway would regain its independence, and attempt to recreate the North Sea Empire, only Scotland and England would be its target, minus Denmark.

Too weak for any expansion. IMO. It would end up a semi-colony of the Dutch Republic (if that happens) just like it had been of Hansa.

 

[TheRomanSlayer]

IOTL, there was a Hapsburg family member who married Christian II of Denmark, so have that marriage stick.

How would Queen Bona surviving allow Poland and Lithuania to part ways once again? She had one son with Sigismund the Old in Sigismund II August, although butterflying the Muscovite-Lithuanian Wars with Ivan III ceding the lands back to Lithuania in exchange for a marriage between the Lithuanian branch of the Jagiellons and the Rurikids would do (IOTL, it was Helena of Moscow who married Alexander Jagiellon, but in this case we could also have that OTL marriage, plus Vasily III and either Barbara Jagiellon, or Elizabeth Jagiellon. (IOTL, Barbara Jagiellon married Duke George of Saxony and Elizabeth Jagiellon married Frederick II of Legnica).

The statement regarding Norway would have been true, if the Dutch still declare their independence. Or if the Burgundian Inheritance went to the Austrian Hapsburgs instead of the Spanish Hapsburgs, there would be no Netherlands. However, Norway would still be a semi-colony, albeit an English semi-colony.

 

[stevep]

You can click on the image and magnify. It's basically Powerwolf approved alternate history scenario.

I did that thanks and bloody hilarious, at least as a fantasy story.

 

[Buba]

How would Queen Bona surviving allow Poland and Lithuania to part ways once again? She had one son with Sigismund the Old in Sigismund II August

In 1528 Bona Sforza miscarried a son (who was to be named Albrecht) and could not have more children when a bear spooked her horse.
With two Jagiellons available - Sigismund Augustus and Albrecht - it is possible that a faction of Lithuanian magnates would push for a separate Grand Duke. Repeating what happened after Casimir's death - Poland electing John Albrecht while Lithuania got Alexander.
Then, if the alt-Albrecht (b.1528) has more than one son, then - if Sigismund Augusts does not produce (male) issue is like in OTL - one inherits Lithuania and the other is elected king of Poland. No Union of Lublin and no PLC. Which IMO is a Good Thing for both countries.
Plausibility is low, I admit, but less likely things had happened in OTL ...

if the Burgundian Inheritance went to the Austrian Hapsburgs instead of the Spanish Hapsburgs,

You mean Charles V passing on Netherlands to Ferdinand and not Phillip?

 

[TheRomanSlayer]

In 1528 Bona Sforza miscarried a son (who was to be named Albrecht) and could not have more children when a bear spooked her horse.
With two Jagiellons available - Sigismund Augustus and Albrecht - it is possible that a faction of Lithuanian magnates would push for a separate Grand Duke. Repeating what happened after Casimir's death - Poland electing John Albrecht while Lithuania got Alexander.
Then, if the alt-Albrecht (b.1528) has more than one son, then - if Sigismund Augusts does not produce (male) issue is like in OTL - one inherits Lithuania and the other is elected king of Poland. No Union of Lublin and no PLC. Which IMO is a Good Thing for both countries.
Plausibility is low, I admit, but less likely things had happened in OTL ...

This might be more realistic, although how is a lack of Union of Lublin and no PLC good for both Poland and Lithuania? Both nations when under a single union had become a major player in their own right. Poland gets the Lithuanian shield against potential Muscovite (later Russian) expansion, and Lithuania had the bonus of Polish protection against the Teutonic Knights.

You mean Charles V passing on Netherlands to Ferdinand and not Phillip?

Yes. Philip would probably get whatever it is that Ferdinand got IOTL.

 

[Buba]

how is a lack of Union of Lublin and no PLC good for both Poland and Lithuania?

Both countries focus on what really matters to them.
Lithuania has its two "triangles" to deal with - Muscovy-Sweden-Lithuania in the north, and Muscovy-Crimea-Lithuania in the south.
Poland may focus on other things, such as Prussia, Pomerania, Silesia ...

 

[TheRomanSlayer]

Both countries focus on what really matters to them.
Lithuania has its two "triangles" to deal with - Muscovy-Sweden-Lithuania in the north, and Muscovy-Crimea-Lithuania in the south.
Poland may focus on other things, such as Prussia, Pomerania, Silesia ...

True. Would Lithuania be a bit weaker in its dealings with Sweden and Muscovy?

 

[Buba]

True. Would Lithuania be a bit weaker in its dealings with Sweden and Muscovy?

It would, but ...
Not having Big Brother to call upon it would IMO act smarter. Simply be more efficient in what it is doing.
BTW - it is possible that Lithuania under a different duke goes Prot. It ends up with a curious Calvinist-Orthodox-Catholic mix.
Of course, developing slightly different institutions and modes of operation would had made the PLC stronger than in OTL. But we know that it did not.

 

[ATP]

It would, but ...
Not having Big Brother to call upon it would IMO act smarter. Simply be more efficient in what it is doing.
BTW - it is possible that Lithuania under a different duke goes Prot. It ends up with a curious Calvinist-Orthodox-Catholic mix.
Of course, developing slightly different institutions and modes of operation would had made the PLC stronger than in OTL. But we know that it did not.

All true.Unfortunatelly - since Winged horseman was turned into heavy calvary by Stephan Batory when he becomed polish king,you just butterflied them.But,without our wonder weapons,we must be smarter.Good in long turn.
P.S if Lithuania fall,we still need to deal with Moscov - becouse they considered as theirs all what once belonged to some russian prince.