2nd Civil War Theorycrafting Thread, Peaches Free

[SpaceOrbis]

Lmao imagine the dissapointment and panic of the glowies when they entered the Capitol and proceeded to do nothing.

"A perfect operation gentlemen, this will be the nail to the coffin. Wait, what do you mean none of them are shooting? WHAT DO YOU MEAN THERE IS ONLY TEN BROKEN WINDOWS? I was asured by the intel they would be setting off IEDs and trying to kill people, that is why we let them in!"

I read a good story about this day that saw that thing happen. It was a bit much in my eyes but it is what I think was the goal for Trump and the people who allowed it to happen. I'm happy nobody did anything besides trespass on federal property and stealing some papers. It could've been far worse. It should never have happened but it did and I'm happy it wasn't as bad as it could've have been.

 

[SpaceOrbis]

If they'd done what Trump wanted, they would have protested peacefully in front of the building and none of that shit would have happened. That was what he told them to do, after all.

Oh sure and the whole thing about the thing that was made outside was what? People just acting. There was a difference between protesting and whatever the hell that was. People have the right to be upset. People don't have the right to try to stop the verification of a democratically elected president.

 

[Bacle]

No, I saw the videos of the people that took part that day. I watched some of the hearings by the people who were attacked that day too. I will admit I didn't watch all of it and as it's a nearly a year old story I doubt I will feel any great need to do so. But what evidence do you think I haven't seen or heard about?

I opted out of the talk because to be fair what would be the point in trying to have a chat when everything up to that point was that it never happened or it wasn't as bad as your making it out to be. It's far better to just pull out and allow people to think whatever they like. I have talked to people who think the Moon Landings were faked. I don't give them any of my time too so why should I do it for this?

As I said before I don't care about this sort of thing. Hell if it wasn't for people making fun of Trump I wouldn't know 99% of what the guy says or does. I just don't care about attacking a people based on something as dumb as what party you are with. I couldn't give any less of a shit about left or right nonsense. I myself am apparently a central slightly to the left person based on a few tests I have taken on that sort of thing.

My dislike of Trump has fuck all to do with him being on the right or whatever else. I dislike the guy because he is an incompetent simpleton and makes us look all like some backwood hillbillies. You have the right to think Trump is the greatest thing to happen to this nation but I don't.

My time here has shown me that you lot seem to be anti-left. I'm fine with that as everybody has a right to their views. But having the right to hold a view in no way makes that view true.

I do not think Trump is the greatest thing ever, in fact quite the opposite at this point. I'd only vote for him again grudgingly, even if I think he had the election stolen from him, because he cannot put his ego and pride aside for anything it seems.

However I think that the lies around Jan 6th are manifold, and that they have been spread by a lot of people with power in DC because they know the media won't call them out.

As I said, I would recommend going into the dedicated Jan 6th thread here, and looking through what all has happened. Also, Jack Posobiec on Twitter has a lot of addition photo's and vids that have been released but not publicized by the media.

Understand, I am a Registered Independent, not a Republican, and actually come from a Hard-D background. I am not 'anti-Left', I'm just stuck on the 'Right' because the Far-left went nuts and I have always been more in the center than the current Dems are ok with.

 

[BlackDragon98]

I do not think Trump is the greatest thing ever, in fact quite the opposite at this point. I'd only vote for him again grudgingly, even if I think he had the election stolen from him, because he cannot put his ego and pride aside for anything it seems.

However I think that the lies around Jan 6th are manifold, and that they have been spread by a lot of people with power in DC because they know the media won't call them out.

As I said, I would recommend going into the dedicated Jan 6th thread here, and looking through what all has happened. Also, Jack Posobiec on Twitter has a lot of addition photo's and vids that have been released but not publicized by the media.

Understand, I am a Registered Independent, not a Republican, and actually come from a Hard-D background. I am not 'anti-Left', I'm just stuck on the 'Right' because the Far-left went nuts and I have always been more in the center than the current Dems are ok with.

Dems have always been messed up.

Remember, the KKK was founded and supported for the longest time by Democrats.

 

[SpaceOrbis]

I do not think Trump is the greatest thing ever, in fact, quite the opposite at this point. I'd only vote for him again grudgingly, even if I think he had the election stolen from him, because he cannot put his ego and pride aside for anything it seems.

However, I think that the lies around Jan 6th are manifold, and that they have been spread by a lot of people with power in DC because they know the media won't call them out.

As I said, I would recommend going into the dedicated Jan 6th thread here, and looking through what all has happened. Also, Jack Posobiec on Twitter has a lot of additional photos and vids that have been released but not publicized by the media.

Understand, I am a Registered Independent, not a Republican, and actually come from a Hard-D background. I am not 'anti-Left', I'm just stuck on the 'Right' because the Far-left went nuts and I have always been more in the center than the current Dems are ok with.

I never said that you were. I said that by what I have seen that seems to be the view taken by most posters here. I will say this when I first heard he was running I thought it was a joke. I still held that view up until he was one of the last people left standing. When he won I was truly surprised because he had no political experience and never seemed worthy of the job.

I was one of the few people in 2016 that was willing to give him his shot. However, the longer he was in power the more things turned me off from him. But again I never cared about such matters so I'm sure what I know vs everything else is so one-sided it isn't funny. He may have done some good things. I don't deny such a possibility but even a broken clock is right twice a day. That doesn't mean I shouldn't replace it when I can.

It is also telling that Trump seems to want the hearings and whatever the fallout of that day to not happen. If nothing happened why should he care? Nothing happened...right? So let the law do its job.

 

[Bacle]

Dems have always been messed up.

Remember, the KKK was founded and supported for the longest time by Democrats.

Remember Union Dems/Blue Dogs are a thing, and the GOP gave the younger generations Bush Jr.

I never said that you were. I said that by what I have seen that seems to be the view taken by most posters here. I will say this when I first heard he was running I thought it was a joke. I still held that view up until he was one of the last people left standing. When he won I was truly surprised because he had no political experience and never seemed worthy of the job.

I was one of the few people in 2016 that was willing to give him his shot. However, the longer he was in power the more things turned me off from him. But again I never cared about such matters so I'm sure what I know vs everything else is so one-sided it isn't funny. He may have done some good things. I don't deny such a possibility but even a broken clock is right twice a day. That doesn't mean I shouldn't replace it when I can.

It is also telling that Trump seems to want the hearings and whatever the fallout of that day to not happen. If nothing happened why should he care? Nothing happened...right? So let the law do its job.

That's because those hearing are being run by Liz Cheney and the same idiots who engaged in the farce Impeachments; it has nothing to do with 'law', it's pure politics.

It's a kangeroo court made up of people who never liked Trump to begin with, that have already been caught doctoring text messages they present in evidence, and is only happening because the FBI probe didn't turn up the smoking gun the Congressional Dems have been lying about. They couldn't win in the courts, so they are holding a trial in the capital, where they get to make the rules and can ignore any laws they like, because no one has the power to stop them.

 

[Free-Stater 101]

Oh no doubt. If there did what he wanted them to do who knows what the fallout would be. Maybe a civil war though I think such a thing is unlikely.

Trump is a blusterer even his enemies acknowledge this, anyone can tell you that the reason he was bitching repeatedly over the election results had nothing to do with him truly thinking he could overturn the results by the time of January 6th and everything to do with him using it to build capitol so he could complain about how the election was stolen from him until 2024 over anything else.

Sure you can argue that Trump miscalculated his own diehards zealously and common sense when they should have known better than entering the building egged on or otherwise, but a legitimate, serious, planned coup attempt by the man it most certainly wasn't.

Oh sure and the whole thing about the thing that was made outside was what? People just acting. There was a difference between protesting and whatever the hell that was. People have the right to be upset. People don't have the right to try to stop the verification of a democratically elected president.

You wont hear otherwise from me or most others here, but keep in mind your arguing with people over the extent of Trumps involvement and regardless of what the crowd did ultimately did or did not do.

 

[WolfBear]

Dems have always been messed up.

Remember, the KKK was founded and supported for the longest time by Democrats.

Yes, Yes, 'coz Democrats are the real racists!

 

[WolfBear]

Trump is a blusterer even his enemies acknowledge this, anyone can tell you that the reason he was bitching repeatedly over the election results had nothing to do with him truly thinking he could overturn the results by the time of January 6th and everything to do with him using it to build capitol so he could complain about how the election was stolen from him until 2024 over anything else.

Sure you can argue that Trump miscalculated his own diehards zealously and common sense when they should have known better than entering the building egged on or otherwise, but a legitimate, serious, planned coup attempt by the man it most certainly wasn't.

You wont hear otherwise from me or most others here, but keep in mind your arguing with people over the extent of Trumps involvement and regardless of what the crowd did ultimately did or did not do.

TBH, I do think that there was a hope, however faint, that the US Supreme Court would keep Trump in power after he lost in 2020 by overturning the election results.

 

[SpaceOrbis]

Trump is a blusterer even his enemies acknowledge this, anyone can tell you that the reason he was bitching repeatedly over the election results had nothing to do with him truly thinking he could overturn the results by the time of January 6th and everything to do with him using it to build capital so he could complain about how the election was stolen from him until 2024 over anything else.

Sure you can argue that Trump miscalculated his own diehards zealously and common sense when they should have known better than entering the building egged on or otherwise, but a legitimate, serious, planned coup attempt by the man it most certainly wasn't.

You won't hear otherwise from me or most others here, but keep in mind your arguing with people over the extent of Trumps involvement and regardless of what the crowd did ultimately did or did not do.

When any leader tells his base to go and do a thing he or she should be held responsible for what those people do regardless of whether they participate or not. Trump was a fool for even allowing such a lie to last long enough to allow such an outcome to be made possible.

When he was sworn into office on January 20th 2017 he made an oath to defend the Constitution of the United States from all threats. But he told his base of supports to go and stop the verification of a democratically elected president. The fact he didn't take part holds no weight here at all. He was recorded telling them to go and stop that.

I'm just happy most of them had the good sense to just mill about the place taking photos and recording videos so the law can find them later.

 

[WolfBear]

When any leader tells his base to go and do a thing he or she should be held responsible for what those people do regardless of whether they participate or not. Trump was a fool for even allowing such a lie to last long enough to allow such an outcome to be made possible.

When he was sworn into office on January 20th 2016 he made an oath to defend the Constitution of the United States from all threats. But he told his base of supports to go and stop the verification of a democratically elected president. The fact he didn't take part holds no weight here at all. He was recorded telling them to go and stop that.

I'm just happy most of them had the good sense to just mill about the place taking photos and recording videos so the law can find them later.

*January 20, 2017.

 

[SpaceOrbis]

TBH, I do think that there was a hope, however faint, that the US Supreme Court would keep Trump in power after he lost in 2020 by overturning the election results.

But wouldn't that be clearly unconstitutional? You may as well just say our form of government no longer exists.

 

[SpaceOrbis]

*January 20, 2017.

Thank you. I have fixed it.

 

[WolfBear]

But wouldn't that be clearly unconstitutional? You may as well just say our form of government no longer exists.

They could try coming up with some vague excuse about voter fraud or whatever. No one other than hardcore Trump supporters are actually going to buy this, of course.

 

[Battlegrinder]

But wouldn't that be clearly unconstitutional? You may as well just say our form of government no longer exists.

It would depend heavily on the exact circumstances of the case. Bush vs Gore didn't end the existence of the US government, after all. And the SC arguably should have been more involved in this election than it was, by doing stuff like smacking down the Pennsylvania SC's meddling in election procedures in a flatly illegitimate manner (short version is the SC struck down parts of a voting regulation bill that set a deadline for mail in ballots to be received, but demanded the rest of the law stay in place, even though the law explicitly stated that if anyone one provision was struck down, the entire law would stop applying).

However, outside of that sort of thing, there's no real legal grounds for the SC to rule on anything or overturn anything, particularly after the state certifies the results. Control of election procedures and practices was vested in the state legislatures for a reason, and the federal government has no right to micromanage them (this is, among other reasons, why the democrat's "voting rights" bill should not be passed even if it was totally benign, which it is not).

 

[SpaceOrbis]

They could try coming up with some vague excuse about voter fraud or whatever. No one other than hardcore Trump supporters are actually going to buy this, of course.

Nor should they as such a thing would be clearly a bullshit story. Trump lost in 2020. I don't recall by how much but it was a sizable gap. If we overturned the outcome and kept Trump in office we may just come out and say that we no longer live in a democratic republic. I'm not sure what we would be under but it sure wouldn't be a nation by the people for the people.

 

[Free-Stater 101]

TBH, I do think that there was a hope, however faint, that the US Supreme Court would keep Trump in power after he lost in 2020 by overturning the election results.

That I wont deny at all although I personally blame the 'Q's and Trump feeding their minds with the belief that somehow he could still hold the presidentcy for the main reason the belief held on past the electors having met. It doesnt matter of the election was stolen or not every last one of them should have realized Trump wasnt going back into the White House by that time.

When any leader tells his base to go and do a thing he or she should be held responsible for what those people do regardless of whether they participate or not. Trump was a fool for even allowing such a lie to last long enough to allow such an outcome to be made possible.

The problem wasnt that Trump believed voter fraud had taken place or that the election was stolen. It was that he kept feeding or at the very least refused to deny the idea that via some means he could retake or stay in the White House.

Personally January 6th wouldn't have happened if he had simply put those ideas to bed rather than try to channel them for increased support until he ran again in 2024.

When he was sworn into office on January 20th 2017 he made an oath to defend the Constitution of the United States from all threats. But he told his base of supports to go and stop the verification of a democratically elected president. The fact he didn't take part holds no weight here at all. He was recorded telling them to go and stop that.

Can I see this recording? Also how literal is it? Did he say openly say to storm the White House? or was it an open ended statement to his supporters that by 'protesting' outside the Capitol they could hopefully 'stop the steal' and you are just choosing to selectively view that as an invitation to storm the building?

I ask all of this because if you want people to listen to you when you make statements like that providing citations and showing what they mean within context only ever helps a logical argument.

I'm just happy most of them had the good sense to just mill about the place taking photos and recording videos so the law can find them later.

I am also glad that nothing further happened it could have been far worse for any other number of reasons.

 

[WolfBear]

It would depend heavily on the exact circumstances of the case. Bush vs Gore didn't end the existence of the US government, after all. And the SC arguably should have been more involved in this election than it was, by doing stuff like smacking down the Pennsylvania SC's meddling in election procedures in a flatly illegitimate manner (short version is the SC struck down parts of a voting regulation bill that set a deadline for mail in ballots to be received, but demanded the rest of the law stay in place, even though the law explicitly stated that if anyone one provision was struck down, the entire law would stop applying).

However, outside of that sort of thing, there's no real legal grounds for the SC to rule on anything or overturn anything, particularly after the state certifies the results. Control of election procedures and practices was vested in the state legislatures for a reason, and the federal government has no right to micromanage them (this is, among other reasons, why the democrat's "voting rights" bill should not be passed even if it was totally benign, which it is not).

Must courts obey legislatures' command in regards to the severability of a statute? In other words, if a statute explicitly states that its parts cannot be severed, and one part is found unconstitutional, then courts have to strike down the entire statute?

 

[WolfBear]

That I wont deny at all although I personally blame the 'Q's and Trump feeding their minds with the belief that somehow he could still hold the presidentcy for the main reason the belief held on past the electors having met. It doesnt matter of the election was stolen or not every last one of them should have realized Trump wasnt going back into the White House by that time.

I actually heard a QAnon conspiracy theory that Donald Trump is still in the White House but got facial surgery to make himself look like Joe Biden while the real Joe Biden is rotting in a federal jail somewhere!

 

[Bacle]

Nor should they as such a thing would be clearly a bullshit story. Trump lost in 2020. I don't recall by how much but it was a sizable gap. If we overturned the outcome and kept Trump in office we may just come out and say that we no longer live in a democratic republic. I'm not sure what we would be under but it sure wouldn't be a nation by the people for the people.

We know Biden is in the White House now; that doesn't mean Trump lost.

There are enough dodgy ballots, missing paper-trails, and denied software credential's to make it impossible to ferret out that actual vote counts, and stuff like SCOTUS first refusing to rule on election law cases before the election, then declaring the issue moot afterwards...maybe Biden won legitly, but the Dems have fought audits so hard that I doubt it.

If Dems had actually won legitly, they'd welcome the electoral audits people have done and demanded.