Israel 🇮🇱 State of Israel Thread

[WolfBear]

My point exactly, it's just exact replication of the past western immigration problems. There is absolutely nothing making the immigrants assimilate except for a suggestion to do so, and if they don't, oh well, your problem.

Why would they do that? I'd suspect those are outright economic immigrants and have absolutely zero interest in Rwanda, which is why no economic migrants want to go there.
As many American, Japanese and Chinese tourists demonstrate, Philippines apparently are a nice enough place to be in if you have money.

Well, Mizrahi Jews have assimilated pretty well in Israel in spite of their low socioeconomic status, no? Ditto for Mexicans here in the US. Here, the common Israeli Jewish culture will serve as an assimilating glue for them.

The logic in having them go to Rwanda is that the very same purchasing power goes a lot further there since stuff is much cheaper there. So, if you're a Filipino and you've saved up a lot of money by working in Israel for 20 years or whatever, you could subsequently enjoy a very nice retirement in Rwanda at five-star hotels and whatnot.

 

[Marduk]

Well, Mizrahi Jews have assimilated pretty well in Israel in spite of their low socioeconomic status, no? Ditto for Mexicans here in the US. Here, the common Israeli Jewish culture will serve as an assimilating glue for them.

More for the former than the latter, for the very obvious reason of Israel being a Jewish state and them being Jews, with both sides agreeing on that with all implications. Likewise Poland has no problems with returning descendants of Poles deported to Siberia by Stalin.
We are talking about people who are basically 90+% assimilated to begin with, including the hard parts, of course it's easy.

The logic in having them go to Rwanda is that the very same purchasing power goes a lot further there since stuff is much cheaper there. So, if you're a Filipino and you've saved up a lot of money by working in Israel for 20 years or whatever, you could subsequently enjoy a very nice retirement in Rwanda at five-star hotels and whatnot.

But the difference between Philippines and Rwanda is not nearly as high as between UK or Israel and Rwanda, while in Philippines they have the extra benefit of not having to deal with foreign customs and languages that they may not want to bother with.

 

[WolfBear]

More for the former than the latter, for the very obvious reason of Israel being a Jewish state and them being Jews, with both sides agreeing on that with all implications. Likewise Poland has no problems with returning descendants of Poles deported to Siberia by Stalin.
We are talking about people who are basically 90+% assimilated to begin with, including the hard parts, of course it's easy.

But the difference between Philippines and Rwanda is not nearly as high as between UK or Israel and Rwanda, while in Philippines they have the extra benefit of not having to deal with foreign customs and languages that they may not want to bother with.

Would Poland be willing to have open borders for Jews of former PLC descent? Or would the cultural gap there be too wide for Poles?

It depends on where purchasing power would go more--in the Philippines or in Rwanda. And Yes, culture does come into play here, so that will also have to be weighed in these calculations.

 

[Marduk]

Would Poland be willing to have open borders for Jews of former PLC descent? Or would the cultural gap there be too wide for Poles?

If they can provide documentation of Polish descent, they are just like any other repatriated Poles, and get a fast track to citizenship.

It depends on where purchasing power would go more--in the Philippines or in Rwanda. And Yes, culture does come into play here, so that will also have to be weighed in these calculations.

Well, yeah, that's why with more moderate wealth differences between the countries, the desire to overcome cultural gaps gets much smaller.

 

[WolfBear]

If they can provide documentation of Polish descent, they are just like any other repatriated Poles, and get a fast track to citizenship.

Well, yeah, that's why with more moderate wealth differences between the countries, the desire to overcome cultural gaps gets much smaller.

Kind of hard to do if their ancestors lived in the PLC until the late 1700s and were then a part of the Russian Empire for 100+ years, after which point they moved to the West. Really, Poland should just have open borders for all Ashkenazi Jews to make the whole process simpler. A huge part of them were originally of PLC descent, so such an approach actually does make sense. Really, look at this European Jewish percentage map for 1900; the most heavily Jewish areas are mostly former PLC areas, or adjacent areas to which former PLC Jews had moved to over the previous couple of centuries:

I wouldn't mind grabbing some Polish citizenship for myself (my Jewish grandfather was born in Vinnytsia, a part of the former PLC, and my Jewish great-grandfather (his father) was born in or around Sarny, also a part of the former PLC) if only I myself actually knew how to speak Polish.

Yep.

 

[Marduk]

Kind of hard to do if their ancestors lived in the PLC until the late 1700s and were then a part of the Russian Empire for 100+ years, after which point they moved to the West. Really, Poland should just have open borders for all Ashkenazi Jews to make the whole process simpler. A huge part of them were originally of PLC descent, so such an approach actually does make sense. Really, look at this European Jewish percentage map for 1900; the most heavily Jewish areas are mostly former PLC areas, or adjacent areas to which former PLC Jews had moved to over the previous couple of centuries:

The issue here is as you can see on the map, a lot of these areas are not currently part of Poland, and many of the people living there were not necessarily culturally Polish to begin with.

I wouldn't mind grabbing some Polish citizenship for myself (my Jewish grandfather was born in Vinnytsia, a part of the former PLC, and my Jewish great-grandfather (his father) was born in or around Sarny, also a part of the former PLC) if only I myself actually knew how to speak Polish.

Yep.

As Sarny (unlike Vinnytsia) was part of Poland between 1921 and 1939, if you can document in any way that this great-grandfather lived there around that time you may qualify for some sort of ctitzenship track or special immigration status. Knowing the language is secondary in such cases.

 

[WolfBear]

The issue here is as you can see on the map, a lot of these areas are not currently part of Poland, and many of the people living there were not necessarily culturally Polish to begin with.

As Sarny (unlike Vinnytsia) was part of Poland between 1921 and 1939, if you can document in any way that this great-grandfather lived there around that time you may qualify for some sort of ctitzenship track or special immigration status. Knowing the language is secondary in such cases.

TBF, I suspect that most Polish Jews were not culturally Polish right before the start of the Holocaust either.

Well, my Jewish great-grandfather was born there, but he got forcibly kidnapped by the Bolsheviks at gunpoint during the 1919-1921 Polish-Soviet War. Yes, seriously. He had to leave his parents and siblings behind in Sarny. The Bolsheviks took him hostage because he was literate and unmarried and they felt that they needed someone of his skills. That's what my dad told me, and that's what my dad heard from him himself back when he was alive (he died at age 88 in 1985). So, Yeah, after the Polish-Soviet War, he ended up in Central Ukraine, where he met and married my Jewish great-grandmother and after which point they had two sons. Ironically, him not staying in Sarny significantly increased his odds of surviving the Holocaust since he and his family were able to get successfully evacuated from Vinnytsia during Operation Barbarossa, thus saving their lives. They initially went to Stalingrad and later on to Samara (Kuybyshev) Oblast after the Nazis were approaching Stalingrad. Most of his family who stayed behind in Sarny got murdered in the Holocaust. Only a brother who moved to Israel in the 1920s, another brother who successfully fled to the Soviet interior in 1941, a cousin who successfully fled to the Soviet interior in 1941, and a nephew who successfully fled to the Soviet interior in 1941 survived. Though he also had a sister who moved to Argentina in I think the 1930s and who died in childbirth giving birth to her first child. Her son survived and later moved to Israel, where he apparently became a semi-famous architect.

As for proof, I'll see if I can find anything, though my last name is very rare and anyone who has even a basic knowledge of it will know that it originates from the Volhynia area. It's obvious enough by the fact that a lot of Jewish people with my last name were murdered in the Holocaust in the Volhynia area.

 

[WolfBear]

So, Yeah, back to my Jewish great-grandfather. While he was certainly born in or around Sarny to my knowledge, I don't know if he was ever actually officially a citizen of the Second Polish Republic. I also don't know if that makes a crucial difference here or if place of birth is much more important here.

EDIT: Looks like I don't qualify since AFAIK my great-grandfather did not live in Poland after 1920:

https://polaron.com.au/services/eu-services/eu-citizenship/polish-citizenship/polish-citizenship-through-descent/#:~:text=Most%20people%20whose%20parents%2C%20grandparents,resided%20there%20after%201920%3B%20or

 

[Marduk]

TBF, I suspect that most Polish Jews were not culturally Polish right before the start of the Holocaust either.

At the days of PLC, probably true. At the days of Second Polish Republic, it's hard to say, a lot of those remaining in that territory could be considered more or less culturally Polish.

EDIT: Looks like I don't qualify since AFAIK my great-grandfather did not live in Poland after 1920:

In that case, yeah.

 

[WolfBear]

At the days of PLC, probably true. At the days of Second Polish Republic, it's hard to say, a lot of those remaining in that territory could be considered more or less culturally Polish.

In that case, yeah.

Even the devout Ultra-Orthodox Jews?

 

[Marduk]

Even the devout Ultra-Orthodox Jews?

Those, from what i've heard of them, most likely were the least assimilated, but not a significant fraction of the population, certainly nowhere near as common as they are in Israel now.

 

[WolfBear]

Those, from what i've heard of them, most likely were the least assimilated, but not a significant fraction of the population, certainly nowhere near as common as they are in Israel now.

Were the regular Orthodox Jews much more assimilated than the Ultra-Orthodox Jews were?

FWIW, it might be worth checking out Charles Sarolea's 1922 book about Poland:

Letters on Polish affairs : Sarolea, Charles, 1870-1953 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

31

archive.org

In this book, he talks a bit about the Polish Jews, if I recall correctly.

 

[Marduk]

Were the regular Orthodox Jews much more assimilated than the Ultra-Orthodox Jews were?

I'd guess so, at least to the degree of most of the younger ones speaking Polish.

 

[WolfBear]

I'd guess so, at least to the degree of most of the younger ones speaking Polish.

Interesting. Well, FWIW, I think that any or almost any Ashkenazi Jew who wants to move to Poland can become successfully Polonized. They're certainly not lacking in human capital, after all.

 

[WolfBear]

@GoldRanger I have a question for you: If someone (a quarter-Jew; with only one Jewish grandfather) is an Israeli citizen who lives abroad, has children abroad, and then gives these children up for adoption, would these children actually be eligible to inherit Israeli citizenship by virtue of their biological connection to an Israeli citizen? They won't be able to claim Israeli citizenship on their own merits since they would only be 1/8ths Jewish.

 

[WolfBear]

 

[GoldRanger]

@GoldRanger I have a question for you: If someone (a quarter-Jew; with only one Jewish grandfather) is an Israeli citizen who lives abroad, has children abroad, and then gives these children up for adoption, would these children actually be eligible to inherit Israeli citizenship by virtue of their biological connection to an Israeli citizen? They won't be able to claim Israeli citizenship on their own merits since they would only be 1/8ths Jewish.

I'm pretty sure that yes, they would.

 

[WolfBear]

I'm pretty sure that yes, they would.

Interesting. Thank you. Useful information for me to keep in mind in the future. Though doesn't hurt to double-check with an actual Israeli lawyer, I suppose, if I could actually contact one for free, that is.

 

[WolfBear]

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2022-07-07/ty-article/.premium/israel-mistakenly-deported-a-russian-tourist-to-turkey-in-violation-of-court-order/00000181-d8ca-d740-af99-ffcbe08c0000

 

[WolfBear]

You know, one of the things that I enjoyed the most about Israel was its delicious foods. I still sometimes buy foods such as hummus and falafel at Costco here in the US:

I really wish that cheap Middle Eastern food was more widespread here in the US. Though maybe it is and I simply don't know it. How's the food over in Israel nowadays?