...because we don't want to see a genocide take place.
Israel 🇮🇱 State of Israel Thread
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King Arts
Well-known member
It won't though. And why do we care about a genocide here, but don't care about random genocides in Africa?
I do, as for why are government is a little moot on that idea...mostly a matter of not wanting to stick a hand into a situation where we KNOW it's gonna get STUPID quick. In the case of Israel, there are borders and states that are generally stable where a random ethnic cleansing doesn't happen every day that ends in 'y'.
Exactly.If Jesus do not lived,died and ressurected there,there would be no reasons to care.And now we should care about safety of pilgrims and christians,not what one pagans did to others.
Nobody made us world policeman.
History Learner
Well-known member
This should be the default take, and should be reflected in our foreign policy. The fact we've given them $150 Billion in direct aid alone is enough to give us a stake in the game, but even beyond that people simply aren't given a choice: For example, did you know you have to sign a loyalty oath to Israel in many professions? We don't even require an oath to the United States, but we do for Israel and I challenge anyone to explain that to me in a rational way.
Dude, Bacle has been kicked off the thread, so it's a bit uncouth for you to keep your side of the argument going when he can't respond to you.
The Black ethno-state for former black slaves exists, it's called Liberia.
I'm not Bacle, and cannot see into his mind, but sometimes a double-standard is a reflection of an underlying single standard that the person holding it does not wish to admit to - or often, isn't fully conscious of.
Don't expect everyone to always be 100% consistent in their beliefs. People are fallible, and are hopefully also learning and growing. Sometimes rethinking old positions as needed, sometimes neglecting to.
Apparently you don't do all that much reading either.
I fully admit to only reading this opening shot before responding to it, and that I didn't bother reading further since I know it would be a waste of time.
If it is true,then USA are more fucked then i thought.I knew,that Izrael own it,but that kind of oath is something else.
Althought i dunno how long USA under Biden would be useful asset for Izrael to own.
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Not even trying to hide it anymore, are they?
It's not so much "loyalty to Israel" as never to boycott Israel... but yeah. Rather openly saying that the needs of another country are more important to them than their own.
This seems to be the conservative version of the way American liberals think that black people should be freely allowed to burn down American cities anytime they get unhappy about anything... because holding them accountable to the normal laws of civilization would be racist.
Terthna
Professional Lurker
Because unlike the genocides in Africa, it's one we'd be directly responsible for. Before the end of World War 2, anti-Jewish sentament was deeply ingrained into western culture, to the point where it took seeing something as horrific as Auschwitz to convince people that treating the Jews like crap might be wrong. But even then, that only convinced the elites of our society that we needed to get rid of the Jews in a more "humane" manner; which led to them trying to create a country in the Middle East for them to all live in. We all know how that turned out; and ever since, western civilization has been tied to Israel in a way that we cannot break without condoning the slaughter of Jews that would inevitably come afterwards.
It is...funny how you do not knew history.
Jews never were treated worst then any other minority.In fact,they were treated better.Try be real pagan after,let say 1100AC.
Try be catholic in England or Norwegia after luder revolution.Try be witch in any christian country without Inquisition.
Only country when they really was massacred was Moscow during Ivan terrible reign,but he massacred many others.
Sentiments ? anti catholics sentiments in protestan countries were as bad or worst.Germans genocided Herero on Namibia before WW1,turks armenians during WW2 - and nobody cared then,just like nobody care now.
Izrael was created ,becouse Sralin wonted so,not becouse sense of quilt.
Polish goverment send Karski to inform Anglosas about Holocaust,he even personally said that to FDR.FDR stopped him and start taking about horses.Nobody except polish goverment cared about murdered jews then.
Western cyvilisation is made from greek philosophy,roman law and christian morality.Jews are not related in any manner to us.If they prosper,we do not be better,if they suffer,we do not get worst.
Only thing tied to jews is USA,becouse they own poor state.
Jews have a lot of H bombs to defend themselves,and their friend Putin,Besides if we do not helped christians in Iraq,why we should help jews?
History Learner
Well-known member
Why? Answer me that, with evidence, not base-less assertions. Explain to me why American blood and treasure is somehow obligated to be given to Israel.
Is it really that ridiculous?
Lets compare a hypothetical.
If few organizations and government employees in Japan were to boycott Taiwan over not surrendering to China and drag said organization's business decisions into it...
Do you think the government would just shrug at it?
Yeah, i would not be so sure about that. Governments are kinda sensitive about their international alliances, and generally aren't too happy about their employees and contractors openly trying to screw with their allies. Random minor institutions are not entitled to run their own foreign policy, its not that crazy to ask them to promise not to try.
The aid issue is definitely more reasonable to bring up, a lot of that is hidden subsidy to defense industry (most of that aid has to be spent shopping in USA), some is also cooperative programs for technological developments from which USA gets nice toys (Iron Dome), so there is a good non-ideological argument to at least rationalize that stuff and label is as what it is.
On the other hand, both the pro-Israel and more hilariously, vehemently anti-Israel side observers do agree that at least some of that military cooperation is guided by US self-interest (in the latter case they mean US self-interest as a bad thing of course), like here:
Iron Dome Funding: Don't Be Deceived US Aid to Israel Is Not About Saving Lives - Antiwar.com Original
Battles in the US Congress that erupted again this week, holding up an extra $1bn in military funding for Israel, underscored just how divorced from - Jonathan Cook for Antiwar.com Original
original.antiwar.com
Seriously, if someone didn't know better they may think it was written by AIPAC.
TBH the right to self determination and concept of nation-states specifically exist to solve this kind of problems. And it is a timeless kind of problems - namely, multiculturalism not working. Its pretty common, and the most obvious solution is have random populations and subcultures that don't see eye to eye with others within the same state split off into their own, so that they can practice their own government, laws and ways, instead of trying to make compromises that will inevitably keep one or both group unhappy forever.
Speak for yourself.
OK I agree that's a valid point. Blocking SJW Entryism is a different matter entirely from dictating people's personal choices.
I wonder though whether such promises mean much to the people making them.
But... but... if those hardworking and productive people are allowed to go off and have their own country, we won't be able to keep exploiting them through taxation! That's not faaair! They must be forced to stay under our government so we can keep on squeezing them!
/sarcasm
Is it really that ridiculous?
Lets compare a hypothetical.
If few organizations and government employees in Japan were to boycott Taiwan over not surrendering to China and drag said organization's business decisions into it...
Do you think the government would just shrug at it?
Yeah, i would not be so sure about that. Governments are kinda sensitive about their international alliances, and generally aren't too happy about their employees and contractors openly trying to screw with their allies. Random minor institutions are not entitled to run their own foreign policy, its not that crazy to ask them to promise not to try.
The aid issue is definitely more reasonable to bring up, a lot of that is hidden subsidy to defense industry (most of that aid has to be spent shopping in USA), some is also cooperative programs for technological developments from which USA gets nice toys (Iron Dome), so there is a good non-ideological argument to at least rationalize that stuff and label is as what it is.
On the other hand, both the pro-Israel and more hilariously, vehemently anti-Israel side observers do agree that at least some of that military cooperation is guided by US self-interest (in the latter case they mean US self-interest as a bad thing of course), like here:
Iron Dome Funding: Don't Be Deceived US Aid to Israel Is Not About Saving Lives - Antiwar.com Original
Battles in the US Congress that erupted again this week, holding up an extra $1bn in military funding for Israel, underscored just how divorced from - Jonathan Cook for Antiwar.com Original
Seriously, if someone didn't know better they may think it was written by AIPAC.
TBH the right to self determination and concept of nation-states specifically exist to solve this kind of problems. And it is a timeless kind of problems - namely, multiculturalism not working. Its pretty common, and the most obvious solution is have random populations and subcultures that don't see eye to eye with others within the same state split off into their own, so that they can practice their own government, laws and ways, instead of trying to make compromises that will inevitably keep one or both group unhappy forever.
1.Bad example.Japan need computer parts from Taiwan,and if China get island Japan would be next.For them supporting Taiwan is matter of life and death,and Taiwan could not defend itself.
Jzrael could burn entire Middle East,so they are safe.And there is nothing there important for USA,so USA have no reason to fight there.
Moreover,even if Izrael ceased to exist,USA would be not hurt by that.
All in all - USA could have reason to fight for Taiwan,Korea,Japan,maybe even Poland/unless they sold us to Moscow again/,but not for Izrael.
If Jesus do not lived there,there would be no reason to think of that place at all.
2.But western politics in 1945 still do not cared about Holocaust.Only reason why state could be made/except mossad terrorists and Jordania help/ was Sralin support.Which he did probably to mess with England.
And jews in Europe traditionally was used by goverments as useful agents.
Bear Ribs
Well-known member
Israel provides a pretty wide range of benefits to the US.
Trade: Israel/US trade is around 10 billion a year. No, that's not completely staggering, I mean the UK trade is about 45 billion for the same time period. OTOH, the UK has about seven and a half times Israel's population too, a much worse ratio. Per person and for its economic size, Israel does a lot of business with the US and that means profits for US companies.
Research: Israel does a lot of research, in fact on a per-capita basis, Israel has about half again as many scientists and technicians as the US does. This translates into Israel producing a lot of useful inventions. Israel's at the bleeding edge of medical research, f'rex, top of the planet there, and their inventions benefit all Americans as well, often disproportionately to Israel itself. Israel also has some of the absolute top water and agricultural technologies and research divisions, both in areas of conserving water and things like their cutting-edge desalination plants.
Military: Israel sends troops, supplies, and support to America's military. No, the numbers, again, aren't staggering because Israel has a population smaller than Los Angeles County, but they do send significant forces for their size to support US operations. Israel also provides a rare area in the Middle East that's relatively safe and stable for the US to store supplies in. Israeli military inventions, such as Iron Dome, also wind up in American hands for greater benefits.
And the amount of blood and treasure spent on Israel is pretty grossly overestimated. Much of the money sent to Israel isn't actually sent to them, it's thinly disguised handouts to American weapons manufacturers, as Israel is obligated to spend much of the funds the US sends there. Those companies get more business and get to see their weaponry in actual action which keeps them sharp and helps them spot deficiencies or areas for improvement, an opportunity that might not exist without Israel. This is also critical because a weapons company needs to do a certain amount of business every year in order to stay open, real life isn't an RTS where you can just build a factory and leave it there until you want to spit out some more tanks. If you don't constantly build tanks, the company can't stay open, the employees go find other jobs, and then when you get into a pinch you can't actually build any tanks when you need them because nobody's left who knows how to build a tank anymore. It's thus critical to have somebody, anybody, buying a certain number of each weapon per year to keep the factories healthy, and Israel is an extremely convenient partner for that.
Other chunks of cash are research grants which, as noted, tremendously benefit Americans. As far as blood, there just aren't that many Americans who died in, say, the Yom Kippur war. Compared with, say, Afghanistan, Israel generally fights their own battles and spills Israeli blood, not American, defending their borders, but also send Israelis to die in American wars, such as, again, Afghanistan. The cost-benefit leans pretty heavily to the US getting a lot out of their relationship with Israel.
Regarding the "blood and treasure spent on Israel" talking-point... I wonder if it's really a reference the idea - common in some circles - that the American military intervention in Iraq was for Israel's benefit.
Or for that matter, American military presence in Syria. Some people think it's all for the Israelis.
Or for that matter, American military presence in Syria. Some people think it's all for the Israelis.
A good look at the Use it or things go wrong, after World War 2, during Korea, things were like that. Truman had civilian plants building tanks long after they stopped and they were not used to it and were turning out a bad product
Something I wonder here - if Something Happened and the US military lost a big pile of - well lets say Abrams tanks - how quickly could they have replacements built?