Star Trek Star Trek Picard Discussion Thread

Well the Picard critics and RLM fans should be happy with this announcement.



And for many of course... RLM reviews are how they've watched the series anyhow.

I've well looked at some of the clips from this YouTube Channel.


It looks like they really have butchered Star Trek-to be more "gritty" and "serious".

TBH, it looks like this show is trying to appeal to people who would have hated Trek in the sixties or nineties.

Some of those clips are super out of context, and don't accurately paint a picture of what the show is.

And I'm not entirely sure that this is intentional, but Star Trek: Picard is literally the story of Picard getting over the fact that reality ensued for the Federation and meant he couldn't just use protagonist centric morality to get his way, and then learning that you can still get the Federation to do good things... you just need to actually provide more of an argument than "muh/Starfleet/Federation ideals".

Reality?

How so?

As in, "da world is dark and gritty, and da federation is unicorns and rainbows"

Like bad fanfiction reality?

Dude, the Federation isn't just set in a different time, human beings have changed. I get that's difficult for some people to relate to, but that is the world of Star Trek.

Its a show that revels in violence, graphic death, and vice.

I mean-its proper for the cynical age in which we live. But its not Trekkian.

Lord Invictus said:

As in, "da world is dark and gritty, and da federation is unicorns and rainbows"

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No, as in "the Federation has legitimate grievances with the Romulans, and expecting people to A) support helping them without reservation and B) continue to support helping them after a massive disaster wipes out resources allocated for that is stupid."

Like, the main deviation from the absurd TNG S1-S2 level of idealization for the Federation is the mere recognition that there are political and popularity limits to large scale action.

Its a show that revels in violence, graphic death, and vice.

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Not really. Aside from Icheb's death scene and maybe Maddox's death, there hasn't been any real fucked up shit. In terms of violence, there's a few fight scenes, but the heroes don't go around killing people just 'cuz (Seven has pretty good reasons for doing what she does, and aside from maybe the one senator, Elnor only kills people trying to kill other people). As for vice, the only major character who is indulging in vices is basically doing the same shit as Damar in season 7 of DS9, just with Orion weed on top of booze... which goes away after a few episodes.

bullethead said:

No, as in "the Federation has legitimate grievances with the Romulans, and expecting people to A) support helping them without reservation and B) continue to support helping them after a massive disaster wipes out resources allocated for that is stupid."

Like, the main deviation from the absurd TNG S1-S2 level of idealization for the Federation is the mere recognition that there are political and popularity limits to large scale action.


Not really. Aside from Icheb's death scene and maybe Maddox's death, there hasn't been any real fucked up shit. In terms of violence, there's a few fight scenes, but the heroes don't go around killing people just 'cuz (Seven has pretty good reasons for doing what she does, and aside from maybe the one senator, Elnor only kills people trying to kill other people). As for vice, the only major character who is indulging in vices is basically doing the same shit as Damar in season 7 of DS9, just with Orion weed on top of booze... which goes away after a few episodes.

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A. That's the Federation ethos though, compassion and aid. Even to one's enemies. B. That's the point. Compassion and great altruism. The Federation citizenry is...supposed to believe that.

Seven was not and never an action girl. That is one of the dumbest fucking changes ever made.

Lord Invictus said:

A. That's the Federation ethos though, compassion and aid. Even to one's enemies. B. That's the point. Compassion and great altruism. The Federation citizenry is...supposed to believe that.

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Yeah, sure, but unless you brainwash everyone into believing those ideals, you're not going to have unlimited amounts of that available, especially not for a long term project that's literally interstellar in scale.

And, as an aside, I'm kinda glad the show highlighted political dissent towards helping the Romulans. One of the unintentionally creepy things about Berman era Trek was that it made ideological diversity seem potentially non-existent, especially at upper echelons of political decision making. In it's own way, the absence of large scale movements within the Federation itself made it seem kind of dystopian in a potentially Brave New World kind of way.

Seven was not and never an action girl. That is one of the dumbest fucking changes ever made.

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Ironically enough, Seven becoming an action girl makes total sense due to A) the Federation ethos, and B) Seven's guiding examples of said ethos being Janeway and the Voyager crew, who'd stick their damn nose into all sorts of problems trying to help.

Lord Invictus said:

A. That's the Federation ethos though, compassion and aid. Even to one's enemies. B. That's the point. Compassion and great altruism. The Federation citizenry is...supposed to believe that.

Seven was not and never an action girl. That is one of the dumbest fucking changes ever made.

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That assumes the Federation of 2385 or so is the same Federation of 2364 or so. I think it is plausible that a lot changed in the 2370s and 2380s to make the Federation different, though.

The Federation won the Dominion War, but it came at a very high cost. We’d already seen the Federation ethos slipping in the 2370s, where the Cardassian treaty spurred both the Maquis, but Federation efforts to resettle people to please other star nations started as early as 2367. DS9 did a lot to show that the Federation had changed from Picard’s heyday, even before the Dominion War. Just look at Quark’s, and how rapidly latinum as a currency is accepted as normal by Starfleet personnel.

In the Dominion War, the fleet lost, conservatively, hundreds of starships, and easily hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of lives. It also saw the Klingon betrayal snd realignment, issues with the Bajorans going their own way, and other hostile powers like the Breen taking advantage.

That’s enough to make any civilization think of retrenchment and be paranoid. It’s certainly going to change the views of a lot of the survivors, and absolutely breed a certain CYA attitude in the fleet. Certainly a “why are these folks worth dying for?” mentality is plausible. Again, we saw a lot of that in @ last and this century.

Then there’s VOYAGER, and god knows how much money the Federation poured into getting her home. I can easily see people in the Fleet and Federation leadership saying it was not a logical use of resources. Especially when the Fleet was gutted and lots of Federation worlds devastated by the Dominion War.

We also don’t know how the Dominion War peace played out, and how addressing the ruins of Cardassia influenced Federation politics.

By 2386, I think it’s plausible that Starfleet would rather cut its losses after the attack on Mars than put even more resources into play. Especially if Picard’s plan to use reserve or mothballed ships was judged to risk depleting the Star Fleet too badly.

It’s not the Star Fleet we grew up with, but it is human.

bullethead said:

Yeah, sure, but unless you brainwash everyone into believing those ideals, you're not going to have unlimited amounts of that available, especially not for a long term project that's literally interstellar in scale.

And, as an aside, I'm kinda glad the show highlighted political dissent towards helping the Romulans. One of the unintentionally creepy things about Berman era Trek was that it made ideological diversity seem potentially non-existent, especially at upper echelons of political decision making. In it's own way, the absence of large scale movements within the Federation itself made it seem kind of dystopian in a potentially Brave New World kind of way.

Ironically enough, Seven becoming an action girl makes total sense due to A) the Federation ethos, and B) Seven's guiding examples of said ethos being Janeway and the Voyager crew, who'd stick their damn nose into all sorts of problems trying to help.

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As a post scarcity near utopian society isn't going to have much in the way of substantial ideological divisions. Like, think about the nature of politics and why it is concentrated economics. The Federation is also too vast and too diverse for...movements of substance to be interstellar.

Fuck what? Seven's strength(beyond nanoprobes) is her knowledge of science and tech. She has an insane amount of information in her head, and greater computational ability(among other superhuman talents) due to being former Borg. And no-Voyager didn't stick its nose into problems, have you seen Thirty Days?

Lord Invictus said:

Fuck what? Seven's strength(beyond nanoprobes) is her knowledge of science and tech. She has an insane amount of information in her head, and greater computational ability(among other superhuman talents) due to being former Borg. And no-Voyager didn't stick its nose into problems, have you seen Thirty Days?

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You do know that the Fenris Rangers also do stuff like set up planetary shields, right? That's how Vashti got their (used) system. Who's to say Seven wasn't involved in that?

Also, Voyager did get itself involved in tons of shit. There was Innocence, Living Witness (the actual events, not the Warship Voyager stuff), Emanations, Nightingale, Prey, Prototype, Alliances, Death Wish, The Thaw, False Profits, Remember, Distant Origin, Flesh and Blood, and Homestead, to pick a few.

Lord Invictus said:

As a post scarcity near utopian society isn't going to have much in the way of substantial ideological divisions. Like, think about the nature of politics and why it is concentrated economics. The Federation is also too vast and too diverse for...movements of substance to be interstellar.

Fuck what? Seven's strength(beyond nanoprobes) is her knowledge of science and tech. She has an insane amount of information in her head, and greater computational ability(among other superhuman talents) due to being former Borg.

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The Federation may be post scarcity (which is questionable given the extensive resources needed to supply things like replicators), but that doesn’t mean the end of either economics, differences in viewpoints, or disagreements about the aims to persue. Certainly the Feds are not, with a very few exceptions (Ira Graves, the Soongs and now Picard) able to prevent death. Nor do they seem to be philosophical or Klingon about it. You also have serious ideological clashes between the Vulcan logic, which inherently leads to communitarian views (the needs of the many), vs the more Western human individualism. Then there are the different views of the thousands of different cultures that make up the Federation. That’s just asking for either serious disagreements or even a Poland-style paralysis.

Then we throw in the Prime Directive, which is the perfect excuse to not act and let a culture die if someone is so inclined. Federation do-gooderism could easily run into that wall, especially if someone who does not want to act points to Mars as justification for “obeying thePrime Directive” and not saving the Romulans or cleaning up the mess in the wake of their implosion.

Seven, or perhaps Annika is proper now, has great strengths (and a lot of her Borg augmentation is physical strength as well), but she is also human again. And vengeance is human, especially when vengeance is the only justice one can ever get. She would not be the first person to want the satisfaction of the kill.

Now the fight with Narissa was more contrived. Elnor should have been the one to take her head off. Yes, there’s history between Seven, Hugh and the ex-Borg, but vengeance is Elnor’s. Also, they misused the Borg cube. It should have been the xBs as the last stand, not LA SIRENA, holding the line for Riker to get there.

bullethead said:

You do know that the Fenris Rangers also do stuff like set up planetary shields, right? That's how Vashti got their (used) system. Who's to say Seven wasn't involved in that?

Also, Voyager did get itself involved in tons of shit. There was Innocence, Living Witness (the actual events, not the Warship Voyager stuff), Emanations, Nightingale, Prey, Prototype, Alliances, Death Wish, The Thaw, False Profits, Remember, Distant Origin, Flesh and Blood, and Homestead, to pick a few.

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I have no idea what anything in your first paragraph is.

They got drawn into a lot of shit. They didn't go around sticking their nose in other people's business.

Living Witness-drawn into it and caught in the middle
Nightingale-caught in the middle.
Prey-very much caught in the middle
Death Wish-again got in between

Just about every episode you list has Voyager end up involved by accident or by diplomacy, suspicion and misunderstanding.

They did not go out of their way to provoke conflicts, they often found themselves dealing with conflicts around them.

Lord Invictus said:

I have no idea what anything in your first paragraph is.

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So... you haven't watched the series?

You do realize that this means that you have literally zero way to know if you're being fed a BS idea of what the show is, right?

Lord Invictus said:

Just about every episode you list has Voyager end up involved by accident or by diplomacy, suspicion and misunderstanding.

They did not go out of their way to provoke conflicts, they often found themselves dealing with conflicts around them.

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You know, for a ship that was trying to get home in less than 75 years and with zero support, they wound up dealing with a ton of stuff that was literally not their problem and got their shit kicked in a lot. It's honestly amazing that they didn't wind up dead considering the amount of times their shore leave stops result in them getting roped into some government scheme of one sort or another.

bullethead said:

So... you haven't watched the series?

You do realize that this means that you have literally zero way to know if you're being fed a BS idea of what the show is, right?

You know, for a ship that was trying to get home in less than 75 years and with zero support, they wound up dealing with a ton of stuff that was literally not their problem and got their shit kicked in a lot. It's honestly amazing that they didn't wind up dead considering the amount of times their shore leave stops result in them getting roped into some government scheme of one sort or another.

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I can make that judgement myself.

I mean, they did trade with aliens and what not without issue. That doesn’t make good drama though.

In most of the examples you list-voyager found itself in a crossfire or ended up angering one side because it was perceived they were supporting the other-Living Witness and Hope and Fear.

Or they ended up playing host to another conflict or resolution thereof. Death Wish and Alliances.

They are going through a whole quadrant filled with feuding empires, a menacing Borg collective, local cultures and hostile aliens. In the Think Tank-Kurros says most of the quadrant is some form of war.

Thus it makes sense for both IU and OOU reasons that Voyager finds itself enmeshed in conflict often.

Lord Invictus said:

Thus it makes sense for both IU and OOU reasons that Voyager finds itself enmeshed in conflict often.

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True. But then again, on a fair number of times, Voyager got enmeshed in something because they decided to go poking around or get involved in something that's not their business, not because they accidentally stumbled into something.

Almost every single trade deal gone wrong episode happened because, instead of just staying on the ship and trading with people remotely, or beaming the crew down to some deserted beach in the middle of nowhere for shore leave, they go wandering around in cities and meshing with the locals and get into all sorts of problems, often enough that they should know doing so is dangerous after the third or fourth time it happens.

False Prophets jump to mind as a very specific incident where they very even outright said the rules say they should not be meddling and had both no good reason to meddle and very good reason to be doing something else, but they did so anyway.

Counterpoint is an even better case, where they again take considerable risks by getting themselves involved in righting wrongs and helping random people for no gain.

Battlegrinder said:

True. But then again, on a fair number of times, Voyager got enmeshed in something because they decided to go poking around or get involved in something that's not their business, not because they accidentally stumbled into something.

Almost every single trade deal gone wrong episode happened because, instead of just staying on the ship and trading with people remotely, or beaming the crew down to some deserted beach in the middle of nowhere for shore leave, they go wandering around in cities and meshing with the locals and get into all sorts of problems, often enough that they should know doing so is dangerous after the third or fourth time it happens.

False Prophets jump to mind as a very specific incident where they very even outright said the rules say they should not be meddling and had both no good reason to meddle and very good reason to be doing something else, but they did so anyway.

Counterpoint is an even better case, where they again take considerable risks by getting themselves involved in righting wrongs and helping random people for no gain.

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With False Prophets the ferengi had already screwed the pooch by installing themselves as gods over a bronze age culture. Also given they came from the AQ-Voyager and janeway felt obligated to interfere. But then again a PD absolutist might disagree.

As for counterpoint-Janeway is not without a heart. And so assisting persecuted people is something they would do. Not to mention tense relations with the Devore were pretty much guaranteed given the Devore's attitude towards gaharey.

There was that incident where they got into trouble with a telepathic race over B'lanna's violent urges. Which given the cultural dissonance here-wasn't something to be easily avoided.

Which, as you note, people with a different interpretation of the Prime Directive would be displeased about.

The PD can be pretty evil a doctrine if you use it to justify the Pontius Pilate approach.

Lord Invictus said:

With False Prophets the ferengi had already screwed the pooch by installing themselves as gods over a bronze age culture. Also given they came from the AQ-Voyager and janeway felt obligated to interfere. But then again a PD absolutist might disagree.

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They're from the AQ, but that doesn't make them her problem. Particularly given that all things considered, they were not doing all that much harm.

But fine, let's say she feels she should stop them. Beam them up, throw them in the brig, and leave. None of this malarkey about saving the native religion that the ferengi have already abused and disrupted, pull them out before they cause more damage and then leave. Let the natives figure it out for themselves.

Voyager's problem wasn't always getting involved, it was getting involved and then making stupid decisions.

Lord Invictus said:

As for counterpoint-Janeway is not without a heart. And so assisting persecuted people is something they would do. Not to mention tense relations with the Devore were pretty much guaranteed given the Devore's attitude towards gaharey.

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Janway has an obligation to protect her crew and get them home safely. She does not have an obligation to stop and help every bunch of oppressed randos she stumbles across, particularly not with when doing so puts far more lives in danger.

I would argue she has a strong reason not to do so, since that just invites further involvement and meddling later down the road. After all, you stopped to help one ragteam bunch of refugees, why not stop for the next, and the next, and the next, and now you've taken a 75 year journey and turned it into a 200 year one.

Lord Invictus said:

There was that incident where they got into trouble with a telepathic race over B'lanna's violent urges. Which given the cultural dissonance here-wasn't something to be easily avoided.

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That wasn't a one-off. It happened in The Chute, Ex Post Facto, Fair Trade, and probably several others I've forgotten.

Janway has to know by, at the very latest, year 2 of this trip that sending people down to trade and meet the locals carries a non-zero risk of something happening. A risk that is not worthwhile, because gaining a little more information about a society that the federation won't ever meet again is not worth the risk of losing valuable personal the ship cannot afford to lose or replace.

And also, the incident you mention was easily avoided. Stay on the ship, negotiate your purchase via the comm, beam it up, and then leave. You can buy spare parts without having people wander around through the markets of a society who's legal system you do not understand.

Battlegrinder said:

They're from the AQ, but that doesn't make them her problem. Particularly given that all things considered, they were not doing all that much harm.

But fine, let's say she feels she should stop them. Beam them up, throw them in the brig, and leave. None of this malarkey about saving the native religion that the ferengi have already abused and disrupted, pull them out before they cause more damage and then leave. Let the natives figure it out for themselves.

Voyager's problem wasn't always getting involved, it was getting involved and then making stupid decisions.

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At that point, Voyager was trying to reverse the damage. A hard thing to do. I also think anti Ferengi prejudice came into it-"the ferengi ruined these people, so let's get them back on the right track" which isn't a sentiment limited to Voyager.

Battlegrinder said:

Janway has an obligation to protect her crew and get them home safely. She does not have an obligation to stop and help every random bunch of oppressed randos she stumbles across, particularly not with when doing so puts far more lives in danger. I would argue she has a strong reason not to do so, since that just invites further involvement and meddling later down the road. After all, you stopped to help one ragteam bunch of refugees, why not stop for the next, and the next, and the next, and now you've taken a 75 year journey and turned it into a 200 year one.

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I'd have to rewatch the episode to know how she took them on. If they were asking for asylum, then she would be duty bound to assist them. Compassion is as much a virtue to the Federation as not interference.

Battlegrinder said:

They're from the AQ, but that doesn't make them her problem. Particularly given that all things considered, they were not doing all that much harm.

But fine, let's say she feels she should stop them. Beam them up, throw them in the brig, and leave. None of this malarkey about saving the native religion that the ferengi have already abused and disrupted, pull them out before they cause more damage and then leave. Let the natives figure it out for themselves.

Voyager's problem wasn't always getting involved, it was getting involved and then making stupid decisions.



Janway has an obligation to protect her crew and get them home safely. She does not have an obligation to stop and help every bunch of oppressed randos she stumbles across, particularly not with when doing so puts far more lives in danger.

I would argue she has a strong reason not to do so, since that just invites further involvement and meddling later down the road. After all, you stopped to help one ragteam bunch of refugees, why not stop for the next, and the next, and the next, and now you've taken a 75 year journey and turned it into a 200 year one.



That wasn't a one-off. It happened in The Chute, Ex Post Facto, Fair Trade, and probably several others I've forgotten.

Janway has to know by, at the very latest, year 2 of this trip that sending people down to trade and meet the locals carries a non-zero risk of something happening. A risk that is not worthwhile, because gaining a little more information about a society that the federation won't ever meet again is not worth the risk of losing valuable personal the ship cannot afford to lose or replace.

And also, the incident you mention was easily avoided. Stay on the ship, negotiate your purchase via the comm, beam it up, and then leave. You can buy spare parts without having people wander around through the markets of a society who's legal system you do not understand.

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I'd have to check, I don't think that was the situation in The Chute.

The bolded part is not true. We know from Death Wish humans will be in the DQ in a century. Every bit of information is valuable. Also they were on shore leave, not just trading for dilithium. Janeway is doing her diligence as a starfleet officer to not only explore brave new worlds but also gain valuable intelligence on the delta quadrant.

Every bit of information Voyager gained, every contact, is helpful to the Federation. There isn't canon evidence for this per se-but its my fully committed head canon Janeway acted to ensure when they got home, they'd have shiploads of information. That's why she explored nebulae, made local contacts, and gained information.

The Federation will in a century or two's time run into these cultures again. And Janeway's intelligence will be very useful.

Lord Invictus said:

At that point, Voyager was trying to reverse the damage. A hard thing to do. I also think anti Ferengi prejudice came into it-"the ferengi ruined these people, so let's get them back on the right track" which isn't a sentiment limited to Voyager.

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"Hard thing to do" is underselling it. This would be like if Jesus was actually an alien, and the whole crucifixion and fading into the heavens thing was a result of other aliens coming in to get rid of him and fake his disappearance in order to "fix the damage".

Lord Invictus said:

I'd have to rewatch the episode to know how she took them on. If they were asking for asylum, then she would be duty bound to assist them. Compassion is as much a virtue to the Federation as not interference.

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There is a difference between charity in your daily life when it costs nothing but some of the time and money you have in abundance, and charity when you are unexpectedly dropped out in the middle of the siberian tundra or some other equally inhospitable environment with next to nothing. It is entirely reasonable to have a different set of expectations for what someone has a duty to do based on thier own circumstances.

Arguably, compassion would really only be a virtue in the DQ, precisely because doing so is hard and costly, but that's precisely why being compassionate is not considered a moral obligation.

Lord Invictus said:

I'd have to check, I don't think that was the situation in The Chute.

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It was. Tom and Harry were trading for whateverium on some planet, were accused of a crime, and got tossed in jail as a result.

Lord Invictus said:

The bolded part is not true. We know from Death Wish humans will be in the DQ in a century. Every bit of information is valuable. Also they were on shore leave, not just trading for dilithium. Janeway is doing her diligence as a starfleet officer to not only explore brave new worlds but also gain valuable intelligence on the delta quadrant.

Every bit of information Voyager gained, every contact, is helpful to the Federation. There isn't canon evidence for this per se-but its my fully committed head canon Janeway acted to ensure when they got home, they'd have shiploads of information. That's why she explored nebulae, made local contacts, and gained information.

The Federation will in a century or two's time run into these cultures again. And Janeway's intelligence will be very useful.

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A cursory knowledge of what a part of a culture was like 200 years ago is probably more likely to be detrimental to any future exploration than anything else. Imagine if you were going to try and negotiate with the US, and all you had to go on was what someone saw in a weeklong business trip to new york in 1820, and half of it was an account of them trying to get their partner out of the NYPD drunk tank.