Babylon 5 A Fighting Chance --- A Babylon 5 AU

[Tryglaw]

Mostly it is because their goal is not to defeat the enemy but to make the enemy see they were wrong. They don't especially want to kill each other, though in the far past they did wage huge wars, they want to be superior and they want the enemies to acknowledge their greatness.

Basically it isn't enough to just kill the other side, they want them humiliated and forced to accept they were wrong. The way they do this is to make younger worlds chose a side, and then fight as proxies. So far there has been no decisive winner, just lots and lots of dead planets.

The show explains it in more detail and there is more to the actual war goals, worth a look if you can find it

It's sort of like Gul Dukat (or some other Cardassian) explained it, "true victory is not to defeat your enemy, but to make them understand it was pointless and wrong to oppose you in the first place...".

 

[Deleted member]

Hmmm, let me check... OK, here's the link.
It just says there >were< 3 of them in existence, with no source for that statement. Episode indicated just shows the capacity to stun / stasis someone.
Of course, in B5 lore "were / are" are a subjective term, keep in mind how Zathras spoke of The One (One that was, One that is, One that will be).

Also, B5 Wiki, War Without End, pt.2, act 5 description:

"The White Star emerges from the time rift back in 2260. As they exit, the time rift closes and all temporal distortions in Sector 14 cease: its role finished at last. Delenn reveals that this is not the only circle that is closing. She reminds him of the fact that Human and Minbari souls began crossing one thousand years ago. Her transformation into a part-human hybrid was part of an effort to correct this imbalance, but now she reveals an insight into what started it. The Triluminary that brought about her transformation also came from one thousand years ago. Someone had to present the station to the Minbari in the past, and they wouldn't have trusted a human. A stunned Cole realizes the implication: "a Minbari not born of Minbari."

So it could well be just that, the three Triluminaries are in fact: the Triluminary that was (brought by Sinclair -> Valen), one that is (same item, used by Delenn to turn human-like), and will be (used by Sinclair in future / past as the loop is completed once more).

Also, this brings up an interesting point, since the Triluminary used by Grey Council to "test" Sinclair and indicate him to "have the soul of Valen" is literally the same one that Sinclair used to "Valen-ise" himself in previous time-loop, it could well be argued that it's not so much the Triluminary did truly scan and confirm Valen's soul, but simply detect Sinclair's DNA* and go "Oh, it's you again. Like...didn't we do this before? Or do you want another round of the same?"

With Triluminary being "our most holy relic", it's extremely unlikely the Minbari would ever disasseble and analyze it so see what is it exactly, what does it do and how does it do what it does. Much rather they'd put it on a shelf somewhere and venerate it. Thus mistaking a genetic (re)sequencer** for a soul detector.

(*) (**) Because DNA scanning and resequencing is exactly what it does, it turns a Human into Human-Minbari hybrid, then a Minbari into Minbari-Human hybrid. Over and over again. So nothing to do with soul engineering, just plain old genetic one...

In short, Minbari surrendered in BotL for wrong reasons...

Souls are so well established in Babylon 5 as real that you cannot rule out it working exactly as advertised.

 

[Tryglaw]

Souls are so well established in Babylon 5 as real that you cannot rule out it working exactly as advertised.

You are correct, they are established. Just that the feats in question don't exactly touch upon the soul as much as they do upon DNA*. Did Delenn's soul "change" in the Chrysalis? Did Sinclair's?

All the critical interpretations were performed by Minbari Religious Caste members, who have something of an institutional bias towards the spiritual rather then scientific...


(*) Sinclair didn't as much have the soul of Valen, he literally was (to become) Valen, again literally down to (pre-spliced) DNA, who in turn was a time-travelling, genetically re-engineered hybrid of Sinclair spliced with Minbari DNA, not that the Grey Council knew any of that at the moment in question.
The "diagnosis" of Sinclair having the soul of Valen was done using the very item Sinclair used to splice himself, again unknown at the time of "discovery".
Of course, at the time of the "diagnosis" being made the Grey Council had no knowledge of time travel being involved either, nor of the Triluminary having the capacity to splice one into the other, as Delenn did her thing a decade+ later.
When you add the "natural" bias of the Religious towards all matters soul and spiritual... it was a honest mistake more likely then not.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

The Triluminary is on Branmer's ship along with the Vorlons.

 

[Harlock]

On the plus side it probably won't make much difference, in this scenario Branmer is now the effective Dictator of Minbar and can do whatever he wants. There will be a new Council but it'll take a while to sort out so there is time for him to alter Minbari policy as he sees fit. The only people with power to stop him are the same people who completely agree with him

The Sinclair revelation and having that be a reason to end the war is a nice idea, but in this story the Minbari don't need it as an excuse, all the exploded warships will do just fine Right now Branmer's word is the word of god to the Minbari, and we know his preference.

But of course even if he wants the war to end, there's no guarantee the other side agrees.

 

[Gyre]

Now why do I see a certain two fighter pilots being brought aboard for interrorgation?

 

[BF110C4]

On the plus side it probably won't make much difference, in this scenario Branmer is now the effective Dictator of Minbar and can do whatever he wants. There will be a new Council but it'll take a while to sort out so there is time for him to alter Minbari policy as he sees fit. The only people with power to stop him are the same people who completely agree with him

The Sinclair revelation and having that be a reason to end the war is a nice idea, but in this story the Minbari don't need it as an excuse, all the exploded warships will do just fine Right now Branmer's word is the word of god to the Minbari, and we know his preference.

But of course even if he wants the war to end, there's no guarantee the other side agrees.

Thankfully the reason Earth made this raid in the first place was to (finally) force the Mimbari to talk to them with words instead of energy weapons. Earth will accept a peaceful settlement, as long as the price its right. And I'm not only talking about Q40 or border planets, but they also require them to open diplomatic relations with the younger races and I bet to allow full independence to the Protectorate species.

The real problem for Brammer is going to be the obligatory post-war demilitarization Earth and all of her allies are going to demand. It doesn't matter if they are actually reasonable and allow the mimbari a large enough navy to be a somewhat effective deterrent to the Centaury and other opportunistic races or if the restrictions are valid for only a hundred years or so, he knows that the Shadows are coming and rebuilding his heavy forces is the first priority. He might have to give to the younger races mimbari frontline military tech in order to even the odds, something that his own people would never forgive or forget, even if he is a dictator in all but name it will require a lot of smooth talking with the Warrior and Worker Caste to avoid a civil war.

 

[Harlock]

Branmer will end up a very divisive figure among his people, some will worship him, others hate him. In the end there will be some form of major shake up on Minbar, given what has happened it is inevitable.
The old order of Minbar will collapse and it will be far more nasty then the war between Warrior and Religious castes from the show. Something far closer to a full scale revolution.

But that is something for the continuation

 

[mwkillkenny84]

The old order of Minbar will collapse and it will be far more nasty then the war between Warrior and Religious castes from the show. Something far closer to a full scale revolution.

Nitpick: the old Warrior/Religious Civil War came to be for both long term cultural problems and the facts that 1) the Warriors wanted more glory and 2) a large part of the space forces were their exclusive domain (yes, I know that both Workers and Religious had fleets of their own, but how many crews of said fleets had any combat experience outside of yearly-or-more training exercises?). Add the 'distasteful' (for them) conclusion of the canonical EA/Minbari War, and you have a recipe for disaster.

Here in this timeline?

The Warriors' monopoly on spaceborn combat had been trounced, hard, against the hammer that was an EA fleet able to not only shoot back, but do so and realiabily hit targets too; and the Caste itself has lost too much of its prestige with their blunderings (like, for example, Shakiri openly adding the Narn/Drazi/Dilgar coalition to the fronts of the EA/Minbari War by attacking their combined fleets when they were defending Cyrus Colony)... and if Brammer and Delenn will be inclined to do so, the 'leaking' of the so-called 'complicity' between Sineval and a Drakh will finish the job and make them pariah (or at least, any chance of their ideas surviving the aftermath of the war).

Second, the fleet crews are composed mainly by a mix of Worker and Religious Minbari plus a smattering of Warrior Caste reservists that Brammer personally trained and whose guidance nearly got Minbar a clean victory that would have let them save face at an eventual announcing of "Earth has fallen, the War ends now."

At this moment, for the Fleets Brammer is God, or at least the leader under which they got victories that the Warrior Caste Old Guard would have never obtained with their less-than-flexible tactics. Ergo, any peep against Brammer will enjoy ortillery on its coordinates, even if only on the metaphorical sense of the term.

 

[BF110C4]

Nitpick: the old Warrior/Religious Civil War came to be for both long term cultural problems and the facts that 1) the Warriors wanted more glory and 2) a large part of the space forces were their exclusive domain (yes, I know that both Workers and Religious had fleets of their own, but how many crews of said fleets had any combat experience outside of yearly-or-more training exercises?). Add the 'distasteful' (for them) conclusion of the canonical EA/Minbari War, and you have a recipe for disaster.

Here in this timeline?

The Warriors' monopoly on spaceborn combat had been trounched, hard, against the hammer that was an EA fleet able to not only shoot back, but do so and realiabily hit targets too; and the Caste itself has lost too much of its prestige with their blunderings (like, for example, Shakiri openly adding the Narn/Drazi/Dilgar coalition to the fronts of the EA/Minbari War by attacking their combined fleets when they were defending Cyrus Colony)... and if Brammer and Delenn will be inclined to do so, the 'leaking' of the so-called 'complicity' between Sineval and a Drakh will finish the job and make them pariah (or at least, any chance of their ideas surviving the aftermath of the war).

Second, the fleet crews are composed mainl by a mix of Worker and Religious Minbari plus a smittering of Warrior Caste reservists that Brammer personally trained and whose guidance nearly got Minbar a clean victory that would have let save face at an eventual announcing of "Earth has fallen, the War ends now."

At this moment, for the Fleets Brammer is God, or at least the leader under wich they got victories that the Warrior Caste Old Guard would have never obtained with their less-than-flexible tactics. Ergo, any peep against Brammer will enjoy ortillery on its coordinates, even if only on the metaphorical sense of the term.

Yeah, but this time they have suffered a lot of deaths in their camp after centuries of unchallenged supremacy in combat as well as a series of attacks that from their viewpoint not only cost their most venerated living Mimbari but also most of the Grey Council. And now instead of looking for justice Brammer will need to negociate peace that is going to be expensive, even if they can easily afford it, and with some obligations that will be seen as humilliating.

There won't be a Civil War today but sooner or later that kind of humilliation will be used as a political tool by someone wishing for both power and revenge and thanks to the timeline we know the Shadows are using it will probably happen at just the worst possible moment for Brammer and the galaxy at large.

 

[mwkillkenny84]

And now instead of looking for justice Brammer will need to negociate peace that is going to be expensive, even if they can easily afford it, and with some obligations that will be seen as humilliating.

And Brammer can play the framing that Jah'dur did on a link Sineval/Shadows' pawn as a card to say "how can be we sure that the connection was not older and that our ancient foes' agents did not organize Dukhat's demise at humans' hands because they wanted a war to cover himself in glory?" to shot down the opposition from the Warrior Caste.

 

[Harlock]

I wouldn't expect trouble anytime soon, more in a decade or so once people start asking 'What do you want?' and the answers could be quite interesting

A caste based conflict would be too easy, I'd be thinking of a much broader upheaval based on different objectives

 

[mwkillkenny84]

I wouldn't expect trouble anytime soon, more in a decade or so once people start asking 'What do you want?' and the answers could be quite interesting

A caste based conflict would be too easy, I'd be thinking of a much broader upheaval based on different objectives

And I repeat, for the Brammer-trained crews of the late stage of this version of the War Brammer is a god in all but name.

Under him and his leadership, they started to get victories against the EA that was making the Old Guard looking like a bunch of fools.

If it had not been for Jah'dur's intervention during the Battle of the Line, he could have managed to score a tactical victory that would have stopped the war then and there.

Under his guidance, they will be able to return to their families more-or-less in one piece.

I suspect that any tentative orf the Agents of the Shadow to ask "What do you want?" until the current fleet crews will not have retired will get an answer that will sound like "that the spaceship crews will stop pointing the main batteries on the position of anyone that has bad thoughts against Brammer. Like what is happening in this very moment."

 

[Harlock]

That can well apply to his Navy, likely a good chunk of the Army too as even if they doubt Branmer they would back Neroon who is the quintessential warrior. But I'm looking more at the average Minbari.

That of course leads to the question of what is an average Minbari? What is life like for a normal citizen? For all the times the Minbari show up we know precious little about how their society actually works. Aside from their leadership and aspects of religion little is explored and there's precious little in canon writings either.

The big change is going to be a loss of faith and trust in how their society was set up, that the Council basically lied and misled them about some important things. Branmer will bring in some reforms to try and address that but it will be a simmering issue that agitators will stoke, and one that concerns all Clans and Castes.

But to really figure it out I'm going to have to do some stuff on Minbari society, and as not much exists I'll need to fill out myself. That's going to be some hefty world building and I haven't really started yet

So any future upset will be more about how Minbari higher ups have treated the basic citizens and why. Branmer can't really alter the current style of government even if he wanted to as he has a war to prepare for and a military to rebuild, so it does put him opposite a lot of people who won't be impressed by his military record.

I am thinking a bit of the French Revolution and maybe even the Russians as the Minbari leadership does seem incredibly rigid, detached and authoritarian. But at this stage I can't say for sure as I haven't started my real research and planning

 

[BF110C4]

That can well apply to his Navy, likely a good chunk of the Army too as even if they doubt Branmer they would back Neroon who is the quintessential warrior. But I'm looking more at the average Minbari.

That of course leads to the question of what is an average Minbari? What is life like for a normal citizen? For all the times the Minbari show up we know precious little about how their society actually works. Aside from their leadership and aspects of religion little is explored and there's precious little in canon writings either.

The big change is going to be a loss of faith and trust in how their society was set up, that the Council basically lied and misled them about some important things. Branmer will bring in some reforms to try and address that but it will be a simmering issue that agitators will stoke, and one that concerns all Clans and Castes.

But to really figure it out I'm going to have to do some stuff on Minbari society, and as not much exists I'll need to fill out myself. That's going to be some hefty world building and I haven't really started yet

So any future upset will be more about how Minbari higher ups have treated the basic citizens and why. Branmer can't really alter the current style of government even if he wanted to as he has a war to prepare for and a military to rebuild, so it does put him opposite a lot of people who won't be impressed by his military record.

I am thinking a bit of the French Revolution and maybe even the Russians as the Minbari leadership does seem incredibly rigid, detached and authoritarian. But at this stage I can't say for sure as I haven't started my real research and planning

Also its almost certain the mimbari will need to give up colonies near the border. That can go one of three ways:

1.-The population is removed before giving up those planets, which will create a number of displaced and angry citizens,
2.-The population stays and they start talking with their relatives about the freedom humans have and the way they are being discriminated by the new rulers which gives not one, but two reasons for the population to be angry with their goverment.
3.-The population stays and then every communication from them is censored to hell and back by the goverment which will increase the concern and anger by the population, and might detonate said anger the moment they discover the censorship they are living under while imagining the worst happening to their fellow mimbari who were sacrificed to the humans/narm/dilgar (and the last one would get anyone reasonably worried about fates worse than death).

 

[ian1246]

Love the story, latest update was fantastic! So glad to see a Fighting Chance being progressed and coming to its conclusion. Very much a worthy successor to the fantastic Dilgar War (Still remember first binge reading that when at Uni in 2007! Great memories )

It's also kind of... fitting, that The Dilgar War was what first led me to Spacebattles.... and now a Fighting Chance, the Dilgar War's successor, is what has led me to The Sietch 😃

 

[Shadow Knight]

I am curious as to what the EA (and allies) would ask for at a the peace table. Would they really want Minbari colony worlds? I don't think so. Maybe some uninhabited border areas as a buffer zone. Reparations in technology, raw materials, etc. would be what they would ask for being at the top.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

Im in agreement with @mwkillkenny84 on this one. The military caste has been hoisted on their own petard. The impetus for the Civil War is gone. I wouldnt be surprised to see Delenn's solution happen now. 5 worker caste, 2 religious and 2 warrior for the new Council.

 

[Arlos]

I mean, the Minbari did declare a war of extermination, it is something that seems to have been a bit glossed over until now, especially in terms of public opinion, but it’s actually a really big deal? you can’t exactly have a lenient peace treaty when your enemy announced loud and clear that they wanted to exterminate your people.

 

[BF110C4]

I mean, the Minbari did declare a war of extermination, it is something that seems to have been a bit glossed over until now, especially in terms of public opinion, but it’s actually a really big deal? you can’t exactly have a lenient peace treaty when your enemy announced loud and clear that they wanted to exterminate your people.

Remember, Earth Alliance and the LONAW did sign a negociated peace with the Dilgar and a few decades later the Dilgar came to their rescue. By comparision the mimbari didn't have the chance of commiting too many warcrimes against civilians even when they targeted Earth, it will be hard but there is plenty of evidence that humans are more than willing to make a pact with the devil.