Specifically TT, but there are 'flamer' weapons in lore which actually fire pelletized Promethium. Think of a paint ball gun with super pressure firing balls of incandescent, liquid death.
A Catachan Battalion vs Na'vi at Avatar 1
- Thread starter Tyzuris
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TheRejectionist
TheRejectionist
Navi get wrecked as they should.
The other tricky thing is that the final Battle of the first Avatar movie, IIRC, didn't take place on the surface so to speak, but in the Hallelujah Mountains and thus the actual battlefield was a giant floating rock with its own giant biome. I could be mistaken but all of the forces the RDA brought in to that final battle were airdropped. But even if it is on the surface, and it could very well be (and should be since otherwise the OP wouldn't work), the RDA still had to deploy their forces using airborne vehicles to the battlefield.
The only reason I'm bringing it up is that there is no reasonable way for the Navi forces to counter the twenty or so heavily armored vehicles in the Catachan battalion... but conversely... they are not very mobile in the jungle. Literally having to BURN everything down to get somewhere with terrain as unfriendly as Pandora isn't going to be practical. Do I think a battalion of 800 Catachan troops can defeat two thousand Navi. Yeah... I do. But they'd have to force the engagement and unlike the RDA, they'd take a much longer time getting there which could mean a prolonged attrition of Catachan forces and/or greater numbers of Navi available for when they are actually forced to fight and defend one of their happy trees.
The only reason I'm bringing it up is that there is no reasonable way for the Navi forces to counter the twenty or so heavily armored vehicles in the Catachan battalion... but conversely... they are not very mobile in the jungle. Literally having to BURN everything down to get somewhere with terrain as unfriendly as Pandora isn't going to be practical. Do I think a battalion of 800 Catachan troops can defeat two thousand Navi. Yeah... I do. But they'd have to force the engagement and unlike the RDA, they'd take a much longer time getting there which could mean a prolonged attrition of Catachan forces and/or greater numbers of Navi available for when they are actually forced to fight and defend one of their happy trees.
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Scooby Doo
Well-known member
Yeah those type of flamer weapons still don't have a listed weapon ranges tho, the Incendine Combustor from the video game Warhammer40k: Mechanicus which is like the best type of flame thrower weapon in lore available has a smaller range than any bolter or rifle in the game.
Suffice to say unless you have something from the novels the claim of flamers being short ranged remains true.
Scooby Doo
Well-known member
There's also the issue that the Battalion isn't carrying nearly enough fuel to burn their way to their objective, even middle end flamer weapons carry only like 12 seconds worth of fuel. Unless the OP magically handwaved logistics those tanks would run out of ammo long before they get half way to the objective unless you know they do a slow burn and wait an hour or so to burn the forests down.
TheRejectionist
TheRejectionist
Only marginally off-topic but...
I could have never imagined in 2009 (I was 14) I would have sided against the Na'vi.
There is the fact I was a child and childish Communist and maybe that influenced my opinion (?).
After that "phase" and the "Wehraboo" phase and "Monarchist" phase, I would side with my species, despite we would be ethically and morally questionable at best and we would work for a corporation which is the fictional (in my opinion) version of Monsanto and BP.
Then, the problem is that the RDA exists because (correct me if I am wrong) Earth is in fucking deep shit and need all the resources it can get.
I would likely be the first to say "Ethics be damned I want my family and friends and the rest of mankind to survive".
I have an idea for an alternate universe of Avatar in response to that sack of shit that is James Cameron.
I could have never imagined in 2009 (I was 14) I would have sided against the Na'vi.
There is the fact I was a child and childish Communist and maybe that influenced my opinion (?).
After that "phase" and the "Wehraboo" phase and "Monarchist" phase, I would side with my species, despite we would be ethically and morally questionable at best and we would work for a corporation which is the fictional (in my opinion) version of Monsanto and BP.
Then, the problem is that the RDA exists because (correct me if I am wrong) Earth is in fucking deep shit and need all the resources it can get.
I would likely be the first to say "Ethics be damned I want my family and friends and the rest of mankind to survive".
I have an idea for an alternate universe of Avatar in response to that sack of shit that is James Cameron.
DO IT!
Agent23
Ни шагу назад!
Yeah, the place is a death world, where everything is out to kill you, from the bugs and the microbes to the vsrious types of rapidly growing megaflora thst IIRC burrowed under buildings to destroy them.
Also, we really shouldn't forget that 40k weapons are a lot more powerful than current year ones, with the most ubiquitous las rifles haveing the power of a 12mm anti-material rifle.
The flsmethrs for instance IIRC use prometheum.
So the Catachans have better firepower and superior strategy, tactics and training.
I'm just curious as to what potential strategy, tactics and training that the Catachans will apply here that will earn them a solid W. We can all agree that the Catachans have more capability then the RDA when it comes to their ground forces, but they still have to find a way to apply that superiority into seizing victory.
Scooby Doo
Well-known member
They don't, there is no winnable strategy (Too few, no air support) with out making the Navi's look like they share one brain cell.
And it's important to note that even if the Catachan can't win, that doesn't mean the Catachans quality is invalid or that of Warhammer 40K.
For all of the plotholes and weak writing that James Cameron is accused of, he had to make a scenario which made it seem plausible for the final Battle to take place. The movie set up a time sensitive reason (a few days their will be enough Navi to overcome the perimeter), why the RDA used lightly armored forces (it was basically a private company), and had them deploy to the Hallelujah Mountains where everyone could only be transported by aircraft. They didn't even have a dedicated bomber since they had to use a shuttle to deploy a daisy cutter.
The Catachans could take on two thousand Navi in an open battle, but the Navi won't have to oblige unless they're forced to and the only thing that would force them to fight would be one of their super magic trees.
The OP might actually be more interesting if it took place at the Hometree. It actually seemed to have some clear fields of fire and while the RDA flew there, maybe it was accessible by ground routes so the Catachans could fight a convoy through the jungle to said Hometree.
But then again the RDA already won that Battle so... there might not be much of a point involved.
For all of the plotholes and weak writing that James Cameron is accused of, he had to make a scenario which made it seem plausible for the final Battle to take place. The movie set up a time sensitive reason (a few days their will be enough Navi to overcome the perimeter), why the RDA used lightly armored forces (it was basically a private company), and had them deploy to the Hallelujah Mountains where everyone could only be transported by aircraft. They didn't even have a dedicated bomber since they had to use a shuttle to deploy a daisy cutter.
The Catachans could take on two thousand Navi in an open battle, but the Navi won't have to oblige unless they're forced to and the only thing that would force them to fight would be one of their super magic trees.
The OP might actually be more interesting if it took place at the Hometree. It actually seemed to have some clear fields of fire and while the RDA flew there, maybe it was accessible by ground routes so the Catachans could fight a convoy through the jungle to said Hometree.
But then again the RDA already won that Battle so... there might not be much of a point involved.
Lord Sovereign
The resident Britbong
Catachan is a planet that produces unending legions of roided up Rambos. It is a far grimmer environment than Pandora, that kills a significant amount of its Guard recruits, and the Catachans get homesick for it when out on deployment.
These are the best jungle fighters in the Imperium. Pandora would essentially be their homeworld on easy mode.
They'd come for the Na'vi in the night...
These are the best jungle fighters in the Imperium. Pandora would essentially be their homeworld on easy mode.
They'd come for the Na'vi in the night...
TheRejectionist
TheRejectionist
I want to take priority for my OC content, which stopped because of my mother's cancer (now cured, she still we do some chemio and radiotherapy, but the big danger is over) and my linguistic exam (I passed after 1 year and at the 5th attempt : the professor is very precise and that's because his curriculum vitae/resume is 27 pages of carreer! Thank God my University is not in the States otherwise I would be in economic deep shit !) but I think I could just be writing the beginning and others could write the following chapters. @Circle of Willis and @Navarro would you guys be interested?
And it's important to note that even if the Catachan can't win, that doesn't mean the Catachans quality is invalid or that of Warhammer 40K.
For all of the plotholes and weak writing that James Cameron is accused of, he had to make a scenario which made it seem plausible for the final Battle to take place. The movie set up a time sensitive reason (a few days their will be enough Navi to overcome the perimeter), why the RDA used lightly armored forces (it was basically a private company), and had them deploy to the Hallelujah Mountains where everyone could only be transported by aircraft. They didn't even have a dedicated bomber since they had to use a shuttle to deploy a daisy cutter.
The Catachans could take on two thousand Navi in an open battle, but the Navi won't have to oblige unless they're forced to and the only thing that would force them to fight would be one of their super magic trees.
The OP might actually be more interesting if it took place at the Hometree. It actually seemed to have some clear fields of fire and while the RDA flew there, maybe it was accessible by ground routes so the Catachans could fight a convoy through the jungle to said Hometree.
But then again the RDA already won that Battle so... there might not be much of a point involved.
Yeah, people do sometimes forget that, well, the Navi lost their battle. One might quipt that the Navi did more damage than they should have with cavalry charging a machine gun line, but having watched the movie recently the movie gives little sign that cavalry charge came close to overrunning the RDA line. Even in the air the warriors lost. It was only when the planet itself responded and sent 1,000s of flyers against the aircraft and those invincible rhinos that the human line got overrun.
RDA did what you want to do as a conventional army against a guerilla army: draw them into a stand up fight where superior firepower could win.
The Catachan's have a simular issue: looking at the force structure, a platoon is about 40, for 120 per company. Assuming 5 companies, that's about 600 infantrymen, assumedly light without organic vehicles. Plus 30 ish combat vehicles.
If they move out in force against non-critical targets, they do not have a reason to engage. Well, besides circling around to hit the base. So, with 2,000 Navi, they try to hunt down one group, say a 1,000, with 400 of their troops, then the Navi engage the remainder at base, the other 1,000 circling back produces a 5-1 numerical advantage for the Navi. At the very least, they may be able to kill off some supporting people.
Going out on patrols provides even more opportunity to defeat in detail and inflict steady attritional damage on the Catachan's, and if the Catachan's are in the same situation as the RDA they have a fixed number of people, while the Navi have a steady steam of reinforcements coming in, and with the human support, a brain trust that can figure out effective countermeasures and what equipment is worth stealing.
A finite force against an infinitely resupplying force is not a path to victory, and I'm not sure the Catachan-Navi kill/death ratio would be high enough: especially if fighting drains irreplaceable, or slow to replace, material.
The difficulty here is were pitting a primitive force against a modern force without a modern force's true main advantage: bottomless industrial capacity: Some of the American-Indian Wars for example resulted in surprisingly even casualties. The problem for the Indians however was that losing 300 men was 15% of all fighting men available, while Custer's last stand might be embarrassing, but trivial to the 50,000 man US army (0.6% mobilized manpower) and a tiny bit of US manpower reserves of 5 million ish, which is really a tiny portion of potential US manpower reserves if necessary (say, you included foreign mercenaries or other Indians the US could afford).
Here however, the situation cuts off the advanced side from industrial superiority, and I'm not sure the k/d ratio would be high enough to allow the Catachan's to win and not be driven to witdraw.
Scooby Doo
Well-known member
I want to point out that irc the Navi force was OVER two thousand, that's the minimum. This isn't counting the Banshee Riders or the Calvary, the Calvary with alien horses irc was 300 Riders strong according to the script.
The animal reinforcement via riderless Banshees was also "Hundreds" strong. A fraction of the Banshees with Riders is also "Hundreds" strong.
The forces we're looking at is more 2,500+ before reinforcement from animals or other Navi.
Edit: Also while the RDA were winning they actually had substantial amounts of air support in addition to being roughly 1,200 personnel strong. Which makes the RDA for better equipped and numerous than the Catachans in this scenario (Sorry Helicopters/Air support trump Tanks in jungle warfare)
The animal reinforcement via riderless Banshees was also "Hundreds" strong. A fraction of the Banshees with Riders is also "Hundreds" strong.
The forces we're looking at is more 2,500+ before reinforcement from animals or other Navi.
Edit: Also while the RDA were winning they actually had substantial amounts of air support in addition to being roughly 1,200 personnel strong. Which makes the RDA for better equipped and numerous than the Catachans in this scenario (Sorry Helicopters/Air support trump Tanks in jungle warfare)
Val the Moofia Boss
Well-known member
Biggest issue I see is that the entire planet is alive. Every living creature and tree is connected and sharing intel. Ewya commanded the animals to attack the RDA towards the end of the battle, after Jake's forces had done a number on Quarritch's. If you consider Avatar 2 then the RDA doesn't even attempt to attack the Na'vi in the forests anymore because they have 10 minutes until the environment begins to rally against them, hence why the RDA started making use of the Recombinants as they would not draw the ire of Pandora's organisms. The only time the RDA flew into the forests again was to drop off Quarritch's recombinant crew before high tailing back to their fortress of Bridgehead, and they had more firepower than the RDA had in the first movie (they had at least 3 dragon gunships parked at Bridgehead). I don't think it'd be possible to prevail against the near infinite forces of Ewya's creatures, being coordinated by a supercomputer, without resorting to just dropping a giant rock on the planet, but then you wouldn't need ground forces.
Scooby Doo
Well-known member
Hmm counter argument, while it's true they have a similar home planet their population and military power is significantly greater than 800 infantry with a squadron or two of tanks.
You can't apply the entire factions collective feats to a small group, it's kinda like debating Stormtroopers and saying
"WELL Stormtroopers are known to be able to blow up entire planets"
Which would be factually correct but omitting context like they've still been known to die and need equipment that isn't in the debate.
OP is really just about the 1st movie fight.
What the planet brings to the fight is NOT insurmountable. Rhino critters may be pretty tough, but I bet they run from Promethium or just dissolve vs Chem-Cannons. The ground forces Awha brings are screwed.
All the flying beasties are the threat in open terrain. But a few Hydra batteries should turn a LOT of that into raining chunky salsa. Any they miss will be dealt with by lots of Lasfire. The flyers can't really help in the thick jungle.
Edit: no idea where the bold came from on my phone. - fixed
What the planet brings to the fight is NOT insurmountable. Rhino critters may be pretty tough, but I bet they run from Promethium or just dissolve vs Chem-Cannons. The ground forces Awha brings are screwed.
All the flying beasties are the threat in open terrain. But a few Hydra batteries should turn a LOT of that into raining chunky salsa. Any they miss will be dealt with by lots of Lasfire. The flyers can't really help in the thick jungle.
Edit: no idea where the bold came from on my phone. - fixed
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Sadly no hydras are here.
But autocannons