Babylon 5 A Fighting Chance --- A Babylon 5 AU

[mwkillkenny84]

The Protectorates will be a Wild Card, while they have been nanny'd a lot one particular member world was said to be extremely militant and warlike. They are also a fairly unknown quantity to everyone, even the Centauri know little of them, so I wouldn't be expecting an easy fight.

And how high is the chance that the Protectorates will ask why the Minbari are in a war with someone that is not the Shadows and is advanced enough to put them in a position where they have to call their forces...

... and replying "Sod off, we will not offer our blood to feed the ego of the Warrior Caste after they got their asses kicked in a genocidal war you started over a misunderstanding. Bloody idiotic habit of approaching other ships with gunports open..."

 

[Harlock]

Not impossible

 

[The Whispering Monk]

Not sure where you're taking your tale, but I'm sure it'll be interesting to see unfold.

I really just have one question, are you planning on returning to the main timeline (Sinclair = Valen), or are you just going to toss some Vorlon explosive on it and call it a day?!

 

[BF110C4]

I wonder if any of the Protectorate races are going to use their participation in the war to get a voice and vote regarding the governance of their corner of space. I can't imagine all of the concerned planets being happy with the Mimbari keeping them hidden in a corner and keeping their development so limited that they haven't recovered from the devastation of the war agains the Shadows so long ago.

 

[Harlock]

The idea behind this is to set up an alternate future timeline for the series, so while some things may align a lot of it won't

 

[mwkillkenny84]

I wonder if any of the Protectorate races are going to use their participation in the war to get a voice and vote regarding the governance of their corner of space. I can't imagine all of the concerned planets being happy with the Mimbari keeping them hidden in a corner and keeping their development so limited that they haven't recovered from the devastation of the war agains the Shadows so long ago.

Those very same factors could also have the Protectorates answer "No." when the Minbari came and ask "Help us!".

See my above post for why they could perfectly refuse to intervene in this war.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

Those very same factors could also have the Protectorates answer "No." when the Minbari came and ask "Help us!".

See my above post for why they could perfectly refuse to intervene in this war.

I'm pretty sure the Protectorate planets will agree to step up without any real reserve. I'm pretty sure that's all ready been stated as what's happening.

I definitely see them taking on a much larger role in their self determination from this point forward though.

 

[Chris O'Farrell]

Of course, consider that the Protectorates probably get all their information filtered through the Minbari so they honestly don't know much if anything about humanity except what the Minbari tell them. Which is probably a double serving of 'barbarians at the gates!' served with a glass of 'Totally harbingers of the Shadows coming back!'

That might not last long of course.

On a side note @Harlock ; I'm going to guess that in this timeline, the Drakh did not give the Dilgar the Shadow Planet Killer missile technology? Too many things make it clear they didn't, but just want to check

Going forward, My guess is that we'll see Earth take a few Minbari border worlds, with very stiff resistance from the Warrior Cast despite EA sending down their elite with power armor. Although I'm guessing the first victory will be pretty swift because the Minbari fight stupid (aka the Windswords) and the second will be a Stalingradesque bloody nightmare (aka the Starriders). But even so, a number of undercover Rangers carefully positioned throughout the worker and religious population ordered to watch and report back to Delen and sane members of the council sending reports that the EA troops are acting professional and even kindly towards the Minbari (starkly contrasting with the Minbaris stated goal to exterminate humanity hopefully shaming the Religious and Worker casts enough that they have the votes to force negotiations) which lets talks commence as something of a stalemate draws up.

Well that and Starkiller behind their lines gleefully striking at every weak point he can find, causing massive headaches to the Worker cast as they try to switch to a full scale war mobilization. Driving Branmer nuts as he has to divert his thinly stretched forces to try and cover his logistics as well as threatening to derail his plans to build up for the Shadow War because protecting rear areas is just not something the Minbari have had to think about for centuries.

The Minbari should consider themselves lucky that they never got to the point of exterminating civilians en-mass and Shikari got blocked from his attempt by Earths allies. If they had been able to wash humans off a world with antimatter, or even if they had managed to get any surface strikes in from Earth?

Well, as was said earlier in the fic, Deathwalker is fully aware that B13 or EIA scooped up a whole load of Deathwalkers research from Balos, including several of her finest bioweapons....

 

[Harlock]

Yeah, no Shadow munitions from the Drakh

They have been assisting with tech for the Dilgar Navy notably the newest Dreadnoughts have a single watered down slicer beam. Same blue weapons the Drakh fleet and the Omega X was tooled up with.

The Dilgar want more of course but they also know the Drakh aren't in this to help them. Thanks to Jha'dur's research they know exactly who and what the Drakh are. But they are still rather useful.

 

[OldGeezer]

... and replying "Sod off, we will not offer our blood to feed the ego of the Warrior Caste after they got their asses kicked in a genocidal war you started over a misunderstanding. Bloody idiotic habit of approaching other ships with gunports open..."

Many things can be laid at the feet of the Minbari, but this one, I think, not so much. It's a perfectly fine habbit, just different from everyone else's, but then, the Minbari don't get out much so they don't all know that.

IN THE BEGINNING 33:50
MINBARI: "They've tried to contact us but we do not understand their language. As is our custom we are approaching with gun ports open."
DUKHAT: "By whose order?"

XO PROMETHEUS: "Sir the alien ships have opened gun ports."
JANKOWSKI: "Are they prepared to fire?"
XO PROMETHEUS: "I don't know I can't tell."
JANKOWSKI: "Come on talk to me are they locked on us?"
XO PROMETHEUS: "Scanners are too powerful. I couldn't tell even they were."
XO PROMETHEUS: "They have opened all gun ports."

MINBARI #2: "Master, that is the tradition of the warrior caste. A gesture of strength and respect. They can see our weapons, they can see we approach them open handed."

We hear in the movie why they do this thing: it is so that the other side can see their weapons. And upon hearing that the Minbari gunports are open Jankowski of all people immediately grasps that he can ask after the status of their weapons, now that they can see them. Exactly how the tradition is supposed to work!

Well, if they could actually see them. Which they couldn't because ...

IN THE BEGINNING 32:25
MINBARI: "The sensors have detected an echo which seems to be following our course. They may be alien ships on approach. I told them to go to maximum power on the scanners so we can verify. There is no reason to concern Dukhat with it until we know more."

... someone tried sneaking up on them, so the Minbari turned up the gain on their scanner in response.

 

[mwkillkenny84]

Many things can be laid at the feet of the Minbari, but this one, I think, not so much. It's a perfectly fine habbit, just different from everyone else's, but then, the Minbari don't get out much so they don't all know that.

We hear in the movie why they do this thing: it is so that the other side can see their weapons. And upon hearing that the Minbari gunports are open Jankowski of all people immediately grasps that he can ask after the status of their weapons, now that they can see them. Exactly how the tradition is supposed to work!

Well, if they could actually see them. Which they couldn't because ...

... someone tried sneaking up on them, so the Minbari turned up the gain on their scanner in response.

But if the Warrior Caste had not that habit, and used it in a first contact situation, perhaps the disaster that was the beginning of the EA/Mibari War could have been avoided!!!

 

[OldGeezer]

But if the Warrior Caste had not that habit, and used it in a first contact situation, perhaps the disaster that was the beginning of the EA/Mibari War could have been avoided!!!

If, if, if ...
If Lefcourt had actually done his job and refused to put someone unsuited in command
If Jankowski had followed his orders
If he hadn't decided to sneak up on the Minbari but tried talking instead once he ditched them

Plenty of blame to go around. In that company, a Minbari Warrior Caste ship following Warrior Caste customs in (or very near) Minbari space is small potatoes. Expecting them to ditch their customs on the spot because they see someone closing in on their scanners is a bit much to expect.

 

[Gyre]

The bottom line is that the Boneheads assumed their ways were understood by all. Only Dukhat understood the mistake, and tried to correct it.

 

[mwkillkenny84]

Plenty of blame to go around. In that company, a Minbari Warrior Caste ship following Warrior Caste customs in (or very near) Minbari space is small potatoes. Expecting them to ditch their customs on the spot because they see someone closing in on their scanners is a bit much to expect.

Repeat after me:

First.
Contact.
Situation.


Expecting someone that you know zero of their uses and customs (and that know squat of your uses and customs) to respond to a 'traditional Minbari Warrior Caste greeting' like they know its significance (when the last time Minbari had contacts with someone was when the Centauri had an embassy in their territory. Centuries before) is the height of folly.

The bottom line is that the Boneheads assumed their ways were understood by all. Only Dukhat understood the mistake, and tried to correct it.

Sadly he did not manage to correct the mistake before Jankowski opened fire (credit is due, the idiot tried to retreat/escape when he realized that the ships he had in front where waaay over his' weight class.
Sadly, the Minbari's sensors were so powerful that the hyperspace generators were out-of-use up).

 

[OldGeezer]

The bottom line is that the Boneheads assumed their ways were understood by all. Only Dukhat understood the mistake, and tried to correct it.

The sad part is, that the Minbari warriors were quite correct in this assumption. When he heard the gunports were open, Jankowski immediately grasped that he could now see whether or not their weapons were ready. Except for him, you know, also making them turn the scanner power knob all the way to the right before that.

So the tradition was actually understood by Jankowski and worked as intended, and is not a stupid idea at all.

Dukhat probably knew that the other races preferred to keep the ports closed, but that does not make the Warrior custom silly. Just unusual.

 

[BF110C4]

Frankly the problem is less about a practice in particular and more about a combination of three different ones. They had a First Contact Situation with a race they had basic communication protocols thanks to the Centauri (even if they were centuries old), they had a suspicious contact and then they had an old and noble honor salute. All those by themselves are not completely silly by themselves but combine them and you got a problem, even if no one could have forseen the magintude of it.

What the Mimbari should have done when a potential threat made them go out of the First Contact script was to either suspend the FC, traditions included, communicate the humans of the reason even if they had to do so in centauri and then gain distance or even leave the area. If the threat wasn't so big then they shouldn't have turn the electronic warfare suit to military power, which is most cases is considered a rude action at best and a prelude to opening fire at worst (during the Cold War captains of soviet submarines sometimes grew tired of the US Navy shadowing them and went active with their sonar, usually the americans broke contact and occasionally throw countermeasures since even a single ping was enough for a torpedo firing solution).

Ultimately the primary mistake was the lack of clear instructions in the FC protocol about how to deal with emergencies and the proper way of breaking contact in case the other side, or in this case a third party, became agressive for some reason. The captain of the Mimbari warship should have never tried to follow protocol, deal with a potential incident and try some traditional greetings at the same time, regardless of the importance of the occasion.

 

[Silverbullet]

We’re getting off topic. The actions of the First Contact incident have long passed in story and canon. Do we have any information on the Protectorate Races and what they bring to the table?

 

[Doomsought]

We’re getting off topic. The actions of the First Contact incident have long passed in story and canon. Do we have any information on the Protectorate Races and what they bring to the table?

I think there was some blurbs about them in one of the spin off games.

 

[Harlock]

I can put together a few bits of information for reference

Though I wouldn't expect to see much of them

 

[Culsu]

I assume they'll be a mixed bag, both with regards to capabilities and willingness. And that's going to open up another bag of fleas for the Minbari, regardless of how the war will end. Because those among the client races that carried their weight will most likely end up making demands to have that contribution be rewarded with a change of status and a desire to have a greater say in their affairs post-war. If this goes all-out, Minbar will be pretty much spent by the time it all ends. They have a large and well-developed nation, but they are incredibly slow, both culturally and industrially. Branmer knows this, which is why he's concentrating on ships that he knows the Minbari industry still can produce at a reasonable pace. But it's doubtful that, with their stealth negated, the Minbari can win in a war of attrition against an EA-LONAW-Narn-Dilgar front. So, no matter how this plays out, when the dust settles, one or more of those client races will go "Dear Council, we laid our homes bare, contributed 800 ships and lost six million of our people in your war. And now we get to have a say in what's happening next!"