Movies Starship Troopers: The bugs did nothing wrong

[Simonbob]

1. The actual Klendathu Invasion. They literally just tried to Imperial Guard the entire planet with infantry dropships. This wasn't a case of the "Normandy Beaches" where they had to send in infantry first, it was their first choice. Even against an enemy seen to be nothing but insects, this is just callous. And stupid.

That, I'll agree with.

2. Whiskey Outpost. They suspected there might be a Brain Bug on Planet P, yet they basically sacrificed Razak's Roughnecks (later Rico's Roughnecks) just to confirm their suspicions. Carl even admits this, basically saying "I'm sorry this was your unit; this mission had a very low survival-rate" and justified it with a "we're in it for the species" speech. They knew, dude.

I disagree that this is proof of anything other than needing to risk to win. War can be like that.

3. Razak himself shooting one of his troopers instead of the Hopper. Yes, it can be argued that he was mercy killing the trooper who was being torn apart (which I agree with), but the fact he did it after literally a second to consider whether the trooper was worth saving by killing the Hopper and expected (and had it done) the same mercy to be given to him? It says something about the MI and their priorities. At a stretch, you could even say they see themselves as disposable cogs in the machine, which is backed up by the constant propaganda to get more bodies in the MI and Fleet.

That's more mixed. I know that just giving a trooper morphene and letting them die has happened, and that was legal. It's pretty much the same thing.



You're mixing war stuff with fascism, sometimes.

4. It's heavily implied that unless you're a citizen in the film (having served in the MI or Fleet), you're a second class, well, citizen. You can't even have children, can't vote, and many after-career jobs are blocked from you (shower scene, the classroom scene early on in the movie, et cetera). If you're a civilian? Well, tough shit; enjoy being the ignored underclass unless you're rich (Rico's parents) enough to basically coast through life without the "responsibilities" of being a citizen (which is still frowned upon, given Dizzy's reaction in training when Rico tries to quit). Again, this is indicative of the cultural attitude that you're looked on as being a parasite if you're not a citizen.

Johnny's parents weren't citizens, they were rich, could travel, etc.

They were against him enlisting, too. That's not very underclass-ish.


I think you're wrong, based on the film. I also think that any real world attempt would have civilians as an underclass. But, we don't see that in the film, exactly.

5. Dude, the entire Federation is a fucking parody of a fascist and hyper-militaristic state! The classroom scene even goes on about the "collapse of Democracy" and basically hyping up their current, militaristic government as being superior!
The film was so good at it that people actually thought, and some still think, that the film was pro-fascism! facepalm
Also, just look at the uniforms; the creatives behind the film have said that they based the designs on Nazi Germany's uniforms, and this is even more blatant with the uniforms of the higher ups, like those in command and intelligence (such as Carl and his not-SS).

That was the directors intent. But, the director failed at that, and didn't understand what facisim is.

It's not like our current "democratic" system's working all that well.

6. Hell, the propaganda alone for the civilians/citizens on Earth is a perfect example: I'm pretty sure those "Mormon Extremists" were just regular Mormons who were trying to live away from the Federation, and they were so desperate to do it they tried their luck in the AQZ.
Edit: Or were they just normal Mormons labeled as being "extremists" because they're persecuted by the State for just being non-conformist?

We don't know anything about them. Are they just misunderstood? Are they monsters? Are they just idiots? No clue.

We don't have enough details to tell, so they should be ignored.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

Johnny's parents weren't citizens, they were rich, could travel, etc.

They were against him enlisting, too. That's not very underclass-ish.

You can be rich yet not have any political power, look at China. They were against him enlisting because the attrition rates are laughably high, except nobody seems to pay that any mind, despite the endless cripples running around the place.
Most civilians think it's great and honorable to join up, but the smarter people all basically recognize that unless you're in starfleet or intelligence. You're probably coming home in a casket, if you're lucky.

 

[King Arts]

You can be rich yet not have any political power, look at China. They were against him enlisting because the attrition rates are laughably high, except nobody seems to pay that any mind, despite the endless cripples running around the place.
Most civilians think it's great and honorable to join up, but the smarter people all basically recognize that unless you're in starfleet or intelligence. You're probably coming home in a casket, if you're lucky.

And? Why should cowards get any political power? Not all men are created equal, only those of virtue deserve the benefits of citizenship. And being willing to work for the common good is a better indicator than being born in society, or being wealthy.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

And? Why should cowards get any political power? Not all men are created equal, only those of virtue deserve the benefits of citizenship. And being willing to work for the common good is a better indicator than being born in society, or being wealthy.

Because refusing to be thrown into a meatgrinder isn't cowardice, it's common sense. Especially when every engagement on screen is on a non-human planet. Enlist when they're invading Mars or something.
It's basically Space Vietnam, a war that shouldn't have taken place.
Not to mention the fact that nobody speaks of the previous wars indicates they were pretty stupid and pointless as well, and it crippled the older generation pretty badly.

 

[King Arts]

Because refusing to be thrown into a meatgrinder isn't cowardice, it's common sense. Especially when every engagement on screen is on a non-human planet. Enlist when they're invading Mars or something.
It's basically Space Vietnam, a war that shouldn't have taken place.
Not to mention the fact that nobody speaks of the previous wars indicates they were pretty stupid and pointless as well, and it crippled the older generation pretty badly.

I mean there is a difference between ww1 a war between humans where the worst that can happen to the British is that they lose relavence and Germans are now dominant. Vs in starship troopers where the other side are literal insects, you can't easily communicate with them you can't marry one like you could a German woman, and they might eat you. Germans generally don't eat humans.

You can argue the way the war is fought is dumb. But it's not corrupt like on earth militaries in world war 1 where the rulers did not fight. After all the monarchs did not go in the trenches. In the federation the Sky Marshal who is the president the commander in chief the highest rank in government. Had to be a member of and work his way up the ranks of both the navy, ad the mobile infantry. So all the sky marshals used to be privates in the mobile infantry.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

You can argue the way the war is fought is dumb. But it's not corrupt like on earth militaries in world war 1 where the rulers did not fight. After all the monarchs did not go in the trenches. In the federation the Sky Marshal who is the president the commander in chief the highest rank in government. Had to be a member of and work his way up the ranks of both the navy, ad the mobile infantry. So all the sky marshals used to be privates in the mobile infantry.

Real life military ranks are basically a bunch of nepotism bullshit, what makes you think Starship Troopers is any different?

 

[Husky_Khan]

Real life military ranks are basically a bunch of nepotism bullshit, what makes you think Starship Troopers is any different?

Hell yeah!

We're in it for the species boys and girls!

 

[King Arts]

Real life military ranks are basically a bunch of nepotism bullshit, what makes you think Starship Troopers is any different?

Because as I've said before, the governments in the western world are not democracies. They never were. They were oligarchies from the start.

Ironically by limiting the franchise the power of the citizens are stronger the actual voters can't be hoodwinked.

Also again starship troopers sky marshal is not nepotism, after he steps down and accepts responsibility I'm pretty sure he get's flogged. Imagine any of our leaders being whipped for the shit that happened in the middle east or Vietnam.

 

[King Arts]

Hell yeah!

We're in it for the species boys and girls!

Your picture and quote are messed up.

 

[Husky_Khan]

Your picture and quote are messed up.

Or is it?

 

[Crom's Black Blade]

Because refusing to be thrown into a meatgrinder isn't cowardice, it's common sense. Especially when every engagement on screen is on a non-human planet. Enlist when they're invading Mars or something.

So were the Allies the bad guys because of the strategic bombing of Germany? D-Day? It isn't like France belongs to Britain or the US after all. Are only defensive wars allowed?

You can be rich yet not have any political power

Okay couple of errors here. One, only citizens wield political power in the Federation. Civilians have not earned that privilege/burden. What you are actually trying to state is that you can belong to a group that is over all disadvantage but you yourself, due to wealth, can insulate yourself from that. Ie a Liberal would say Oprah is stupidly rich yet Blacks as a whole are marginalized in society. Now I don't think I fully agree with that argument but that is, roughly, the argument you are trying to push.

Second, your argument, as always, rests on demanding we disprove what you haven't remotely proven to be true. If you want to argue civilians are 2nd class citizens in the Federation it falls to you to prove that not us to disprove your baseless assertions. A lot of things *could* be true when we have limited, incomplete information but that doesn't mean they necessarily are.


We can go in depth on the merits or demerits on the particular requirement for franchise in the Federation but the concept of limited itself is hardly unique. Any represented society will put some limits on who can vote be that age, citizenship ect. Frankly forcing people to have a "stake" and make a commitment before being able to exercise power isn't the worst idea in the universe.

In this case Rico's father shows few, if any, signs of being a 2nd class citizens. Indeed the only limitations we know the Federation imposes is a civilian can't vote, can't go into politics which considering the former is a fairly logical decision and have a harder time qualifying to have children. I would agree that last one is a little disquieting but from what little information we have its hard to qualify. How hard is "hard" in this context.

 

[Trace Coburn]

That was the directors intent. But, the director failed at that, and didn't understand what [fascism] is.

Uh... without wanting to interrupt a perfectly good diatribe, for a good chunk of Paul Verhoven's childhood his home country, the Netherlands, was under Nazi occupation. He got a pretty good first-hand view of fascism, mostly from under the sole of a jackboot.

Other than that, I think it might be best if I refrain from comment on this particular topic. People are already getting too heated in here for my tastes, and considering what some of them are defending, that's... unsettling.

 

[Aldarion]

Uh... without wanting to interrupt a perfectly good diatribe, for a good chunk of Paul Verhoven's childhood his home country, the Netherlands, was under Nazi occupation. He got a pretty good first-hand view of fascism, mostly from under the sole of a jackboot.

That doesn't mean he understands what fascism is (nevermind that Nazism and Fascism are, in fact, different ideologies).

Also, guy didn't even read the book before writing screenplay. So yeah.

EDIT: Plus, he is just an idiot generally.

 

[Blasterbot]

Wow. lots of people literally do not understand what fascism is if they think that Starship Troopers is a fascist state. this bodes poorly for anyone's ability to identify it in the future.

 

[Captain X]

Uh... without wanting to interrupt a perfectly good diatribe, for a good chunk of Paul Verhoven's childhood his home country, the Netherlands, was under Nazi occupation. He got a pretty good first-hand view of fascism, mostly from under the sole of a jackboot.

Other than that, I think it might be best if I refrain from comment on this particular topic. People are already getting too heated in here for my tastes, and considering what some of them are defending, that's... unsettling.

He also equivocated the Americans with the Nazis. This tells me that he doesn't really understand what fascism is and has the stereotypical "liberal" idea of what it is instead.

 

[IndyFront]

That doesn't mean he understands what fascism is (nevermind that Nazism and Fascism are, in fact, different ideologies).

Also, guy didn't even read the book before writing screenplay. So yeah.

EDIT: Plus, he is just an idiot generally.

He also equivocated the Americans with the Nazis. This tells me that he doesn't really understand what fascism is and has the stereotypical "liberal" idea of what it is instead.

The point ya'll keep intentionally missing is that they were intended to be fascist in the movie, regardless of his understanding of fascism (probably better than anyone here, but I digress). Now, you can argue that it is preferable to side with the Fascist Human faction over the murderous commie bugs, that's fine. But the point is that they were intended to be fascist or at the very least fascistic in the film.

 

[Blasterbot]

The point ya'll keep intentionally missing is that they were intended to be fascist in the movie, regardless of his understanding of fascism (probably better than anyone here, but I digress). Now, you can argue that it is preferable to side with the Fascist Human faction over the murderous commie bugs, that's fine. But the point is that they were intended to be fascist or at the very least fascistic in the film.

It really clearly isn't. it is like someone decided that if you wear anything from hugo boss and look attractive you are a fascist. and then made a movie with that understanding. and then after the fact was confused why nobody hated the nazis as much as he wanted them to when they fought a literal horde of genocidal bugs that there was no ability to negotiate with. actually read up on fascism if you want to argue that point.

 

[Captain X]

The point ya'll keep intentionally missing is that they were intended to be fascist in the movie, regardless of his understanding of fascism (probably better than anyone here, but I digress). Now, you can argue that it is preferable to side with the Fascist Human faction over the murderous commie bugs, that's fine. But the point is that they were intended to be fascist or at the very least fascistic in the film.

Actually my argument is that the movie repeatedly undermines itself in that regard. Kind of like how on Enterprise they kept claiming that Captain Archer was a trained diplomat and a great leader.

 

[Aldarion]

The point ya'll keep intentionally missing is that they were intended to be fascist in the movie, regardless of his understanding of fascism (probably better than anyone here, but I digress). Now, you can argue that it is preferable to side with the Fascist Human faction over the murderous commie bugs, that's fine. But the point is that they were intended to be fascist or at the very least fascistic in the film.

Thing is, I don't care what they were intended to be. Because it doesn't matter. He can daydream whatever the hell he wants, be on drugs, whatever. But when you make a movie, you make it for the audience. And at that point only two things matter: 1) what audience understands from it and 2) what is factually correct.

Director's intent? Completely irrelevant.

 

[prinCZess]

Having rewatched the movie recently because of the hot takes going around about it (and because action-slop sci-fi is something I'm down with)...I'll try to be charitable to Verhoven--because he DID, intentionally or not, make an action movie that still HAS people making hot-takes and arguing over it after a quarter-century. That's impressive.

The trouble for Verhoven's vision is that the script undermines it and...Well, the original material the movie is based on periodically shines through despite the 'fascist' window-dressing of uniforms or even laws and some aspects of the society we're shown--the in-universe propaganda/commercials is where most of the questionable things happen while Rico's story and the presentation of it is split from those and emphasizes personal responsibility for oneself and for the group one's part od, the use of violence for causes beyond personal survival or personal goals, military camaraderie and self-sacrifice for others and/or causes beyond oneself. Which...Yes, fascists and authoritarians and bad guys can have all those things, but at a certain point it becomes 'Hitler also ate vegetables' level of silly--especially with an opponent never shown in any positive light--explicitly or even by implication.

In Rico's storyline the distinction between citizen and civilian is purely academic at the start when Earth is at peace--to the degree that his father dismisses the status entirely as unnecessary. While we get a minute-long presentation of a biology teacher that expresses admiration for the bugs collectivist ideology and everyone knowing their place and whatnot that sounds questionable...We also get *more* of Radzik who in class and personally to Rico urges him to make up his own mind and think for himself (which he doesn't do). While there are shades there where you might make the case of that trend continuing (Rico mimicking Radzik's command style and words to new recruits at the end) and that being a big deal...You can make a stronger case of it being not mindless imitation and subservience to the collective good and etcetera fascism that is coming to the fore there but instead a very personalized and individual memorialization of the dead and taking on of a better role with more responsibility where more thought is needed.

There's just...always something undercutting the 'authoritarian' messaging? The schooling shown is no more authoritarian than your average high school (arguably less so), boot camp when Johnny goes can be left at any time, corporal punishment of Rico is pretty fucked-up but...that's not exactly a solely fascist thing and Rico did commit involuntary manslaughter (where murder gets you chair'd after a one-day trial?), and we're never shown boot camp's whole voluntary nature being ended. Children require permits, as we learn in the showers, but being a citizen only makes the process easier instead of being a guarantee (as Rico demonstrates himself). New recruits are shown being younger than Rico and the others, but they aren't noted as being conscripted so we're left to presume nothing changed there...Even Neil Patrick Harris' fashy-dressing psychic character is implied at the end to have potentially 'messaged' Rico about where to go on a rescue-mission that contradicted orders to track the brain-bug--Valuing individual connection and personal priorities over the good of the mission/species...And HE'S the character making a 'good of the species' argument midway through the movie.

Admittedly, that last is entirely open to interpretation, but even if it isn't the case...Rico disobeyed orders and it's presented heroically and isn't called-out by anyone. Which may not be how a military would function, but certainly doesn't make the Federation look more/overly authoritarian in an easy moment where it COULD be. The film banks on background 'not everyone can vote', 'the one trial referenced is immediate death penalty', and 'they kill bugs without moral compunction' doing all the heavy lifting of making a fascist dystopia, while explicitly squashing the idea of there being any 'second-class citizens' despite the explicit existence of EXACTLY THAT.

It's hypocritical, I guess, in short. And, paradoxically for a MOVIE, it suffers from telling and not showing of the supposed fascism...And the attempts at showing made are very 'telling' in nature (LOOK! The psychic has on a black trenchcoat and peaked-cap that looks vaguely-SS-ish, the Federation must be the baddies!).

Verhoven seems to believe fascism is nationalism + militarism + maybe-speciesism (the bugs make a shitty allegory in this vein because they aren't humanized ever, so...).