Babylon 5 A Fighting Chance --- A Babylon 5 AU

[BF110C4]

I assume they'll be a mixed bag, both with regards to capabilities and willingness. And that's going to open up another bag of fleas for the Minbari, regardless of how the war will end. Because those among the client races that carried their weight will most likely end up making demands to have that contribution be rewarded with a change of status and a desire to have a greater say in their affairs post-war. If this goes all-out, Minbar will be pretty much spent by the time it all ends. They have a large and well-developed nation, but they are incredibly slow, both culturally and industrially. Branmer knows this, which is why he's concentrating on ships that he knows the Minbari industry still can produce at a reasonable pace. But it's doubtful that, with their stealth negated, the Minbari can win in a war of attrition against an EA-LONAW-Narn-Dilgar front. So, no matter how this plays out, when the dust settles, one or more of those client races will go "Dear Council, we laid our homes bare, contributed 800 ships and lost six million of our people in your war. And now we get to have a say in what's happening next!"

And that's after a somewhat successful war, their reaction if the allies manage to reach one of their planets and neutralize it (killing its space capabilities, not bombarding the population) will be interesting by itself.

At which point they will stop following Brammer's global strategy and recall their naval units to defend their homeplanet? Will a Protectorate race will fight to the end or will they negociate a separate peace? After that happens, how many of the other Protectorate races will go neutral before it happens again on their own planets?

And of course, what will be the reaction of Sineval and other hardcore warriors to such treason?

 

[Gyre]

I think Branmer can turn the war into a grinding battle of attrition that sets the stage for if not peace, at least a cease fire. The question is does the council take advantage of this?

 

[BF110C4]

I think Branmer can turn the war into a grinding battle of attrition that sets the stage for if not peace, at least a cease fire. The question is does the council take advantage of this?

As far as he is concerned for Brammer this is already the ideal time to put an end to this war, with the Warrior Caste humbled and the Minbari society made aware of the need of large scale changes in their military thinking, just in time for their slow culture to do final preparations for the incoming Shadow Wars. Darwin by himself guarantees that the Minbari ships won't be leaded by Leeroy Jenkins wannabes and instead young captains trained for actual combat against equals are at the helm of the Sharlin's task forces.

Compared to that losing a few dozen planets from their vast territory and giving up any amount of valuable raw materials and tech is a cheap trade, especially with how pissed the humans are after the failed attack on Earth and the entry of the Dilgar to the war (no one wants to see what does the Deathwalker can bring to a planetary invasion after so many years of planning and experimenting).

 

[MrBirthday]

Mimbari

Isn't that supposed to be Minbari?

 

[Culsu]

It is.

 

[Harlock]

Details on the protectorates are fairly ambiguous so I'll likely make some stuff up myself. They use older ships and nothing bigger than older generation medium cruisers, but they make good patrol and fast attack groups.

They haven't used capital ships since Valen's war and would take time to train on them, if any where even available But they should be very useful in the future

 

[trekchu]

Details on the protectorates are fairly ambiguous so I'll likely make some stuff up myself. They use older ships and nothing bigger than older generation medium cruisers, but they make good patrol and fast attack groups.

They haven't used capital ships since Valen's war and would take time to train on them, if any where even available But they should be very useful in the future

How would the Minbari react to them saying no?

 

[TimeDiver]

How would the Minbari react to them saying no?

The question is academic, according to Branmer himself (assuming he isn't engaging in some... creative, information release to the Grey Council).

They've already fallen over themselves to volunteer for defending the (Minbari) Federation from further predation from outsiders...

...whether they're aware of how the war started in the first place, is another question (and one worth asking, although they'll get a biased answer).

 

[Harlock]

The Protectorates are very keen to help as it will probably mean they elevate their status and have a greater say in general affairs. Less Protectorate and more Dominion I suppose, another step toward autonomy.

My impression is they are grateful to the Minbari but are sick of being treated like helpless children, this is their chance to demonstrate their strengths and gain some freedoms. Branmer is I suspect very pleased, better competent allies for the next war than helpless worlds he'd have to split forces off to protect.

 

[Gyre]

Still, it all comes down to the Council, and if they've decided to use their extra brain cells. Can they see past wounded pride?

 

[mwkillkenny84]

Still, it all comes down to the Council, and if they've decided to use their extra brain cells. Can they see past wounded pride?

Worker Caste is sure (IIRC they were the one that on Dukhat's death voted for 'wait and decide later'), Religious Caste is a 50/50 chances of not being blinded by pride, and the Warrior Caste's representatives are not in charge, their egos are, so a big fat NO! from their direction.

 

[BF110C4]

Worker Caste is sure (IIRC they were the one that on Dukhat's death voted for 'wait and decide later'), Religious Caste is a 50/50 chances of not being blinded by pride, and the Warrior Caste's representatives are not in charge, their egos are, so a big fat NO! from their direction.

The balance should have changed at least a bit with the loss of prestige and supporters of the Warrior Caste, after losing hundreds of their more agressive captains and flag officers and with Brammer's defeats and limited victories being compared to Shakiri's continuous disasters their internal position must be somewhat shaky, especially since at this point they cannot longer try for overwhelming victories to gain them support within their own decimated caste.

But this is probably the tipping point, the Minbari know they lost the war but their egos won't let them accept it yet. If Brammer manages to start preliminary peace talks with humans and gets a reasonable deal that guarantees their independence as a race as well as some sort of revenge for Dukhat (like giving them Jankowski's body) he will be able to sell the Council an 'Honorable Peace' but if the situation keeps escalating to the point that the Council realizes that losing the war will mean the current Minbari culture will disappear just like it did with post-WWII Japan and Germany then their fear will ensure they fight until their planets are burned in orbital bombarments or become experimental grounds for Jha'dur's agressive terraforming.

 

[Harlock]

If memory serves two warriors voted for war and one voted wait because he wanted to do some recon first and figure out what was what. He might be easy to convince, Coplann is a Star Rider so will probably do what Branmer tells him, that leaves just Morann the Wind Sword guy. Branmer I reckon has a way to sort that out too

 

[Deleted member]

I think that the essential problem is that a growing strain in Minbari society would be to think this is the War of the Darkness, and they are losing. This is the return of the Shadow, and they have no coalition, no support, and their strength is already broken.

 

[BF110C4]

I think that the essential problem is that a growing strain in Minbari society would be to think this is the War of the Darkness, and they are losing. This is the return of the Shadow, and they have no coalition, no support, and their strength is already broken.

That kind of thinking leads to either despair, that the Warrior Caste must be feeling after losing most of their professional navy to a bunch of barbarians as soon as their Stealth was broken or rampant fanatism in the face of defeat which would mean that the Religious Caste might become the next headache. If that's so then Brammer will be lamenting that the only people with common sense are the Worker Caste, which incidentally are the only ones too busy working replacing the loses caused byt the warhawks of the other two castes to be brooding like human teens.

 

[Deleted member]

That kind of thinking leads to either despair, that the Warrior Caste must be feeling after losing most of their professional navy to a bunch of barbarians as soon as their Stealth was broken or rampant fanatism in the face of defeat which would mean that the Religious Caste might become the next headache. If that's so then Brammer will be lamenting that the only people with common sense are the Worker Caste, which incidentally are the only ones too busy working replacing the loses caused byt the warhawks of the other two castes to be brooding like human teens.

The Minbari yet have great reserves of moral strength in that regard, however. There's also the real risk that they might try to send an expedition to Orieni space to gain help. The Centauri crippled the Orieni by denying them Quantium-40 and destroying beacons and gates, they still have many planets with billions of people, and they probably still considerably powerful sublight fleets. It's clear that the humans destroying Dukhat followed by Jha'dur--whom the Warriors already suspected of being an Agent of Darkness quite literally fifteen years before!--engineering this spectacular deception and then surprise attack on their forces is nothing less than a conspiracy of the Shadow. I can't see how any rational Warrior or Religious Caste member, from inside their thought-patterns, would come to a different conclusion. It all seems like hindsight to do so.

 

[OldGeezer]

It's clear that the humans destroying Dukhat followed by Jha'dur--whom the Warriors already suspected of being an Agent of Darkness quite literally fifteen years before!--engineering this spectacular deception and then surprise attack on their forces is nothing less than a conspiracy of the Shadow. I can't see how any rational Warrior or Religious Caste member, from inside their thought-patterns, would come to a different conclusion.

The Vorlons haven't come out. If the Shadows were moving, the Vorlons would be at least visible.

OTL they came out and had at least an ambassador at Babylon 5, and even then some Minbari were unable to believe the Shadows were moving. It's hard to imagine two entire castes convincing themselves of Shadow Conspiracy when there aren't any Vorlons about or sightings of spiky black ships at all.

 

[BF110C4]

The Vorlons haven't come out. If the Shadows were moving, the Vorlons would be at least visible.

OTL they came out and had at least an ambassador at Babylon 5, and even then some Minbari were unable to believe the Shadows were moving. It's hard to imagine two entire castes convincing themselves of Shadow Conspiracy when there aren't any Vorlons about or sightings of spiky black ships at all.

The Council knows that this current problem is a localized conflict growing way out of proportion and not the next xenocidal war between the Old Races but the regular mimbari on the street as well as the frontline warriors of lesser ranks are not as well informed, add to that the way suddenly humans were capable of negating the stealth that had protected minbari vessels for centuries after being slaughtered on the battlefield, and sooner than later the rumours are going to take a life of their own, with the soldiers infecting their fears to their field officers and those doing the same with their generals and admirals to the point that despite the rigid hierarchy of the Minbari those at the top will need to do something to quiet the fears of the population before the population takes power from their hands.

 

[Gyre]

The Council knows that this current problem is a localized conflict growing way out of proportion and not the next xenocidal war between the Old Races but the regular mimbari on the street as well as the frontline warriors of lesser ranks are not as well informed, add to that the way suddenly humans were capable of negating the stealth that had protected minbari vessels for centuries after being slaughtered on the battlefield, and sooner than later the rumours are going to take a life of their own, with the soldiers infecting their fears to their field officers and those doing the same with their generals and admirals to the point that despite the rigid hierarchy of the Minbari those at the top will need to do something to quiet the fears of the population before the population takes power from their hands.

Which the Council needs to address. It remains to be seen if they can act like leaders.

 

[Deleted member]

The Vorlons haven't come out. If the Shadows were moving, the Vorlons would be at least visible.

OTL they came out and had at least an ambassador at Babylon 5, and even then some Minbari were unable to believe the Shadows were moving. It's hard to imagine two entire castes convincing themselves of Shadow Conspiracy when there aren't any Vorlons about or sightings of spiky black ships at all.

I thought it was at least partially canonical that Kosh and Ulkesh were actually present on a sealed chamber on Dukhat's flagship and spoke with Delenn, including encouraging her to pick up the person who turned out to be Sinclair.