Movies Starship Troopers: The bugs did nothing wrong

Honestly I think he just views miltarism or having a positive view of the military as fascism. He took one look at the idea that franchise would be tied to military service (which ironically enough is the most common rationale behind supporting the draft incidentally) and the glorification of the military through Rico's narration and decided it was fascist.
 
The issue with fascism is that not many people really know what it is these days. It is a very specific doctrine from a very specific time and place, although I doubt the name Giovanni Gentile means anything to Verhoven.

Goes to show how profound the message and themes of the book were for them to shine through even this bungled satire. The ancient ideas of honour, duty, and self sacrifice can strike a chord with anyone.

All that aside though, it’s important to stress that Heinlein’s Federation is basically built on Roman Republicanism with American characteristics. It more successfully emulates Ancient Rome in some ways than Fascism itself did!
 
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Having rewatched the movie recently because of the hot takes going around about it (and because action-slop sci-fi is something I'm down with)...I'll try to be charitable to Verhoven--because he DID, intentionally or not, make an action movie that still HAS people making hot-takes and arguing over it after a quarter-century. That's impressive.

The trouble for Verhoven's vision is that the script undermines it and...Well, the original material the movie is based on periodically shines through despite the 'fascist' window-dressing of uniforms or even laws and some aspects of the society we're shown--the in-universe propaganda/commercials is where most of the questionable things happen while Rico's story and the presentation of it is split from those and emphasizes personal responsibility for oneself and for the group one's part od, the use of violence for causes beyond personal survival or personal goals, military camaraderie and self-sacrifice for others and/or causes beyond oneself. Which...Yes, fascists and authoritarians and bad guys can have all those things, but at a certain point it becomes 'Hitler also ate vegetables' level of silly--especially with an opponent never shown in any positive light--explicitly or even by implication.

In Rico's storyline the distinction between citizen and civilian is purely academic at the start when Earth is at peace--to the degree that his father dismisses the status entirely as unnecessary. While we get a minute-long presentation of a biology teacher that expresses admiration for the bugs collectivist ideology and everyone knowing their place and whatnot that sounds questionable...We also get *more* of Radzik who in class and personally to Rico urges him to make up his own mind and think for himself (which he doesn't do). While there are shades there where you might make the case of that trend continuing (Rico mimicking Radzik's command style and words to new recruits at the end) and that being a big deal...You can make a stronger case of it being not mindless imitation and subservience to the collective good and etcetera fascism that is coming to the fore there but instead a very personalized and individual memorialization of the dead and taking on of a better role with more responsibility where more thought is needed.

There's just...always something undercutting the 'authoritarian' messaging? The schooling shown is no more authoritarian than your average high school (arguably less so), boot camp when Johnny goes can be left at any time, corporal punishment of Rico is pretty fucked-up but...that's not exactly a solely fascist thing and Rico did commit involuntary manslaughter (where murder gets you chair'd after a one-day trial?), and we're never shown boot camp's whole voluntary nature being ended. Children require permits, as we learn in the showers, but being a citizen only makes the process easier instead of being a guarantee (as Rico demonstrates himself). New recruits are shown being younger than Rico and the others, but they aren't noted as being conscripted so we're left to presume nothing changed there...Even Neil Patrick Harris' fashy-dressing psychic character is implied at the end to have potentially 'messaged' Rico about where to go on a rescue-mission that contradicted orders to track the brain-bug--Valuing individual connection and personal priorities over the good of the mission/species...And HE'S the character making a 'good of the species' argument midway through the movie.

Admittedly, that last is entirely open to interpretation, but even if it isn't the case...Rico disobeyed orders and it's presented heroically and isn't called-out by anyone. Which may not be how a military would function, but certainly doesn't make the Federation look more/overly authoritarian in an easy moment where it COULD be. The film banks on background 'not everyone can vote', 'the one trial referenced is immediate death penalty', and 'they kill bugs without moral compunction' doing all the heavy lifting of making a fascist dystopia, while explicitly squashing the idea of there being any 'second-class citizens' despite the explicit existence of EXACTLY THAT.

It's hypocritical, I guess, in short. And, paradoxically for a MOVIE, it suffers from telling and not showing of the supposed fascism...And the attempts at showing made are very 'telling' in nature (LOOK! The psychic has on a black trenchcoat and peaked-cap that looks vaguely-SS-ish, the Federation must be the baddies!).

Verhoven seems to believe fascism is nationalism + militarism + maybe-speciesism (the bugs make a shitty allegory in this vein because they aren't humanized ever, so...).
Really I think the problem, why the "obvious" message Verhoven wanted to express failed to register so greatly, is he went very Meta. The movie is essentially supposed to be a "fascist" utopia, how Verhoven thinks Nazi's would present themselves in this great propagandistic war film. So we're supposed to identify with the Bugs *because* the film presents them as one-dimensional villains. We're supposed to look at that and go "Wow, that's exactly how Nazi's would have portrayed Jews/Communists/Gays/Etc" and therefore conclude the Bugs must be the oppressed good guys. And under that rubric of course the Federation looks sinister because obviously a fascist war movie would condone and justify their mistreatment of the "other" by casting themselves in the most heroic light.

The movie feels disjointed in its messaging because ultimately this isn't a movie that your supposed to think through but more one based around emotions. Hence why it so often feels the fascism is surface detail, merely uniforms and the like, because that's all you need to know who your supposed to root for rather than individually deciding why you should.

Which, ironically, is a mentality, that surface details determine one's morality, very much at home with those wacky Nazi's.
 
Having rewatched the movie recently because of the hot takes going around about it (and because action-slop sci-fi is something I'm down with)...I'll try to be charitable to Verhoven--because he DID, intentionally or not, make an action movie that still HAS people making hot-takes and arguing over it after a quarter-century. That's impressive.

The trouble for Verhoven's vision is that the script undermines it and...Well, the original material the movie is based on periodically shines through despite the 'fascist' window-dressing of uniforms or even laws and some aspects of the society we're shown--the in-universe propaganda/commercials is where most of the questionable things happen while Rico's story and the presentation of it is split from those and emphasizes personal responsibility for oneself and for the group one's part od, the use of violence for causes beyond personal survival or personal goals, military camaraderie and self-sacrifice for others and/or causes beyond oneself. Which...Yes, fascists and authoritarians and bad guys can have all those things, but at a certain point it becomes 'Hitler also ate vegetables' level of silly--especially with an opponent never shown in any positive light--explicitly or even by implication.

In Rico's storyline the distinction between citizen and civilian is purely academic at the start when Earth is at peace--to the degree that his father dismisses the status entirely as unnecessary. While we get a minute-long presentation of a biology teacher that expresses admiration for the bugs collectivist ideology and everyone knowing their place and whatnot that sounds questionable...We also get *more* of Radzik who in class and personally to Rico urges him to make up his own mind and think for himself (which he doesn't do). While there are shades there where you might make the case of that trend continuing (Rico mimicking Radzik's command style and words to new recruits at the end) and that being a big deal...You can make a stronger case of it being not mindless imitation and subservience to the collective good and etcetera fascism that is coming to the fore there but instead a very personalized and individual memorialization of the dead and taking on of a better role with more responsibility where more thought is needed.

There's just...always something undercutting the 'authoritarian' messaging? The schooling shown is no more authoritarian than your average high school (arguably less so), boot camp when Johnny goes can be left at any time, corporal punishment of Rico is pretty fucked-up but...that's not exactly a solely fascist thing and Rico did commit involuntary manslaughter (where murder gets you chair'd after a one-day trial?), and we're never shown boot camp's whole voluntary nature being ended. Children require permits, as we learn in the showers, but being a citizen only makes the process easier instead of being a guarantee (as Rico demonstrates himself). New recruits are shown being younger than Rico and the others, but they aren't noted as being conscripted so we're left to presume nothing changed there...Even Neil Patrick Harris' fashy-dressing psychic character is implied at the end to have potentially 'messaged' Rico about where to go on a rescue-mission that contradicted orders to track the brain-bug--Valuing individual connection and personal priorities over the good of the mission/species...And HE'S the character making a 'good of the species' argument midway through the movie.

Admittedly, that last is entirely open to interpretation, but even if it isn't the case...Rico disobeyed orders and it's presented heroically and isn't called-out by anyone. Which may not be how a military would function, but certainly doesn't make the Federation look more/overly authoritarian in an easy moment where it COULD be. The film banks on background 'not everyone can vote', 'the one trial referenced is immediate death penalty', and 'they kill bugs without moral compunction' doing all the heavy lifting of making a fascist dystopia, while explicitly squashing the idea of there being any 'second-class citizens' despite the explicit existence of EXACTLY THAT.

It's hypocritical, I guess, in short. And, paradoxically for a MOVIE, it suffers from telling and not showing of the supposed fascism...And the attempts at showing made are very 'telling' in nature (LOOK! The psychic has on a black trenchcoat and peaked-cap that looks vaguely-SS-ish, the Federation must be the baddies!).

Verhoven seems to believe fascism is nationalism + militarism + maybe-speciesism (the bugs make a shitty allegory in this vein because they aren't humanized ever, so...).

For the civilian-citizen divide, there are deleted scenes from earlier in the movie which show that Carmen's parents didn't approve of her dating Johnny Rico because Carmen's parents looked down on Johnny's family because they were civilians, not citizens. This in turn would've been more motivation for Johnny to enlist since that was another impediment to his relationship with Carmen.
 
For the civilian-citizen divide, there are deleted scenes from earlier in the movie which show that Carmen's parents didn't approve of her dating Johnny Rico because Carmen's parents looked down on Johnny's family because they were civilians, not citizens. This in turn would've been more motivation for Johnny to enlist since that was another impediment to his relationship with Carmen.
Yes and? In the democratic nations there is also a class divide, and people from higher classes might look down on and disapprove of their daughters dating lower class men. Unless your plan is communism to make everyone the same that means nothing.

If a class system will arise then the thing you should do is make it so that the virtuous rise to the top instead of the evil, or the lucky at birth.
 

So CZ made a big post about the nature of the Terran Federation and citizens versus civilians in the movie and so I stated there was a deleted scene in the movie talking about how some citizens looked down on civilians as an addition to what she had posted in order to add more information about what she was talking about.

Do you understand now?
 
well yeah the citizen civilian divide would be a thing. Citizens would likely view the Civilians as leeches who chose the easy path to avoid responsibility. Civilians would view the Citizens as kinda crazy fanatics who were willing to risk their lives over something that doesn't matter because you get most of the benefits without any of the hassle by just not enlisting. so the divide would be there and mostly just be social stigma between the two groups.
 
So CZ made a big post about the nature of the Terran Federation and citizens versus civilians in the movie and so I stated there was a deleted scene in the movie talking about how some citizens looked down on civilians as an addition to what she had posted in order to add more information about what she was talking about.

Do you understand now?
Ahh you were talking to CZ. I thought you were just talking about the OP in general and saying it's bad that veterans were looking down on civillians.
 
well yeah the citizen civilian divide would be a thing. Citizens would likely view the Civilians as leeches who chose the easy path to avoid responsibility. Civilians would view the Citizens as kinda crazy fanatics who were willing to risk their lives over something that doesn't matter because you get most of the benefits without any of the hassle by just not enlisting. so the divide would be there and mostly just be social stigma between the two groups.

Yeah... I found the scene on YouTube. It also reinforces that being a wealthy civilian is obviously a good insulation for civilians to have and obviously, being wealthy probably mitigates a lot of the disadvantages a citizen might have in that society.

(first minute of the video)



The literal statement Carmen makes is "It's not you, it's your parents. They're not citizens. They have money so they don't need to be citizens."

Leaving in that scene probably could've fuel a planetful of tanker bug ree'ing about how the Terran Confederation is fascist. :p
 
Also I find it hilarious how everyone just stopped reading my post once they saw the word "fascist" and failed to read the words "or fascistic" directly next to it :p
 
Also I find it hilarious how everyone just stopped reading my post once they saw the word "fascist" and failed to read the words "or fascistic" directly next to it :p
There is a more accurate term for "fascistic": socialistic. Or specifically, nationalistic revolutionary socialism.

I do not recall anything in the movie that portrays the Federation as being socialistic, much less revolutionary. Out of three requirements, you can only make a case for "nationalistic", and even that is a stretch.
 
There is a more accurate term for "fascistic": socialistic. Or specifically, nationalistic revolutionary socialism.

I do not recall anything in the movie that portrays the Federation as being socialistic, much less revolutionary. Out of three requirements, you can only make a case for "nationalistic", and even that is a stretch.
Lot of this is highly debatable as what you are talking about is closer to Nazism than socialism or fascism. :/ What you are describing is a specific type of fascism with social characteristics, I was talking about fascism and fascist-leaning ideologies more in generally.
 
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Lot of this is highly debatable as what you are talking about is closer to Nazism than socialism or fascism. :/ What you are describing is a specific type of fascism with social characteristics, I was talking about fascism and fascist-leaning ideologies more in generally.
Fascism without socialism is not fascism. Socialism is a fundamental aspect of fascism, regardless of whether you are talking about Mussolini, Pavelic, or even Hitler (who is about as much of a fascist as Stalin was, btw).
 
Real life military ranks are basically a bunch of nepotism bullshit, what makes you think Starship Troopers is any different?

800px-Admiral_Rachel_L._Levine.jpg
This person is not a member of the military but is an "admiral" of the public health corps
 
This person is not a member of the military but is an "admiral" of the public health corps
Ah but you see Poe, they are part of the uniformed services! WHICH MUST MEAN MILITARY!!!!!
Oh but unlike the military the public health Corp does not have a chain to work up or ranks and can be appointed head.
Where as even General Milley had to work his way up to general
 
Why are the leftoids getting all excited because of a decades old movie again?

Did Helldivers 2 make them remember it or something?

Also, for those who support them, I have only one thing to say, creepy WEF libtard overlord orders: Eat zhe boogs!
 
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Why are the leftoids getting all excited because of a decades old movie again?

Did Helldivers 2 make them remember it or something?

Also, for those who support them, I have only one thing to say, creepy WEF libtard overlord orders: Eat zhe boogs!
People already eat the bugs. Hell in the 18th century there was a law where servants were only to eat lobster 3 times a week.
 
People already eat the bugs. Hell in the 18th century there was a law where servants were only to eat lobster 3 times a week.
I wonder how the Arachnids will taste cooked. :ROFLMAO:
 

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